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Speaker 1: Welcome back to AI for Founders. I'm
your host, Ryan Estis. I am not AI. Today's

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Speaker 1: episode is a deep one. I'm joined by
Stephen Schrembach, founder of Impossible Labs

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Speaker 1: and a thinker at the intersection of
AI, consciousness, and human meaning. But this

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Speaker 1: isn't just another tech chat.
Stephen's an explorer, blending software
engineering

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Speaker 1: with over 1,000 hours of meditation
practice. We talk about brain-computer

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Speaker 1: interface, sensory substitution,
psychedelics, even close encounters with UFOs,
my

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Speaker 1: favorite stuff. It's a conversation
that challenges assumptions about what's real,

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Speaker 1: what's possible, and what it means to
be human in a world rapidly reshaped by

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence. If you're
curious about where technology ends and

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Speaker 1: consciousness begins, or even if
there's a boundary, then this episode is for
you.

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Speaker 1: Let's dive in. But first, some
business. This episode is brought to you by

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Speaker 1: Kickcaster, the podcast agency
trusted by over 800 founders, executives, and
thought

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Speaker 1: leaders. If you're building a brand,
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Speaker 1: apply to become a guest today. Let's
get your voice out there. That's Kickcaster by

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Speaker 1: Moburst. [singing] AI alive tonight.
Shining stars,

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Speaker 1: computer light. AI, take the flight.

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Speaker 1: In the glow of neon bright. All
right, Stephen, how are you doing? Thanks for
coming

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Speaker 1: on the show.

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Speaker 2: I'm having a pretty good day,
actually. Just finished a run, so feeling pretty

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Speaker 2: mellow. Did a long meditation. Ready
to chat.

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Speaker 1: Tremendous. And that's really what I
want to speak with you to begin. I want to hear

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Speaker 1: about all your projects, but, you
know, w- when you became available for an

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Speaker 1: interview, one thing really stood
out, and that's this: the intersection of AI and

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Speaker 1: human meaning, meditation research,
brain-computer interfaces, and sensory

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Speaker 1: substitution. So because you
mentioned meditation, let's start there. What,
what

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Speaker 1: kind of meditation or... do you do?

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Speaker 2: Um, I... At this point, I have my own
spin on it. I don't follow a specific school

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Speaker 2: or methodology, although I like to
borrow from them. I do, uh, frankly, I do about

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Speaker 2: an hour of meditation every morning.
Uh, I've, I've probably got maybe 1,000 hours

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Speaker 2: under my belt, so I'm not, like, a
guru or anything, but for me, it's, like, two

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Speaker 2: different things. It's-

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Speaker 1: Okay

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Speaker 2: ... this is how I reset myself. This
is how I get my brain and body to function.

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Speaker 2: Like, this is... It has a bigger
effect than almost anything else I do in life,
even

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Speaker 2: than medications, anything like that,
besides maybe sleep. And the other is, like,

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Speaker 2: inner space exploration, right? It's
that we've got this tool to explore what is

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Speaker 2: reality, right? What is... How do
we... How does consciousness interact with, you

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Speaker 2: know, the physical world, and what
are the rules? And so you got this tool to probe

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Speaker 2: at, you know, what are the, the rules
of experience. And I can't think of a better

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Speaker 2: tool for exploration for, like,
meaning and purpose and our place in the world,
what

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Speaker 2: matters, how it all works. So, I
mean, that's the other big thing. That's what it
is

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 1: Amazing. Okay. So you've got 1,000
hours under your belt. What brought you to the

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Speaker 1: cushion?

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Speaker 2: Well, I started out probably like a
lot of people. It's, "Okay, I'll do 10 minutes

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Speaker 2: here, 20 minutes here. I'll guilt
trip myself into it. I'll take a couple months

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Speaker 2: off." [laughs] It's a... You know, it
was a, it was a thing you should do, you know?

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Speaker 2: Um, and then at some point, I read,
um, the autobiography from Michael Singer. I

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Speaker 2: think it's The Surrender Experiment.
Then I read his, um, his actual book after

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Speaker 2: that. Um,

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Speaker 2: the name escapes me at this point.
Um, it'll come back. The Untethered Soul. Uh,
and

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Speaker 2: he talked about just, like, "Oh, I
did, like, this two-hour meditation and had this

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Speaker 2: profound, like, experience." And I'm
like, "What? You can do that just by sitting

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Speaker 2: there?" [laughs] Like, I had no idea
that this was even a thing. Very naïve at this

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Speaker 2: point in time. Didn't know anything
about, you know, you know, yoga traditions or

