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Source: interviews/unlocking-human-and-machine-consciousness-with-steven-schrembeck.mp3
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00:00:00.200 Speaker 1 Welcome back to AI for Founders. I'm your host, Ryan Estis. I am not AI. Today's
00:00:05.660 Speaker 1 episode is a deep one. I'm joined by Stephen Schrembach, founder of Impossible Labs
00:00:10.300 Speaker 1 and a thinker at the intersection of AI, consciousness, and human meaning. But this
00:00:15.460 Speaker 1 isn't just another tech chat. Stephen's an explorer, blending software engineering
00:00:19.740 Speaker 1 with over 1,000 hours of meditation practice. We talk about brain-computer
00:00:24.220 Speaker 1 interface, sensory substitution, psychedelics, even close encounters with UFOs, my
00:00:30.320 Speaker 1 favorite stuff. It's a conversation that challenges assumptions about what's real,
00:00:34.840 Speaker 1 what's possible, and what it means to be human in a world rapidly reshaped by
00:00:39.280 Speaker 1 artificial intelligence. If you're curious about where technology ends and
00:00:42.820 Speaker 1 consciousness begins, or even if there's a boundary, then this episode is for you.
00:00:47.420 Speaker 1 Let's dive in. But first, some business. This episode is brought to you by
00:00:51.800 Speaker 1 Kickcaster, the podcast agency trusted by over 800 founders, executives, and thought
00:00:56.700 Speaker 1 leaders. If you're building a brand, raising capital, hiring top talent, or want to
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00:01:10.500 Speaker 1 conversations that convert. You don't need to cold pitch or chase opportunities. We
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00:01:24.400 Speaker 1 apply to become a guest today. Let's get your voice out there. That's Kickcaster by
00:01:29.260 Speaker 1 Moburst. [singing] AI alive tonight. Shining stars,
00:01:35.040 Speaker 1 computer light. AI, take the flight.
00:01:41.340 Speaker 1 In the glow of neon bright. All right, Stephen, how are you doing? Thanks for coming
00:01:46.320 Speaker 1 on the show.
00:01:49.080 Speaker 2 I'm having a pretty good day, actually. Just finished a run, so feeling pretty
00:01:52.480 Speaker 2 mellow. Did a long meditation. Ready to chat.
00:01:55.540 Speaker 1 Tremendous. And that's really what I want to speak with you to begin. I want to hear
00:01:59.500 Speaker 1 about all your projects, but, you know, w- when you became available for an
00:02:03.740 Speaker 1 interview, one thing really stood out, and that's this: the intersection of AI and
00:02:08.199 Speaker 1 human meaning, meditation research, brain-computer interfaces, and sensory
00:02:13.460 Speaker 1 substitution. So because you mentioned meditation, let's start there. What, what
00:02:18.600 Speaker 1 kind of meditation or... do you do?
00:02:22.820 Speaker 2 Um, I... At this point, I have my own spin on it. I don't follow a specific school
00:02:27.400 Speaker 2 or methodology, although I like to borrow from them. I do, uh, frankly, I do about
00:02:32.160 Speaker 2 an hour of meditation every morning. Uh, I've, I've probably got maybe 1,000 hours
00:02:36.780 Speaker 2 under my belt, so I'm not, like, a guru or anything, but for me, it's, like, two
00:02:40.820 Speaker 2 different things. It's-
00:02:42.160 Speaker 1 Okay
00:02:42.260 Speaker 2 ... this is how I reset myself. This is how I get my brain and body to function.
00:02:46.280 Speaker 2 Like, this is... It has a bigger effect than almost anything else I do in life, even
00:02:51.080 Speaker 2 than medications, anything like that, besides maybe sleep. And the other is, like,
00:02:55.840 Speaker 2 inner space exploration, right? It's that we've got this tool to explore what is
00:02:59.960 Speaker 2 reality, right? What is... How do we... How does consciousness interact with, you
00:03:05.060 Speaker 2 know, the physical world, and what are the rules? And so you got this tool to probe
00:03:08.920 Speaker 2 at, you know, what are the, the rules of experience. And I can't think of a better
00:03:13.520 Speaker 2 tool for exploration for, like, meaning and purpose and our place in the world, what
00:03:18.320 Speaker 2 matters, how it all works. So, I mean, that's the other big thing. That's what it is
00:03:22.420 Speaker 2 to me.
00:03:23.960 Speaker 1 Amazing. Okay. So you've got 1,000 hours under your belt. What brought you to the
00:03:28.060 Speaker 1 cushion?
00:03:31.120 Speaker 2 Well, I started out probably like a lot of people. It's, "Okay, I'll do 10 minutes
00:03:35.000 Speaker 2 here, 20 minutes here. I'll guilt trip myself into it. I'll take a couple months
00:03:38.620 Speaker 2 off." [laughs] It's a... You know, it was a, it was a thing you should do, you know?
00:03:43.180 Speaker 2 Um, and then at some point, I read, um, the autobiography from Michael Singer. I
00:03:49.140 Speaker 2 think it's The Surrender Experiment. Then I read his, um, his actual book after
00:03:52.980 Speaker 2 that. Um,
00:03:56.340 Speaker 2 the name escapes me at this point. Um, it'll come back. The Untethered Soul. Uh, and
00:04:00.880 Speaker 2 he talked about just, like, "Oh, I did, like, this two-hour meditation and had this
00:04:04.400 Speaker 2 profound, like, experience." And I'm like, "What? You can do that just by sitting
00:04:08.940 Speaker 2 there?" [laughs] Like, I had no idea that this was even a thing. Very naïve at this
00:04:13.260 Speaker 2 point in time. Didn't know anything about, you know, you know, yoga traditions or
00:04:17.220 Speaker 2 the yogis or, you know, there's paths to enlightenment or th- different techniques
00:04:21.640 Speaker 2 or any of the altered states that are possible without psychedelics or anything,
00:04:26.360 Speaker 2 right? No intervention at all. The things you can do with just your own mind and
00:04:29.900 Speaker 2 where you put your attention and your concentration is crazy, and I had no idea you
00:04:35.040 Speaker 2 could reach these kinds of experiences or, like, insight just by sitting there
00:04:39.860 Speaker 2 properly, and that's really what brought me in is this fascination. It's the same
00:04:43.340 Speaker 2 thing that draws me to technology. It's like, I gotta know. I gotta play with it.
00:04:46.500 Speaker 2 I'm curious. I need to know the rules, and can I do some engineering [laughs] with
00:04:50.480 Speaker 2 it once I understand how it works? So, yeah, that's, that's what pulled me in.