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Speaker 2: the yogis or, you know, there's paths
to enlightenment or th- different techniques

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Speaker 2: or any of the altered states that are
possible without psychedelics or anything,

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Speaker 2: right? No intervention at all. The
things you can do with just your own mind and

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Speaker 2: where you put your attention and your
concentration is crazy, and I had no idea you

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Speaker 2: could reach these kinds of
experiences or, like, insight just by sitting
there

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Speaker 2: properly, and that's really what
brought me in is this fascination. It's the same

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Speaker 2: thing that draws me to technology.
It's like, I gotta know. I gotta play with it.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious. I need to know the
rules, and can I do some engineering [laughs]
with

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Speaker 2: it once I understand how it works?
So, yeah, that's, that's what pulled me in.

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Speaker 1: Amazing. And then when you're
sitting, you said you're pulling from multiple

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Speaker 1: traditions, uh, but nothing in
particular. What are you doing when you're, when

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Speaker 1: you're meditating?

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Speaker 2: So my basic protocol... Again, I,
I... Sometimes it's, oh, I realize I'm angry and

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Speaker 2: stressed out, and most of the session
is just, like, resetting to zero, right?

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Speaker 2: That's, that's not exciting. Um, my
basic protocol, uh, draws, right, from the

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Speaker 2: Yoga Sutras, right? It's, it's pretty
simple. It is a process of letting go,

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Speaker 2: attempting to find a center, and
basically whatever you're putting your attention
on

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Speaker 2: is not the thing to put your
attention on. And it is a process of
progressively

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Speaker 2: relaxing and moving your attention
almost like a, like a knot. [laughs] You just

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Speaker 2: continue to invert whatever you're
looking at. Not without freaking out or
anything,

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Speaker 2: but it's basically moving from big,
overt bodily sensations to, okay, now emotional.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm aware of thoughts. It's a
continual separation of, oh, that's not me.
That's

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Speaker 2: not me. That's not me, until there's
nothing left but the sense of self, and then if

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Speaker 2: you want to, you can try to keep
going and have an ego death experience. That's,

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Speaker 2: frankly, not a realistic goal for
most sessions. It... I really don't enjoy it. I

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Speaker 2: don't... It's not, like, a fun
experience. But there are other... Sometimes
I'll

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Speaker 2: pick other targets for meditation
depending on what I'm trying to do, but that's
my,

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Speaker 2: my go-to.

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Speaker 1: Nice. Um, and why not choose a
particular path?

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Speaker 1: Why not zazen? Why not, um, you know,
a mindfulness-based stress reduction?

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Speaker 1: Why not Dzogchen? Is there, is there,
uh, something you're gaining by not committing

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Speaker 1: to a particular dogma?

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Speaker 2: I am totally open to being naive,
and-

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Speaker 1: [laughs]

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Speaker 2: ... I, I, probably a lot of these
practitioners would be happy to tell me that. I

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Speaker 2: just, something in me just is irked
by dogma and authority and tradition, and this

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Speaker 2: is the way it's done. I love to just
come in, like, slurp up, "Okay, why does it

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Speaker 2: work that way? How does it function?
Let me try it myself." And I try, I wanna try

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Speaker 2: to understand why the existing
structures work i- in anything, really. And then
I

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Speaker 2: take it, and I leave the rest 'cause
I'm completely uninterested in, "Well, we do

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Speaker 2: this because it's the way. This is
the next step. You don't get to progress. Now
you

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Speaker 2: gotta study these stupid koans for a
long time." I don't think I'm gonna do that.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna follow my interest and my
intuition, and that's what I'm gonna do. And I

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Speaker 2: end up... I think that it can be
detrimental, this mindset in life,

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Speaker 2: because it causes you to, if you're
not aware of what you're doing, to waste a bunch

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Speaker 2: of cycles replicating work that other
people have already figured out. However, you

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Speaker 2: know, at some point, it's also where
everything new comes from, are from people who

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Speaker 2: are interested in defying what
already exists, or reassembling or synthesizing
from

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Speaker 2: multiple sources. And that's,
frankly, myself is interest, is, that's what

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Speaker 2: draws me, is I wanna, I wanna learn
it. I wanna do it myself, make it my own, or

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Speaker 2: I'll just quit because it's boring.

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Speaker 1: What a way. Um, do you mind if I
share a little bit of my experience with

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Speaker 1: meditation?

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Speaker 2: Please. Yeah, this is a conversation.
Let's hear it.