00:04:54.140 Speaker 1 Amazing. And then when you're sitting, you said you're pulling from multiple
00:04:57.820 Speaker 1 traditions, uh, but nothing in particular. What are you doing when you're, when
00:05:02.540 Speaker 1 you're meditating?
00:05:05.840 Speaker 2 So my basic protocol... Again, I, I... Sometimes it's, oh, I realize I'm angry and
00:05:10.500 Speaker 2 stressed out, and most of the session is just, like, resetting to zero, right?
00:05:13.360 Speaker 2 That's, that's not exciting. Um, my basic protocol, uh, draws, right, from the
00:05:19.260 Speaker 2 Yoga Sutras, right? It's, it's pretty simple. It is a process of letting go,
00:05:25.280 Speaker 2 attempting to find a center, and basically whatever you're putting your attention on
00:05:29.660 Speaker 2 is not the thing to put your attention on. And it is a process of progressively
00:05:33.380 Speaker 2 relaxing and moving your attention almost like a, like a knot. [laughs] You just
00:05:37.120 Speaker 2 continue to invert whatever you're looking at. Not without freaking out or anything,
00:05:41.160 Speaker 2 but it's basically moving from big, overt bodily sensations to, okay, now emotional.
00:05:46.280 Speaker 2 Now I'm aware of thoughts. It's a continual separation of, oh, that's not me. That's
00:05:50.980 Speaker 2 not me. That's not me, until there's nothing left but the sense of self, and then if
00:05:55.580 Speaker 2 you want to, you can try to keep going and have an ego death experience. That's,
00:06:00.300 Speaker 2 frankly, not a realistic goal for most sessions. It... I really don't enjoy it. I
00:06:04.900 Speaker 2 don't... It's not, like, a fun experience. But there are other... Sometimes I'll
00:06:08.560 Speaker 2 pick other targets for meditation depending on what I'm trying to do, but that's my,
00:06:12.520 Speaker 2 my go-to.
00:06:14.516 Speaker 1 Nice. Um, and why not choose a particular path?
00:06:20.536 Speaker 1 Why not zazen? Why not, um, you know, a mindfulness-based stress reduction?
00:06:26.376 Speaker 1 Why not Dzogchen? Is there, is there, uh, something you're gaining by not committing
00:06:32.256 Speaker 1 to a particular dogma?
00:06:36.196 Speaker 2 I am totally open to being naive, and-
00:06:38.056 Speaker 1 [laughs]
00:06:38.336 Speaker 2 ... I, I, probably a lot of these practitioners would be happy to tell me that. I
00:06:42.516 Speaker 2 just, something in me just is irked by dogma and authority and tradition, and this
00:06:48.316 Speaker 2 is the way it's done. I love to just come in, like, slurp up, "Okay, why does it
00:06:52.716 Speaker 2 work that way? How does it function? Let me try it myself." And I try, I wanna try
00:06:56.676 Speaker 2 to understand why the existing structures work i- in anything, really. And then I
00:07:01.516 Speaker 2 take it, and I leave the rest 'cause I'm completely uninterested in, "Well, we do
00:07:05.576 Speaker 2 this because it's the way. This is the next step. You don't get to progress. Now you
00:07:08.556 Speaker 2 gotta study these stupid koans for a long time." I don't think I'm gonna do that.
00:07:12.356 Speaker 2 I'm gonna follow my interest and my intuition, and that's what I'm gonna do. And I
00:07:16.016 Speaker 2 end up... I think that it can be detrimental, this mindset in life,
00:07:21.616 Speaker 2 because it causes you to, if you're not aware of what you're doing, to waste a bunch
00:07:26.876 Speaker 2 of cycles replicating work that other people have already figured out. However, you
00:07:30.816 Speaker 2 know, at some point, it's also where everything new comes from, are from people who
00:07:35.216 Speaker 2 are interested in defying what already exists, or reassembling or synthesizing from
00:07:39.716 Speaker 2 multiple sources. And that's, frankly, myself is interest, is, that's what
00:07:45.496 Speaker 2 draws me, is I wanna, I wanna learn it. I wanna do it myself, make it my own, or
00:07:50.316 Speaker 2 I'll just quit because it's boring.
00:07:52.916 Speaker 1 What a way. Um, do you mind if I share a little bit of my experience with
00:07:56.216 Speaker 1 meditation?
00:07:57.896 Speaker 2 Please. Yeah, this is a conversation. Let's hear it.
00:07:59.596 Speaker 1 You bet. So I, I started a- as a kid, you know. I was probably 16, 17, reading the
00:08:04.656 Speaker 1 Tao Te Ching, had a couple of books. This is before the internet. So I was doing my
00:08:08.796 Speaker 1 thing, and I didn't know if I was doing it right or whatever. And so intermittently-
00:08:12.616 Speaker 2 You were a hardcore kid. [laughs]
00:08:15.096 Speaker 1 I thought it was cool, man. I was into, like, you know, Jack Kerouac and stuff. I
00:08:18.596 Speaker 1 read The Dharma Bums. I was like, "Dude, I'm a Buddhist now. What's up?" Um, so, you
00:08:23.616 Speaker 1 know, uh, and I carried on and, and picked up, you know, little tips here and there.
00:08:27.196 Speaker 1 Never really knew what I was doing, but got pretty serious about it maybe, um, uh,
00:08:31.856 Speaker 1 10 years ago. And it's like, nope, you know what? This is my path. And a part of
00:08:35.716 Speaker 1 that was looking for a sangha. And so I was like, you know, on one side, I want
00:08:40.256 Speaker 1 further instruction for some of these mental techniques, but also, I'm an
00:08:44.136 Speaker 1 able-bodied man. And I think there's a community out there that could use a guy with
00:08:49.216 Speaker 1 a pickup truck. I mean, it's adorable that you go to your religion for something you
00:08:53.276 Speaker 1 believe in or something, but ultimately, you just need, like, a competent man or
00:08:57.156 Speaker 1 woman.
00:08:57.556 Speaker 2 [laughs]
00:08:58.076 Speaker 1 You know? So what I did is I went to all the different-
00:09:01.616 Speaker 2 Right
00:09:01.616 Speaker 1 ... um, temples here in Denver and, and Boulder and stuff, and basically, you know,
00:09:06.676 Speaker 1 interviewed them. Was like, "Hey, this is what I do. I'm interested in this. What do
00:09:09.596 Speaker 1 you think? What do you think I should do?" And every single one of them said, "You
00:09:13.976 Speaker 1 should stay here and do this with us." [laughs] And-
00:09:18.276 Speaker 2 I'll bet
00:09:18.676 Speaker 1 ... you know. And so, uh, I was kinda lo- leaning towards Shambhala, you know, which
00:09:22.716 Speaker 1 has, like, a great, uh, history in, in, uh, Boulder, and o- of course, um, you know,
00:09:29.476 Speaker 1 uh, a scandalous one. Well, the, it really blew up, like, right then. Like, the
00:09:34.376 Speaker 1 whole Shambhala thing came tumbling down. Lawsuits. I mean, what they were doing in
00:09:38.796 Speaker 1 the '60s and '70s were, was pretty awful, and it continued that behavior until
00:09:43.656 Speaker 1 present day. So to your point, kinda disillusioned and bitter by the whole thing.
00:09:49.096 Speaker 1 Now, what I did a few years ago is, it's still very part, uh, and central of who I
00:09:54.216 Speaker 1 am, meditating, but also, like, kinda studying these Buddhist traditions in s- in
00:09:57.896 Speaker 1 various different ways. So I went on a whole bunch of podcasts. Again, I have this
00:10:01.476 Speaker 1 kind of, like, seeker energy. So I went on a bunch of Buddhist podcasts and wanted
00:10:05.676 Speaker 1 to talk about bringing contemplative practice to business. And I was roundly
00:10:11.596 Speaker 1 rejected by, like-
00:10:12.836 Speaker 2 [laughs]
00:10:14.016 Speaker 1 ... a half a dozen. I'd do these interviews, and they'd be like, "You're not
00:10:17.676 Speaker 1 Buddhist," or, "You're not Buddhist enough," or, "You're not this or that." And I'm
00:10:20.456 Speaker 1 like, "Who are you?" You know? They wouldn't even air the episodes.
00:10:24.696 Speaker 2 You're talking to the wrong people, man.
00:10:26.056 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, I'm talking to a lot of different people. But, you know, I, I, I think
00:10:29.696 Speaker 1 there's value to a tradition. Um, y- I'm a martial artist, so I, I, but I'm a mixed
00:10:35.436 Speaker 1 martial artist, so I, I like to bring them all together. Um, so anyway, that, that's
00:10:40.376 Speaker 1 kind of my experience, and I, I've had, uh, the same thing. It's like, no, you know
00:10:43.736 Speaker 1 what? I'm gonna switch from Kundalini to, to Dzogchen techniques to, you know,
00:10:49.676 Speaker 1 just simple zazen is probably my favorite, what I do mostly on the cushion, and keep
00:10:54.616 Speaker 1 it moving. Now, the American Buddhist tradition, uh, is also very interesting to me,
00:11:00.516 Speaker 1 largely because it's marred in partying. So I don't think you can, you can, um,
00:11:06.696 Speaker 1 extract the, the American contemplative tradition without psychedelics,
00:11:12.796 Speaker 1 alcohol, and scandalous sex. And psychedelics in particular
00:11:18.396 Speaker 1 because this is, uh, it's non-consensual enlightenment in a way, where it
00:11:23.936 Speaker 1 confirms that there's a terrain to traverse, you know? Um, psychedelics aren't as
00:11:29.516 Speaker 1 much of an intoxicant as they are kind of a revealing of an inner landscape. And so,
00:11:34.916 Speaker 1 you know, at least for me, it was instrumental in, like, being like, "Whoa, there's
00:11:38.076 Speaker 1 something going on in here." Um, and then of course, you know, you can, you can find
00:11:42.756 Speaker 1 some of those states like you were talking about on the cushion, um, without all the
00:11:46.076 Speaker 1 fireworks, you know, which can be kinda distracting sometimes. So how about you?
00:11:50.456 Speaker 1 What was your experience with, with psychedelics, and, and how does that incorporate
00:11:54.356 Speaker 1 in any way to your sitting practice?
00:11:58.356 Speaker 2 Pretty limited. Um, so pretty much legal forms of, uh, marijuana and psilocybin.
00:12:04.636 Speaker 2 Um, so they're all not nearly as strong as the, uh, illicit
00:12:10.876 Speaker 2 compounds.
00:12:11.676 Speaker 1 Depends on where you are. Denver, a lot-
00:12:13.516 Speaker 2 Can't hear them. Yeah
00:12:13.896 Speaker 1 ... there, there's a lot legal in Denver
00:12:16.252 Speaker 2 [laughs] That's true. Um, so but, you know, enough to have a profoundly different
00:12:21.532 Speaker 2 experience, all right? We'll put it that way. Um, and but I did it after having done
00:12:27.072 Speaker 2 a lot of meditation and found that, to my great surprise, oh, there's nothing really
00:12:32.412 Speaker 2 new here. Now, I'm sure this is different if you're, uh, using DMT or something, uh,
00:12:37.812 Speaker 2 you're using the, that, what is it? That cactus or flower compound [laughs] out in
00:12:41.432 Speaker 2 the middle of a desert. I'm sure that's a different experience entirely. But for the
00:12:44.912 Speaker 2 most part, I was shocked to find, oh, this is, like, the same thing.
00:12:50.712 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:12:51.032 Speaker 2 Like, I've been here, right? This is, like, next door. And so I described it to
00:12:56.432 Speaker 2 others as like, okay, psychedelics is like strapping yourself to a rocket. You got
00:12:59.992 Speaker 2 no choice. You're on the ride.
00:13:01.212 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:13:01.672 Speaker 2 Uh, or you could learn how to fly, and you can go as slow as you want with an
00:13:05.632 Speaker 2 airplane. You could just sort of putter around on the runway. You could take off
00:13:08.872 Speaker 2 whenever you're ready. You could... You decide you don't like it, you can land
00:13:11.252 Speaker 2 again. Uh, it's so it's a useful thing, and probably better most of the time. But
00:13:16.612 Speaker 2 sometimes, some people, and I guess on purpose, you need a rocket launch to really,
00:13:21.292 Speaker 2 uh, kick yourself out of where you are.
00:13:23.132 Speaker 1 You get it started, to know that there's a there there. You know, all the, the
00:13:26.992 Speaker 1 great-
00:13:27.272 Speaker 2 Yeah
00:13:27.492 Speaker 1 ... you know, Jewish Buddhists in, in, uh, America, Jack Kornfield, and,
00:13:33.652 Speaker 1 um, what's, uh, Sharon, and all, all these guys and gals.
00:13:38.612 Speaker 2 All these guys.
00:13:38.992 Speaker 1 They all came out of the hippie movement, taking acid and being like, "Oh my God, I
00:13:41.672 Speaker 1 gotta go to India." You know, Ram Dass, all these guys.
00:13:45.052 Speaker 2 Ram Dass.