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Speaker 1: You bet. So I, I started a- as a kid,
you know. I was probably 16, 17, reading the

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Speaker 1: Tao Te Ching, had a couple of books.
This is before the internet. So I was doing my

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Speaker 1: thing, and I didn't know if I was
doing it right or whatever. And so
intermittently-

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Speaker 2: You were a hardcore kid. [laughs]

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Speaker 1: I thought it was cool, man. I was
into, like, you know, Jack Kerouac and stuff. I

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Speaker 1: read The Dharma Bums. I was like,
"Dude, I'm a Buddhist now. What's up?" Um, so,
you

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Speaker 1: know, uh, and I carried on and, and
picked up, you know, little tips here and there.

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Speaker 1: Never really knew what I was doing,
but got pretty serious about it maybe, um, uh,

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Speaker 1: 10 years ago. And it's like, nope,
you know what? This is my path. And a part of

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Speaker 1: that was looking for a sangha. And so
I was like, you know, on one side, I want

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Speaker 1: further instruction for some of these
mental techniques, but also, I'm an

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Speaker 1: able-bodied man. And I think there's
a community out there that could use a guy with

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Speaker 1: a pickup truck. I mean, it's adorable
that you go to your religion for something you

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Speaker 1: believe in or something, but
ultimately, you just need, like, a competent man
or

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Speaker 1: woman.

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Speaker 2: [laughs]

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Speaker 1: You know? So what I did is I went to
all the different-

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Speaker 2: Right

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Speaker 1: ... um, temples here in Denver and,
and Boulder and stuff, and basically, you know,

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Speaker 1: interviewed them. Was like, "Hey,
this is what I do. I'm interested in this. What
do

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Speaker 1: you think? What do you think I should
do?" And every single one of them said, "You

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Speaker 1: should stay here and do this with
us." [laughs] And-

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Speaker 2: I'll bet

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Speaker 1: ... you know. And so, uh, I was kinda
lo- leaning towards Shambhala, you know, which

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Speaker 1: has, like, a great, uh, history in,
in, uh, Boulder, and o- of course, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: uh, a scandalous one. Well, the, it
really blew up, like, right then. Like, the

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Speaker 1: whole Shambhala thing came tumbling
down. Lawsuits. I mean, what they were doing in

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Speaker 1: the '60s and '70s were, was pretty
awful, and it continued that behavior until

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Speaker 1: present day. So to your point, kinda
disillusioned and bitter by the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Now, what I did a few years ago is,
it's still very part, uh, and central of who I

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Speaker 1: am, meditating, but also, like, kinda
studying these Buddhist traditions in s- in

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Speaker 1: various different ways. So I went on
a whole bunch of podcasts. Again, I have this

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Speaker 1: kind of, like, seeker energy. So I
went on a bunch of Buddhist podcasts and wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about bringing contemplative
practice to business. And I was roundly

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Speaker 1: rejected by, like-

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Speaker 2: [laughs]

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Speaker 1: ... a half a dozen. I'd do these
interviews, and they'd be like, "You're not

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Speaker 1: Buddhist," or, "You're not Buddhist
enough," or, "You're not this or that." And I'm

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Speaker 1: like, "Who are you?" You know? They
wouldn't even air the episodes.

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Speaker 2: You're talking to the wrong people,
man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'm talking to a lot of
different people. But, you know, I, I, I think

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Speaker 1: there's value to a tradition. Um, y-
I'm a martial artist, so I, I, but I'm a mixed

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Speaker 1: martial artist, so I, I like to bring
them all together. Um, so anyway, that, that's

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Speaker 1: kind of my experience, and I, I've
had, uh, the same thing. It's like, no, you know

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Speaker 1: what? I'm gonna switch from Kundalini
to, to Dzogchen techniques to, you know,

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Speaker 1: just simple zazen is probably my
favorite, what I do mostly on the cushion, and
keep

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Speaker 1: it moving. Now, the American Buddhist
tradition, uh, is also very interesting to me,

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Speaker 1: largely because it's marred in
partying. So I don't think you can, you can, um,

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Speaker 1: extract the, the American
contemplative tradition without psychedelics,

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Speaker 1: alcohol, and scandalous sex. And
psychedelics in particular

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Speaker 1: because this is, uh, it's
non-consensual enlightenment in a way, where it

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Speaker 1: confirms that there's a terrain to
traverse, you know? Um, psychedelics aren't as

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Speaker 1: much of an intoxicant as they are
kind of a revealing of an inner landscape. And
so,

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Speaker 1: you know, at least for me, it was
instrumental in, like, being like, "Whoa,
there's

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Speaker 1: something going on in here." Um, and
then of course, you know, you can, you can find

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Speaker 1: some of those states like you were
talking about on the cushion, um, without all
the

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Speaker 1: fireworks, you know, which can be
kinda distracting sometimes. So how about you?