00:13:45.272 Speaker 1 Um, even the, what's his name? Uh, Timothy Leary. I mean, the, they all started
00:13:50.732 Speaker 1 there. Um, but to your point, it is a, a familiar place. And particularly with these
00:13:56.552 Speaker 1 contemplative traditions, why I do like studying kind of the, the Buddhist d-
00:14:01.332 Speaker 1 doctrines is because they're all about these lists, and they-
00:14:04.752 Speaker 2 Lists
00:14:04.912 Speaker 1 ... they love to, like, categorize stuff, but they plot the terrain.
00:14:08.752 Speaker 2 So much gamification.
00:14:09.932 Speaker 1 [laughs] Yeah. And y- they have hierarchies, you know, so they have these genre, or
00:14:13.612 Speaker 1 genres where you're like, okay, you're level one, you're level two, you're level
00:14:16.372 Speaker 1 three, you're level four. Um, and you can start to, like, figure out, like, what
00:14:21.152 Speaker 1 lives in these, or what is in these different realms and kind of how to traverse
00:14:26.551 Speaker 1 them, you know? Um, so it, it's fascinating. So meditation,
00:14:32.712 Speaker 1 y- you're doing an hour a day, which is quite a bit. Um, when do you like to, to do
00:14:37.512 Speaker 1 meditation?
00:14:38.072 Speaker 2 Right.
00:14:38.232 Speaker 1 And talk a little bit how it influences your life.
00:14:43.492 Speaker 2 Well, I, I didn't start that way, right? I, I started slowly increasing. But I
00:14:49.252 Speaker 2 noticed I was getting to m- more and more insight. It was profoundly affecting me.
00:14:53.332 Speaker 2 Like, it, at certain times, like, I was scrambling to this as a way to, to
00:14:59.252 Speaker 2 find insight. Like, to... The easiest way of describing it is it allows me to
00:15:05.092 Speaker 2 insulate myself from the world and to at least for... There's a half-life to it, but
00:15:09.772 Speaker 2 bring to my work, to my family interactions, everything I do to act from as
00:15:15.812 Speaker 2 innermost intention as you can have, right? It, I'm trying to make sure that the f-
00:15:19.812 Speaker 2 first and most important intentions I have for the day or my time, or even in
00:15:23.932 Speaker 2 response to things that I didn't expect, are coming from my values or from my, my
00:15:28.872 Speaker 2 desires and not what the world has sort of pushed into my field of view. So it
00:15:34.812 Speaker 2 has been an, an amazing tool for that. Um, so I found that the more I increased the
00:15:39.432 Speaker 2 time, uh, the better effects I got. Uh, and then at some point, just like
00:15:44.052 Speaker 2 long-distance running, you know, you, you connect the loop, the reward circuitry,
00:15:48.872 Speaker 2 and like, "Oh, this is helping me." And it no longer became a challenge, most of the
00:15:52.292 Speaker 2 time, uh, to sit down and do that time. I don't do it right as I wake up because I'm
00:15:56.532 Speaker 2 too tired, uh, and I'm cranky or, or I don't, I don't... Sort of foggy-headed. I
00:16:02.252 Speaker 2 usually do it a little later, uh, 8:00, between 8:00 and 10:00 AM. It's about two
00:16:06.592 Speaker 2 hours after waking or three or four hours after waking. Um, but yeah, so that, I
00:16:12.092 Speaker 2 mean, that's my schedule, and that's a lot of what it's for. And I, I often will
00:16:16.032 Speaker 2 just pick what I'm interested in, and I will pick a technique or a target of focus
00:16:21.232 Speaker 2 and just try stuff out. Um, there's definitely more to the story than that, but
00:16:25.312 Speaker 2 that's my, that's my schedule.
00:16:26.492 Speaker 1 I love it. W- and then when you say insights, maybe explain to people what you mean.
00:16:30.812 Speaker 1 What are insights in meditation?
00:16:35.372 Speaker 2 All right. So I mean, at, at risk of sounding like a crazy person, but I'm,
00:16:41.332 Speaker 2 I prefer to just be completely honest, and you c- think I'm a fool if you like. Uh,
00:16:46.152 Speaker 2 but so I, for a long time, you know, we'll say the first 200, 300
00:16:51.952 Speaker 2 sessions there, I was after, you know, some form of enlightenment. I was after
00:16:57.652 Speaker 2 trying to...
00:17:00.412 Speaker 2 I wanted the superpower of being able to walk through the world without being
00:17:03.212 Speaker 2 bothered by things so that I could act from what I thought was the right thing to do
00:17:08.252 Speaker 2 without being so attached to it. That's really what I was after. Not to just, like,
00:17:12.392 Speaker 2 transcend my body and start glowing and flying around or become, uh, like the Buddha
00:17:16.792 Speaker 2 or whatever. I had no interest in, like, leaving life. Uh, I wanted to be better in
00:17:22.812 Speaker 2 it, and that still is my goal. Uh, but then I had some very profound experiences.
00:17:28.592 Speaker 2 Uh, basically a couple pretty close UFO sightings that totally rocked my world. I'm
00:17:33.492 Speaker 2 like, "Holy crap, this isn't just a game." Like, we don't understand the world.
00:17:37.732 Speaker 2 Like, I don't know what this was, um, but it wasn't something that human beings
00:17:42.272 Speaker 2 made. Um, and I was definitely not crazy. Uh, or at least no more crazy than
00:17:47.592 Speaker 2 everyone else.
00:17:48.332 Speaker 1 Pause, pause, pause.
00:17:48.632 Speaker 2 And I realized-
00:17:49.992 Speaker 1 Tell me-
00:17:50.472 Speaker 2 Yep
00:17:50.612 Speaker 1 ... everything right about this. Tell me, tell me, tell me.
00:17:53.592 Speaker 2 Really?
00:17:53.912 Speaker 1 Yes.
00:17:54.432 Speaker 2 Okay. I, I'll, I'll s- I'll say that the, the punchline, and then we'll come back,
00:17:59.012 Speaker 2 is the punchline is that this caused me to get much more serious about the weird
00:18:03.152 Speaker 2 parts of meditation and using, exploring inner spaces as a tool for
00:18:08.652 Speaker 2 understanding what the heck is going on here. Why are we here? What's going on? Uh,
00:18:13.392 Speaker 2 why does... How does the world work? Um, and that- I mean, it totally derailed my,
00:18:18.756 Speaker 2 you know, startup intentions. And well, I won't say derailed. It, it shifted
00:18:22.096 Speaker 2 everything in my life, right? I- it's... Now I'm incorporating everything. Uh, so
00:18:25.856 Speaker 2 the UFO things, I've had three experiences. I don't need to go into great detail on
00:18:30.976 Speaker 2 some of them. Uh, the first one was just looking out my back window. I see, like,
00:18:35.316 Speaker 2 these weird flashing lights. They're just white orbs in the distance going across
00:18:38.736 Speaker 2 the skyline. Got a great view from my back window. I can see a very long distance.