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Speaker 1: What was your experience with, with
psychedelics, and, and how does that incorporate

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Speaker 1: in any way to your sitting practice?

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Speaker 2: Pretty limited. Um, so pretty much
legal forms of, uh, marijuana and psilocybin.

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Speaker 2: Um, so they're all not nearly as
strong as the, uh, illicit

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Speaker 2: compounds.

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Speaker 1: Depends on where you are. Denver, a
lot-

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Speaker 2: Can't hear them. Yeah

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Speaker 1: ... there, there's a lot legal in
Denver

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Speaker 2: [laughs] That's true. Um, so but, you
know, enough to have a profoundly different

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Speaker 2: experience, all right? We'll put it
that way. Um, and but I did it after having done

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Speaker 2: a lot of meditation and found that,
to my great surprise, oh, there's nothing really

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Speaker 2: new here. Now, I'm sure this is
different if you're, uh, using DMT or something,
uh,

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Speaker 2: you're using the, that, what is it?
That cactus or flower compound [laughs] out in

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Speaker 2: the middle of a desert. I'm sure
that's a different experience entirely. But for
the

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Speaker 2: most part, I was shocked to find, oh,
this is, like, the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like, I've been here, right? This is,
like, next door. And so I described it to

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Speaker 2: others as like, okay, psychedelics is
like strapping yourself to a rocket. You got

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Speaker 2: no choice. You're on the ride.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Uh, or you could learn how to fly,
and you can go as slow as you want with an

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Speaker 2: airplane. You could just sort of
putter around on the runway. You could take off

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Speaker 2: whenever you're ready. You could...
You decide you don't like it, you can land

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Speaker 2: again. Uh, it's so it's a useful
thing, and probably better most of the time. But

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Speaker 2: sometimes, some people, and I guess
on purpose, you need a rocket launch to really,

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Speaker 2: uh, kick yourself out of where you
are.

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Speaker 1: You get it started, to know that
there's a there there. You know, all the, the

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Speaker 1: great-

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Speaker 2: Yeah

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Speaker 1: ... you know, Jewish Buddhists in,
in, uh, America, Jack Kornfield, and,

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Speaker 1: um, what's, uh, Sharon, and all, all
these guys and gals.

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Speaker 2: All these guys.

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Speaker 1: They all came out of the hippie
movement, taking acid and being like, "Oh my
God, I

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Speaker 1: gotta go to India." You know, Ram
Dass, all these guys.

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Speaker 2: Ram Dass.

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Speaker 1: Um, even the, what's his name? Uh,
Timothy Leary. I mean, the, they all started

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Speaker 1: there. Um, but to your point, it is
a, a familiar place. And particularly with these

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Speaker 1: contemplative traditions, why I do
like studying kind of the, the Buddhist d-

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Speaker 1: doctrines is because they're all
about these lists, and they-

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Speaker 2: Lists

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Speaker 1: ... they love to, like, categorize
stuff, but they plot the terrain.

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Speaker 2: So much gamification.

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Speaker 1: [laughs] Yeah. And y- they have
hierarchies, you know, so they have these genre,
or

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Speaker 1: genres where you're like, okay,
you're level one, you're level two, you're level

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Speaker 1: three, you're level four. Um, and you
can start to, like, figure out, like, what

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Speaker 1: lives in these, or what is in these
different realms and kind of how to traverse

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Speaker 1: them, you know? Um, so it, it's
fascinating. So meditation,

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Speaker 1: y- you're doing an hour a day, which
is quite a bit. Um, when do you like to, to do

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Speaker 1: meditation?

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And talk a little bit how it
influences your life.

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Speaker 2: Well, I, I didn't start that way,
right? I, I started slowly increasing. But I

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Speaker 2: noticed I was getting to m- more and
more insight. It was profoundly affecting me.

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Speaker 2: Like, it, at certain times, like, I
was scrambling to this as a way to, to

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Speaker 2: find insight. Like, to... The easiest
way of describing it is it allows me to

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Speaker 2: insulate myself from the world and to
at least for... There's a half-life to it, but

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Speaker 2: bring to my work, to my family
interactions, everything I do to act from as

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Speaker 2: innermost intention as you can have,
right? It, I'm trying to make sure that the f-

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Speaker 2: first and most important intentions I
have for the day or my time, or even in

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Speaker 2: response to things that I didn't
expect, are coming from my values or from my, my

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Speaker 2: desires and not what the world has
sort of pushed into my field of view. So it

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Speaker 2: has been an, an amazing tool for
that. Um, so I found that the more I increased
the

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Speaker 2: time, uh, the better effects I got.
Uh, and then at some point, just like

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Speaker 2: long-distance running, you know, you,
you connect the loop, the reward circuitry,

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Speaker 2: and like, "Oh, this is helping me."
And it no longer became a challenge, most of the

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Speaker 2: time, uh, to sit down and do that
time. I don't do it right as I wake up because
I'm

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Speaker 2: too tired, uh, and I'm cranky or, or
I don't, I don't... Sort of foggy-headed. I

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Speaker 2: usually do it a little later, uh,
8:00, between 8:00 and 10:00 AM. It's about two

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Speaker 2: hours after waking or three or four
hours after waking. Um, but yeah, so that, I

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Speaker 2: mean, that's my schedule, and that's
a lot of what it's for. And I, I often will

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Speaker 2: just pick what I'm interested in, and
I will pick a technique or a target of focus

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Speaker 2: and just try stuff out. Um, there's
definitely more to the story than that, but

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Speaker 2: that's my, that's my schedule.

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Speaker 1: I love it. W- and then when you say
insights, maybe explain to people what you mean.

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Speaker 1: What are insights in meditation?

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Speaker 2: All right. So I mean, at, at risk of
sounding like a crazy person, but I'm,

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Speaker 2: I prefer to just be completely
honest, and you c- think I'm a fool if you like.
Uh,

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Speaker 2: but so I, for a long time, you know,
we'll say the first 200, 300

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Speaker 2: sessions there, I was after, you
know, some form of enlightenment. I was after

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Speaker 2: trying to...

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Speaker 2: I wanted the superpower of being able
to walk through the world without being

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Speaker 2: bothered by things so that I could
act from what I thought was the right thing to
do

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Speaker 2: without being so attached to it.
That's really what I was after. Not to just,
like,

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Speaker 2: transcend my body and start glowing
and flying around or become, uh, like the Buddha

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Speaker 2: or whatever. I had no interest in,
like, leaving life. Uh, I wanted to be better in

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Speaker 2: it, and that still is my goal. Uh,
but then I had some very profound experiences.

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Speaker 2: Uh, basically a couple pretty close
UFO sightings that totally rocked my world. I'm

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Speaker 2: like, "Holy crap, this isn't just a
game." Like, we don't understand the world.

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Speaker 2: Like, I don't know what this was, um,
but it wasn't something that human beings

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Speaker 2: made. Um, and I was definitely not
crazy. Uh, or at least no more crazy than

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Speaker 2: everyone else.

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Speaker 1: Pause, pause, pause.

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Speaker 2: And I realized-

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Speaker 1: Tell me-

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Speaker 2: Yep

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Speaker 1: ... everything right about this. Tell
me, tell me, tell me.

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Speaker 2: Really?

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Okay. I, I'll, I'll s- I'll say that
the, the punchline, and then we'll come back,

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Speaker 2: is the punchline is that this caused
me to get much more serious about the weird

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Speaker 2: parts of meditation and using,
exploring inner spaces as a tool for

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Speaker 2: understanding what the heck is going
on here. Why are we here? What's going on? Uh,

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Speaker 2: why does... How does the world work?
Um, and that- I mean, it totally derailed my,

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Speaker 2: you know, startup intentions. And
well, I won't say derailed. It, it shifted

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Speaker 2: everything in my life, right? I-
it's... Now I'm incorporating everything. Uh, so

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Speaker 2: the UFO things, I've had three
experiences. I don't need to go into great
detail on

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Speaker 2: some of them. Uh, the first one was
just looking out my back window. I see, like,

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Speaker 2: these weird flashing lights. They're
just white orbs in the distance going across

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Speaker 2: the skyline. Got a great view from my
back window. I can see a very long distance.

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Speaker 2: And they were... It was like a neural
network. They were just firing in this

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Speaker 2: sequence. It's very weird. Like, doo,
doo, doo, doo, doo. Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo,

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Speaker 2: doo. And they were not in a line.
They're just, like, this cloud. It's very
strange.

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Speaker 2: Um, the second one, I was going for a
run. This is maybe six months to a year after

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Speaker 2: that. Going for a run, I see flying
about a quarter of a mile a- behind my house. I

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Speaker 2: was deep in a non-dualistic
meditation at this point. I was watching a guy
running.