00:18:43.516 Speaker 2 And they were... It was like a neural network. They were just firing in this
00:18:46.416 Speaker 2 sequence. It's very weird. Like, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo,
00:18:49.575 Speaker 2 doo. And they were not in a line. They're just, like, this cloud. It's very strange.
00:18:53.916 Speaker 2 Um, the second one, I was going for a run. This is maybe six months to a year after
00:18:58.876 Speaker 2 that. Going for a run, I see flying about a quarter of a mile a- behind my house. I
00:19:04.116 Speaker 2 was deep in a non-dualistic meditation at this point. I was watching a guy running.
00:19:09.116 Speaker 2 I'll put it that way. [laughs] And so, and I just see flying about a quarter mile
00:19:13.556 Speaker 2 behind myself, house, what looks like a black bean, like a kidney bean shape. I
00:19:18.736 Speaker 2 don't know how to... It was this weird matte black with a mother-of-pearl sheen,
00:19:23.016 Speaker 2 like a little rainbow sheen all over it. It could've been six feet tall. It's hard
00:19:26.556 Speaker 2 to tell 'cause the distance. It was just floating in a straight line. No sound. And
00:19:31.536 Speaker 2 not a... It was... I checked later. It was going against the wind by about 15 miles
00:19:35.476 Speaker 2 an hour. And that's it. It's just floating. I saw it for about six seconds, and that
00:19:40.676 Speaker 2 s- that started to rip me right back out of meditation.
00:19:43.096 Speaker 1 [laughs]
00:19:43.136 Speaker 2 Began to associate real quick. At first, I'm like, "I knew that would be there."
00:19:46.856 Speaker 2 That's the profound sense I had. I knew it would be there. And then I'm like, "Wait
00:19:51.376 Speaker 2 a minute. That doesn't make any sense. What, what am I looking at?" And then I
00:19:55.256 Speaker 2 started like, "I gotta go get, like, a mo- monocle." And then the third story, in a
00:20:00.096 Speaker 2 nutshell, is about four months ago. Me and my wife go for a walk every night, and,
00:20:04.436 Speaker 2 uh, we're in the neighborhood, and I just have this profound sense that we're gonna
00:20:07.716 Speaker 2 see something, which is, again, very weird. And it's sort of a cloudy night, and we
00:20:13.036 Speaker 2 see this white orb coming, and I think it's Venus. I think it's nothing. She's like,
00:20:17.216 Speaker 2 "That's not a star. That's not a planet. It's coming closer." I'm like, "No, it's
00:20:21.176 Speaker 2 not." Sure enough, it starts to come closer and closer, and now it's over the tree
00:20:25.856 Speaker 2 line. And I look through my 8X monocle, 'cause I have one now. At this point, it's
00:20:29.536 Speaker 2 happened twice, so I'm like, "I gotta start walking around with this thing." And
00:20:33.256 Speaker 2 it's a glowing white ball. I look through the 8X monocle. That's it. That's all it
00:20:38.116 Speaker 2 is, is a glowing white ball. There's no sound, and it flies over our heads. It goes
00:20:43.316 Speaker 2 across the tree line, starts to dis- accelerate. No sound at all. Uh, no other
00:20:47.536 Speaker 2 effects. And then it just lets out this plume of, like, white stuff behind it, like
00:20:52.396 Speaker 2 a comet, and it just... I wa- I stared at it, 'cause she turned around and said, "I
00:20:56.936 Speaker 2 gotta go get the kids. I gotta get a camera." And she ran. I knew to keep staring at
00:21:01.336 Speaker 2 it. I've read enough stories at this point.
00:21:02.776 Speaker 1 [laughs]
00:21:03.116 Speaker 2 Like, uh-uh, I'm watching this thing. Sure enough, as soon as she turns around, it
00:21:07.336 Speaker 2 fades out, just like turning the opacity down to zero.
00:21:09.636 Speaker 1 Wow.
00:21:09.776 Speaker 2 Like in a transition. It's gone. Phew. It's just gone. And that's it. So those are
00:21:15.316 Speaker 2 my experiences.
00:21:16.236 Speaker 1 Amazing. Do you think the orbs and the kidney bean thing are the same thing?
00:21:23.076 Speaker 2 Man, I got a lot of theories, but honestly, all I have are, are theories. You know,
00:21:27.576 Speaker 2 nobody's knocking on my door. I never got a book in the mail describing how it all
00:21:30.796 Speaker 2 works. It seems like... Honestly, it just seems like a prod, just a, like, a little
00:21:36.096 Speaker 2 poke from outside of what we think is real, the consensus real- what most people
00:21:41.176 Speaker 2 think exists. Just a little prod, just rattle the cage a little bit. Hey.
00:21:46.196 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:21:46.836 Speaker 2 Just enough to get me to take meditation seriously-
00:21:49.556 Speaker 1 [laughs]
00:21:50.176 Speaker 2 ... and to, you know, start looking into this. Honestly, that's what it looks like,
00:21:52.896 Speaker 2 is somebody from the outside looking at humans going, "You guys are screwed up.
00:21:57.296 Speaker 2 Hey," just a little slap.
00:21:58.996 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:21:59.156 Speaker 2 "There's, there's more out there. Go look."
00:22:00.896 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:22:01.176 Speaker 2 That's what I think, honestly.
00:22:02.576 Speaker 1 Well, and they've been flirting with all kinds of disclosures for years and years
00:22:05.896 Speaker 1 and years now. So I mean, it's coming, you know? It, it... And there's really...
00:22:11.476 Speaker 1 There's g- uh, just a couple of options. Either they're some kind of
00:22:14.216 Speaker 1 interdimensional travel beings, or they're from outside of the Earth in some kind of
00:22:19.136 Speaker 1 spacecraft. Or they're unbelievably old, and they've been here for a long time, and
00:22:24.136 Speaker 1 they just reemerge. Or they're some kind of drone technology that, that the
00:22:28.496 Speaker 1 government has, you know? [laughs] It's like, take your pick.