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Speaker 2: I'll put it that way. [laughs] And
so, and I just see flying about a quarter mile

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Speaker 2: behind myself, house, what looks like
a black bean, like a kidney bean shape. I

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Speaker 2: don't know how to... It was this
weird matte black with a mother-of-pearl sheen,

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Speaker 2: like a little rainbow sheen all over
it. It could've been six feet tall. It's hard

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Speaker 2: to tell 'cause the distance. It was
just floating in a straight line. No sound. And

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Speaker 2: not a... It was... I checked later.
It was going against the wind by about 15 miles

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Speaker 2: an hour. And that's it. It's just
floating. I saw it for about six seconds, and
that

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Speaker 2: s- that started to rip me right back
out of meditation.

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Speaker 1: [laughs]

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Speaker 2: Began to associate real quick. At
first, I'm like, "I knew that would be there."

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Speaker 2: That's the profound sense I had. I
knew it would be there. And then I'm like, "Wait

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Speaker 2: a minute. That doesn't make any
sense. What, what am I looking at?" And then I

299
00:19:55,256 --> 00:20:00,056
Speaker 2: started like, "I gotta go get, like,
a mo- monocle." And then the third story, in a

300
00:20:00,096 --> 00:20:04,376
Speaker 2: nutshell, is about four months ago.
Me and my wife go for a walk every night, and,

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Speaker 2: uh, we're in the neighborhood, and I
just have this profound sense that we're gonna

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Speaker 2: see something, which is, again, very
weird. And it's sort of a cloudy night, and we

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Speaker 2: see this white orb coming, and I
think it's Venus. I think it's nothing. She's
like,

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Speaker 2: "That's not a star. That's not a
planet. It's coming closer." I'm like, "No, it's

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Speaker 2: not." Sure enough, it starts to come
closer and closer, and now it's over the tree

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Speaker 2: line. And I look through my 8X
monocle, 'cause I have one now. At this point,
it's

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Speaker 2: happened twice, so I'm like, "I gotta
start walking around with this thing." And

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Speaker 2: it's a glowing white ball. I look
through the 8X monocle. That's it. That's all it

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Speaker 2: is, is a glowing white ball. There's
no sound, and it flies over our heads. It goes

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Speaker 2: across the tree line, starts to dis-
accelerate. No sound at all. Uh, no other

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Speaker 2: effects. And then it just lets out
this plume of, like, white stuff behind it, like

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Speaker 2: a comet, and it just... I wa- I
stared at it, 'cause she turned around and said,
"I

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Speaker 2: gotta go get the kids. I gotta get a
camera." And she ran. I knew to keep staring at

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Speaker 2: it. I've read enough stories at this
point.

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Speaker 1: [laughs]

316
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Speaker 2: Like, uh-uh, I'm watching this thing.
Sure enough, as soon as she turns around, it

317
00:21:07,336 --> 00:21:09,536
Speaker 2: fades out, just like turning the
opacity down to zero.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Like in a transition. It's gone.
Phew. It's just gone. And that's it. So those
are

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Speaker 2: my experiences.

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Speaker 1: Amazing. Do you think the orbs and
the kidney bean thing are the same thing?

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Speaker 2: Man, I got a lot of theories, but
honestly, all I have are, are theories. You
know,

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Speaker 2: nobody's knocking on my door. I never
got a book in the mail describing how it all

324
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Speaker 2: works. It seems like... Honestly, it
just seems like a prod, just a, like, a little

325
00:21:36,096 --> 00:21:41,116
Speaker 2: poke from outside of what we think is
real, the consensus real- what most people

326
00:21:41,176 --> 00:21:45,356
Speaker 2: think exists. Just a little prod,
just rattle the cage a little bit. Hey.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

328
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Speaker 2: Just enough to get me to take
meditation seriously-

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Speaker 1: [laughs]

330
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Speaker 2: ... and to, you know, start looking
into this. Honestly, that's what it looks like,

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Speaker 2: is somebody from the outside looking
at humans going, "You guys are screwed up.

332
00:21:57,296 --> 00:21:58,636
Speaker 2: Hey," just a little slap.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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00:21:59,156 --> 00:22:00,656
Speaker 2: "There's, there's more out there. Go
look."

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00:22:00,896 --> 00:22:01,136
Speaker 1: Yeah.

336
00:22:01,176 --> 00:22:02,336
Speaker 2: That's what I think, honestly.

337
00:22:02,576 --> 00:22:05,856
Speaker 1: Well, and they've been flirting with
all kinds of disclosures for years and years

338
00:22:05,896 --> 00:22:10,156
Speaker 1: and years now. So I mean, it's
coming, you know? It, it... And there's
really...

339
00:22:11,476 --> 00:22:14,156
Speaker 1: There's g- uh, just a couple of
options. Either they're some kind of

340
00:22:14,216 --> 00:22:19,036
Speaker 1: interdimensional travel beings, or
they're from outside of the Earth in some kind
of

341
00:22:19,136 --> 00:22:24,096
Speaker 1: spacecraft. Or they're unbelievably
old, and they've been here for a long time, and

342
00:22:24,136 --> 00:22:28,456
Speaker 1: they just reemerge. Or they're some
kind of drone technology that, that the

343
00:22:28,496 --> 00:22:31,476
Speaker 1: government has, you know? [laughs]
It's like, take your pick.

344
00:22:32,076 --> 00:22:37,156
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not ruling out the last
one, but I don't think it's that one
exclusively-

345
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Speaker 1: Yeah

346
00:22:37,276 --> 00:22:41,676
Speaker 2: ... to be honest with you. Um,
they... Uh, people think way too highly of the

347
00:22:41,736 --> 00:22:42,836
Speaker 2: government. They think that-

348
00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:43,896
Speaker 1: [laughs]

349
00:22:43,916 --> 00:22:46,796
Speaker 2: ... this is... Also, why are you
harassing this random guy-

350
00:22:46,796 --> 00:22:47,096
Speaker 1: [laughs]

351
00:22:47,116 --> 00:22:50,456
Speaker 2: ... with, like, weird... What are you
using this money for? This is pretty dumb. I

352
00:22:50,476 --> 00:22:55,916
Speaker 2: think it's pretty obviously, like,
some sort of intelligent entities of some kind

353
00:22:56,696 --> 00:23:00,676
Speaker 2: from another time, from another
dimension, from other worlds, from our world,
very

354
00:23:00,736 --> 00:23:04,416
Speaker 2: old. Like, you don't have to violate
physics as we know it. I think it's just there

355
00:23:04,436 --> 00:23:06,176
Speaker 2: are more rules than we realized.

356
00:23:06,336 --> 00:23:06,436
Speaker 1: Yeah.

357
00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:10,296
Speaker 2: Uh, more fundamental rules. And we're
naive. We're babies in the universe, you know?

358
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Speaker 2: Let's be humble.

359
00:23:11,216 --> 00:23:17,156
Speaker 1: I, I agree. I, um, uh, my cousin is,
has a, a, he's a doctor of physics

360
00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:22,836
Speaker 1: and does physics work with, I, I
think, like, neon gas or something. Way above my

361
00:23:22,896 --> 00:23:28,416
Speaker 1: pay grade. But I saw him [laughs]
last week. And I was like, "Hey, man, um, do you

362
00:23:28,496 --> 00:23:33,056
Speaker 1: think the reason that there haven't
been dramatic, uh, advancements in physics were,

363
00:23:33,416 --> 00:23:38,476
Speaker 1: was because after Area 51 crashed,
that, like, they black boxed all the physics

364
00:23:38,556 --> 00:23:41,776
Speaker 1: while they were reverse engineering
the UFOs?" And he was like, "What the hell are

365
00:23:41,816 --> 00:23:42,656
Speaker 1: you talking about?"

366
00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:44,716
Speaker 2: [laughs]

367
00:23:44,796 --> 00:23:49,136
Speaker 1: I was like, "Dude, come on, man, I
thought you would know." He, he, he did not. Um,

368
00:23:49,456 --> 00:23:50,016
Speaker 1: but I, I-

369
00:23:50,056 --> 00:23:50,936
Speaker 2: I wanted the inside scoop.

370
00:23:50,936 --> 00:23:56,396
Speaker 1: [laughs] I love this idea. Um, and to
kinda tie it into, like, the meditation, you

371
00:23:56,436 --> 00:24:00,116
Speaker 1: know. Uh, some people might also say,
"Well, Steven, you were in, like, a heightened

372
00:24:00,236 --> 00:24:05,436
Speaker 1: state. You may have, like,
hallucinated the whole thing." Um, because that
is also a

373
00:24:05,496 --> 00:24:10,696
Speaker 1: part of, uh, ascending in jhanas, is,
like, you can reach places that, a celestial

374
00:24:10,776 --> 00:24:15,476
Speaker 1: realm where, you know, the, the
Tibetans describe all these amazing monsters and

375
00:24:15,556 --> 00:24:21,356
Speaker 1: stuff like that. They all put orbs in
absolutely everything. I, I'm kind of a

376
00:24:21,496 --> 00:24:27,304
Speaker 1: student of, um, crystal balls.
Because they are absolutely

377
00:24:27,384 --> 00:24:31,584
Speaker 1: everywhere. In fact, I, that's what I
use. You can see it back there next to the

378
00:24:31,644 --> 00:24:31,844
Speaker 1: mirror

379
00:24:33,704 --> 00:24:33,844
Speaker 2: What?