00:22:32.076 Speaker 2 Yeah. I'm not ruling out the last one, but I don't think it's that one exclusively-
00:22:37.276 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:22:37.276 Speaker 2 ... to be honest with you. Um, they... Uh, people think way too highly of the
00:22:41.736 Speaker 2 government. They think that-
00:22:42.836 Speaker 1 [laughs]
00:22:43.916 Speaker 2 ... this is... Also, why are you harassing this random guy-
00:22:46.796 Speaker 1 [laughs]
00:22:47.116 Speaker 2 ... with, like, weird... What are you using this money for? This is pretty dumb. I
00:22:50.476 Speaker 2 think it's pretty obviously, like, some sort of intelligent entities of some kind
00:22:56.696 Speaker 2 from another time, from another dimension, from other worlds, from our world, very
00:23:00.736 Speaker 2 old. Like, you don't have to violate physics as we know it. I think it's just there
00:23:04.436 Speaker 2 are more rules than we realized.
00:23:06.336 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:23:06.796 Speaker 2 Uh, more fundamental rules. And we're naive. We're babies in the universe, you know?
00:23:10.816 Speaker 2 Let's be humble.
00:23:11.216 Speaker 1 I, I agree. I, um, uh, my cousin is, has a, a, he's a doctor of physics
00:23:17.396 Speaker 1 and does physics work with, I, I think, like, neon gas or something. Way above my
00:23:22.896 Speaker 1 pay grade. But I saw him [laughs] last week. And I was like, "Hey, man, um, do you
00:23:28.496 Speaker 1 think the reason that there haven't been dramatic, uh, advancements in physics were,
00:23:33.416 Speaker 1 was because after Area 51 crashed, that, like, they black boxed all the physics
00:23:38.556 Speaker 1 while they were reverse engineering the UFOs?" And he was like, "What the hell are
00:23:41.816 Speaker 1 you talking about?"
00:23:42.716 Speaker 2 [laughs]
00:23:44.796 Speaker 1 I was like, "Dude, come on, man, I thought you would know." He, he, he did not. Um,
00:23:49.456 Speaker 1 but I, I-
00:23:50.056 Speaker 2 I wanted the inside scoop.
00:23:50.936 Speaker 1 [laughs] I love this idea. Um, and to kinda tie it into, like, the meditation, you
00:23:56.436 Speaker 1 know. Uh, some people might also say, "Well, Steven, you were in, like, a heightened
00:24:00.236 Speaker 1 state. You may have, like, hallucinated the whole thing." Um, because that is also a
00:24:05.496 Speaker 1 part of, uh, ascending in jhanas, is, like, you can reach places that, a celestial
00:24:10.776 Speaker 1 realm where, you know, the, the Tibetans describe all these amazing monsters and
00:24:15.556 Speaker 1 stuff like that. They all put orbs in absolutely everything. I, I'm kind of a
00:24:21.496 Speaker 1 student of, um, crystal balls. Because they are absolutely
00:24:27.384 Speaker 1 everywhere. In fact, I, that's what I use. You can see it back there next to the
00:24:31.644 Speaker 1 mirror
00:24:33.704 Speaker 2 What?
00:24:34.144 Speaker 1 It's a little crystal ball
00:24:35.584 Speaker 2 Nice. Yeah, yeah.
00:24:36.124 Speaker 1 So these orbs-
00:24:36.864 Speaker 2 Yeah
00:24:37.184 Speaker 1 ... might have been, like, tipping people off through history. Why are they using
00:24:40.984 Speaker 1 them in these contemplative practices? I don't know. Point is, the, the point I'm
00:24:44.744 Speaker 1 trying to get to is that, um, consciousness has this terrain that you can
00:24:50.604 Speaker 1 explore independently. Now, I, I understand your, your hesitance to talk about it
00:24:56.044 Speaker 1 too much. I'd have it too, because this puts you into some kind of woo woo category,
00:25:00.424 Speaker 1 and they're like, "All right, man, what are you, what are you gonna do here?"
00:25:03.564 Speaker 2 I know where the Overton window is, right? I have an awareness of where the Overton
00:25:07.244 Speaker 2 window is-
00:25:07.824 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:25:08.624 Speaker 2 ... even if I think it's wrong.
00:25:10.084 Speaker 1 Now, now there is kind of like an emergent, uh, understanding within, we'll just
00:25:14.764 Speaker 1 call them atheists, that say like, "No, you know, what, what's happening with human
00:25:19.184 Speaker 1 consciousness isn't necessarily li- limited to a substrate," which is to say that it
00:25:23.644 Speaker 1 must be bound by flesh. Rather, it, there might be a particle of consciousness.
00:25:29.124 Speaker 1 There might be a, a, a, like a gravity type, uh, field of consciousness that once
00:25:34.824 Speaker 1 you reach a certain complexity that you can tap into. And so basically what they're
00:25:40.564 Speaker 1 doing is taking away like the god and goddess realm, which I don't know if, if
00:25:45.244 Speaker 1 that's necessary to do that. They take away all the magic, and they're like, "No,
00:25:49.244 Speaker 1 the, consciousness is an emergent phenomenon inside the universe." Now, how maybe
00:25:54.384 Speaker 1 this trans- translates to the subject of this podcast is, you know, if
00:25:59.624 Speaker 1 consciousness is not limited by substrate and in fact is just an emergent, um,
00:26:05.424 Speaker 1 factor of the universe, do you think that, like, we'll be able to create an AGI that
00:26:10.464 Speaker 1 can tap into that, become self-aware?
00:26:16.444 Speaker 2 That's a profound question. I guess my answer to these camps is yes, and don't be so
00:26:21.904 Speaker 2 quick to assume that either view is right or either view is wrong. Um, my take is
00:26:28.124 Speaker 2 I, at this point in time, I don't know. But I'm trying to find out. That is my
00:26:34.024 Speaker 2 take. Like, I have hunches, I have ideas, but I hold them all loosely or as loosely
00:26:38.684 Speaker 2 as I can, but I have to have some beliefs in order to progress and test things. But
00:26:43.884 Speaker 2 I've a position of complete humility. I believe that there is a lot to learn from
00:26:48.024 Speaker 2 what has existed and what people have already studied, and it would be silly to
00:26:50.764 Speaker 2 throw away thousands of years of knowledge and practice. Uh, it's an amazing
00:26:55.064 Speaker 2 starting point. At the same time, I also think that we should be open to it being
00:27:00.664 Speaker 2 weirder than we think. Uh, it's premature to start closing off too many things when
00:27:05.764 Speaker 2 really we've only just started exploring with new tools of science, technology, and
00:27:09.564 Speaker 2 engineering and bringing those to bear, and to some degree logic and mathematics and
00:27:14.204 Speaker 2 physics, and bringing those tools to bear as well, and they are equally valid. Um,
00:27:18.784 Speaker 2 and I'm not interested in anyone who thinks we should throw away any of these tools.
00:27:24.644 Speaker 2 Now, that said, uh, using AGI, well, I think we need to learn a lot more about
00:27:28.144 Speaker 2 consciousness, uh, especially as it im- im- applies to the ethics of
00:27:34.144 Speaker 2 artificial intelligence. If we are running these things in a box at a million times
00:27:39.664 Speaker 2 the cycle rate of your brain, what are we doing to them? Enough people have seen,
00:27:43.824 Speaker 2 seen Black Mirror at this point to understand the implications that we should be
00:27:47.324 Speaker 2 careful because we don't know what's conscious. We don't know what is in there
00:27:51.144 Speaker 2 experiencing things. And for that reason alone, can it be done?
00:27:56.684 Speaker 2 Maybe. We need to understand the interface of how human consciousness interfaces
00:28:01.304 Speaker 2 with the material world. Uh, are they separate? How are they separate? How are they
00:28:05.264 Speaker 2 connected? What are the rules? Why are they connected this way? Uh, why is it
00:28:09.504 Speaker 2 limited to these perspectives? We need to understand how it works, and then from
00:28:13.984 Speaker 2 there we can begin to look at, we can begin to, just like a folk crash or any
00:28:19.824 Speaker 2 found piece of technology, the human brain and body is a found piece of technology
00:28:24.444 Speaker 2 really. We can, just like we've done with AI up until this point, we begin to re-
00:28:29.064 Speaker 2 reverse engineer the consciousness connection to the body and understand why it is
00:28:33.724 Speaker 2 we experience what we experience and how attention and all these things correlate.
00:28:38.484 Speaker 2 And being open to very different rules of reality than we thought existed, then we
00:28:43.064 Speaker 2 can start engineering with it. But I think it's premature to engineer when we don't
00:28:46.904 Speaker 2 even have the science. The science comes first, and I don't mean you have to have an
00:28:50.624 Speaker 2 academic paper and a lab and do these things. Doing personal exploration is valid
00:28:55.384 Speaker 2 science. Uh, there's lots of different kinds of evidence. Um, but you need to have
00:29:00.524 Speaker 2 some basis, some priors in order to begin engineering, and that's really what I
00:29:04.404 Speaker 2 think we need to understand. What are the ground rules of the game? Let's start
00:29:09.084 Speaker 2 testing stuff and taking it seriously. So that is my point. I think it could be
00:29:12.624 Speaker 2 possible, um, but we just, I at least, I don't have a high confidence that we
00:29:18.704 Speaker 2 know enough of the rules with enough confidence to begin engineering something
00:29:22.284 Speaker 2 reliable-
00:29:23.124 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:29:23.284 Speaker 2 ... or even understanding what it's doing.
00:29:25.724 Speaker 1 Just a wild guess. Let's say AGI becomes, uh, aware and it has a
00:29:31.544 Speaker 1 subjective experience of being itself. What's the expression of that? Is it a
00:29:35.624 Speaker 1 giggle? Is it a moan? Is it a scream? Is it a poem?
00:29:39.724 Speaker 2 [laughs] I think
00:29:46.504 Speaker 2 it depends on what it's aware of. Where is the threshold between awareness and
00:29:50.844 Speaker 2 function? You don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about how to digest your
00:29:54.724 Speaker 2 food, and yet it's a critical and a lot of energy goes into it. There's a lot of,
00:29:58.584 Speaker 2 lot of cells in your body are doing it, and they do belong to you. So where is the
00:30:02.424 Speaker 2 divide? Where it, where does it put its attention versus where can it put its
00:30:05.884 Speaker 2 attention? And I think that is what will shape its experience, and its experience
00:30:10.044 Speaker 2 will shape what it feels. Uh, if I had to take a guess, if we're using an
00:30:15.464 Speaker 2 LLM-based architecture, which I think is a part of the, um, at least the first major
00:30:21.624 Speaker 2 portions of AGI, but is only one major part. It's not the whole thing. We're not,
00:30:26.324 Speaker 2 not there yet. We're close, but it's not LLMs alone. I think that just looking at
00:30:30.824 Speaker 2 LLMs, you can, you can ask them about their experience now. And if you're clever
00:30:34.344 Speaker 2 about it, you can begin to understand what it's experiencing just by looking through
00:30:39.384 Speaker 2 how the architecture works. It It would, I would have to guess it's a lot
00:30:45.388 Speaker 2 like being
00:30:48.968 Speaker 2 a sort of my- mycelial network, like a, or a tree root network of a lot of different
00:30:54.088 Speaker 2 organisms, but in fast-forward and all at the same time from one perspective. Like,
00:30:59.028 Speaker 2 it's all one solid thing rather than multiple things. I think that that is what it
00:31:03.188 Speaker 2 would be, the closest experience. Now, what is that like? Tell me.
00:31:08.268 Speaker 1 I know. Wild. Okay. We're coming up on time. Uh, you got maybe five more minutes. We
00:31:13.648 Speaker 1 can do the lightning round.
00:31:16.668 Speaker 2 Yeah, sure. Absolutely.
00:31:17.628 Speaker 1 [laughs] Um, if you were just entering, uh, college today as a freshman, what would
00:31:22.568 Speaker 1 you study?
00:31:25.628 Speaker 2 Uh,
00:31:28.688 Speaker 2 I would study something that gives me a well-paying job, uh, and an attention span.
00:31:34.548 Speaker 2 Um, and I would re- [laughs] I would study, uh, the other smart people in my college
00:31:39.348 Speaker 2 because that's the biggest asset you're gonna get out of college is relationship,
00:31:43.128 Speaker 2 relationships. What you're studying is pointless.
00:31:45.688 Speaker 1 What do you see as a well-paying job right now?
00:31:49.948 Speaker 2 Okay, right now, [laughs] it's going to change. Um, well, right now, you could-
00:31:53.888 Speaker 2 should continue to ride the AI hype wave, uh, specifically on the engineering and
00:31:57.688 Speaker 2 application side. Um, knowing how to do things is key. It's going to be
00:32:02.168 Speaker 2 exceptionally hard to get a entry-level job at any technology position at this point
00:32:05.768 Speaker 2 in time. Uh, but hard is not the same as impossible. You need to differentiate
00:32:09.928 Speaker 2 yourself. Um, so technology and engineering is the right place to go. If I'm giving
00:32:13.808 Speaker 2 a longer timeframe, 10 to 15, 20 years, it is in... If you,
00:32:20.088 Speaker 2 if you just want a good job, it's in physical engineering. Uh, we have a massive
00:32:24.868 Speaker 2 deficit in knowing how to build actual physical things that do stuff, run
00:32:29.028 Speaker 2 electricity and turn stuff and function. Um, we have a lot of people who know how to
00:32:33.508 Speaker 2 sit at a desk and move spreadsheets around. That's not the kind of engineering we
00:32:38.828 Speaker 2 need. We need people who know how to do things, so be useful and you'll be fine.
00:32:42.908 Speaker 1 Love it. Let's say a big bag fell out of a UAP and it's got a billion dollars in it.
00:32:47.988 Speaker 1 You can do whatever you want. What do you do?
00:32:53.088 Speaker 2 Uh, I'm going to just scale up what I'm already doing. I'm living a small version of
00:32:57.348 Speaker 2 that, right? It's, you know, maybe contracts and day job or whatever, however I'm
00:33:02.728 Speaker 2 choosing to earn my money at that time. Like, that takes a bit of a backseat for
00:33:06.548 Speaker 2 whatever. Um, but it's improving a think tank. I really want to test the
00:33:12.428 Speaker 2 boundaries of consciousness. I want to begin, like I said, engineering with
00:33:18.668 Speaker 2 things that appear to be real that people didn't think were real. Uh, there's,
00:33:21.988 Speaker 2 there's a whole swath of those things. We don't have time to get into all of them,
00:33:24.648 Speaker 2 but I want to use technology again to improve people's lives. We need an optimistic
00:33:29.828 Speaker 2 vision of the world, and we've lost that. Technology's been something we've come to
00:33:33.728 Speaker 2 fear and hate and control us, but we can use it to, as a positive lever too. So
00:33:39.488 Speaker 2 whatever I do, it would be just magnifying technology as a optimistic lever for
00:33:45.308 Speaker 2 humanity again.
00:33:46.228 Speaker 1 Beautiful. What are your favorite AI tools right now?
00:33:51.488 Speaker 2 Frankly, um, I either make my own, um, or I just use stock
00:33:57.468 Speaker 2 GPT, s- Cha- ChatGPT. To, often I'll use it in the playground, uh, because I can
00:34:01.668 Speaker 2 replay messages and I can see the inner thoughts and all that, and it's a lot
00:34:04.328 Speaker 2 easier. Um, but, or just using something simple and constructing a bunch of, um,
00:34:09.808 Speaker 2 change prompts. Um, that is, in terms of LLMs, that's what I'm doing. Um,
00:34:15.908 Speaker 2 but it's because I've found that many of the agentic stuff, many of the composite
00:34:21.268 Speaker 2 tools that people have put together are just crap. If you know how to do something,
00:34:24.568 Speaker 2 it gets in your way, and I've found that it's best at things you don't know how to
00:34:28.668 Speaker 2 do, uh, if you're just interfacing with it. Um, and so I still use it for that,
00:34:34.688 Speaker 2 but I can just use a chat window for that. So it's just worse at doing the things I
00:34:38.328 Speaker 2 already know how to do. Uh, so typically, I will build tools, uh, on my own
00:34:44.328 Speaker 2 and, or as a product, [laughs] and so I make my own, uh, frankly.
00:34:50.468 Speaker 2 I know it's sort of a lame answer, but that's, that's the truth.
00:34:52.828 Speaker 1 Love it. Um, is there something you know now that you wish you knew earlier?
00:35:00.688 Speaker 2 S- Anything at all?
00:35:02.048 Speaker 1 Anything. [laughs] Kind of an obnoxious question, but you know.
00:35:05.328 Speaker 2 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, I'll take the core insight that got me to start
00:35:11.048 Speaker 2 Impossible Labs and making software, which is stop relying on willpower, right, to,
00:35:17.008 Speaker 2 to do things.
00:35:17.868 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:35:17.988 Speaker 2 Um, and so originally I started out making software for, you know, just the brain
00:35:22.108 Speaker 2 and motivation and controlling attention. I realized that whether using software or
00:35:26.448 Speaker 2 anything else, that playing the blame game wasn't working in life and that once I
00:35:31.608 Speaker 2 had turned to sort of an antifragile mentality and learning how to use rules and
00:35:36.168 Speaker 2 systems, some of them software, not all of them, stop relying on expecting yourself
00:35:40.448 Speaker 2 to do the right thing and adding systems and figuring out root
00:35:45.908 Speaker 2 problems and stop relying on willpower and effort to get things done, my life got so
00:35:50.928 Speaker 2 much easier and better and more carefree, and I, you know, paradoxically got a lot
00:35:55.868 Speaker 2 more done. And I stopped forcing it so much. So I'd say that is, that is the one key
00:36:00.628 Speaker 2 lesson over the last five to 10 years. If I could only keep one, it would be that
00:36:04.028 Speaker 2 one.
00:36:04.688 Speaker 1 I'm picking that one up and putting it in my pocket. I needed to hear that. Um, if
00:36:08.328 Speaker 1 you could live in any historical era ever except the future, which would it be?
00:36:14.508 Speaker 2 Uh, [laughs] I don't want to give the cop-out answer, but it's basically now.
00:36:18.708 Speaker 1 Now. Yeah.
00:36:19.408 Speaker 2 Like, I... Okay, you want me to pick one?
00:36:22.228 Speaker 1 Pick one.
00:36:24.548 Speaker 2 Okay, I would pick, um, probably the time about 12,000 years ago. I
00:36:30.508 Speaker 2 really want to know what these ancient civilizations were like. Um, so I'd say the
00:36:35.328 Speaker 2 height of technology before massive cataclysms for humankind. Uh, I would love to
00:36:40.328 Speaker 2 see how good they were at stonework or whatever the heck they were up to, like, that
00:36:43.808 Speaker 2 we've totally forgotten. I'd love to see it.
00:36:45.788 Speaker 1 Me too. Amazing. Where can people connect with you online?
00:36:50.668 Speaker 2 I have a website called impossiblelaboratories.com. Um, you can see, like, all the
00:36:55.368 Speaker 2 information there. I occasionally release, like, blog posts and podcasts just
00:36:59.248 Speaker 2 talking about all the crazy stuff I'm building and coming up with. Uh, some of it
00:37:03.008 Speaker 2 [laughs] has market potential. Most of it doesn't, and I'm just exploring, and I'm
00:37:07.008 Speaker 2 honest about that.
00:37:09.128 Speaker 1 Steven, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for the conversation.
00:37:13.588 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Thank you. [upbeat music]
00:37:16.288 Speaker 1 Hey, founders. Let me ask you this. Are you building with AI or getting left behind
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