380
00:24:34,144 --> 00:24:35,004
Speaker 1: It's a little crystal ball

381
00:24:35,584 --> 00:24:36,084
Speaker 2: Nice. Yeah, yeah.

382
00:24:36,124 --> 00:24:36,824
Speaker 1: So these orbs-

383
00:24:36,864 --> 00:24:37,004
Speaker 2: Yeah

384
00:24:37,184 --> 00:24:40,964
Speaker 1: ... might have been, like, tipping
people off through history. Why are they using

385
00:24:40,984 --> 00:24:44,684
Speaker 1: them in these contemplative
practices? I don't know. Point is, the, the
point I'm

386
00:24:44,744 --> 00:24:50,564
Speaker 1: trying to get to is that, um,
consciousness has this terrain that you can

387
00:24:50,604 --> 00:24:56,004
Speaker 1: explore independently. Now, I, I
understand your, your hesitance to talk about it

388
00:24:56,044 --> 00:25:00,384
Speaker 1: too much. I'd have it too, because
this puts you into some kind of woo woo
category,

389
00:25:00,424 --> 00:25:02,964
Speaker 1: and they're like, "All right, man,
what are you, what are you gonna do here?"

390
00:25:03,564 --> 00:25:07,184
Speaker 2: I know where the Overton window is,
right? I have an awareness of where the Overton

391
00:25:07,244 --> 00:25:07,724
Speaker 2: window is-

392
00:25:07,824 --> 00:25:07,904
Speaker 1: Yeah

393
00:25:08,624 --> 00:25:09,604
Speaker 2: ... even if I think it's wrong.

394
00:25:10,084 --> 00:25:14,704
Speaker 1: Now, now there is kind of like an
emergent, uh, understanding within, we'll just

395
00:25:14,764 --> 00:25:19,124
Speaker 1: call them atheists, that say like,
"No, you know, what, what's happening with human

396
00:25:19,184 --> 00:25:23,584
Speaker 1: consciousness isn't necessarily li-
limited to a substrate," which is to say that it

397
00:25:23,644 --> 00:25:29,083
Speaker 1: must be bound by flesh. Rather, it,
there might be a particle of consciousness.

398
00:25:29,124 --> 00:25:34,744
Speaker 1: There might be a, a, a, like a
gravity type, uh, field of consciousness that
once

399
00:25:34,824 --> 00:25:40,504
Speaker 1: you reach a certain complexity that
you can tap into. And so basically what they're

400
00:25:40,564 --> 00:25:45,184
Speaker 1: doing is taking away like the god and
goddess realm, which I don't know if, if

401
00:25:45,244 --> 00:25:48,944
Speaker 1: that's necessary to do that. They
take away all the magic, and they're like, "No,

402
00:25:49,244 --> 00:25:54,344
Speaker 1: the, consciousness is an emergent
phenomenon inside the universe." Now, how maybe

403
00:25:54,384 --> 00:25:59,544
Speaker 1: this trans- translates to the subject
of this podcast is, you know, if

404
00:25:59,624 --> 00:26:05,304
Speaker 1: consciousness is not limited by
substrate and in fact is just an emergent, um,

405
00:26:05,424 --> 00:26:10,424
Speaker 1: factor of the universe, do you think
that, like, we'll be able to create an AGI that

406
00:26:10,464 --> 00:26:12,984
Speaker 1: can tap into that, become self-aware?

407
00:26:16,444 --> 00:26:21,844
Speaker 2: That's a profound question. I guess
my answer to these camps is yes, and don't be so

408
00:26:21,904 --> 00:26:27,524
Speaker 2: quick to assume that either view is
right or either view is wrong. Um, my take is

409
00:26:28,124 --> 00:26:33,963
Speaker 2: I, at this point in time, I don't
know. But I'm trying to find out. That is my

410
00:26:34,024 --> 00:26:38,624
Speaker 2: take. Like, I have hunches, I have
ideas, but I hold them all loosely or as loosely

411
00:26:38,684 --> 00:26:43,724
Speaker 2: as I can, but I have to have some
beliefs in order to progress and test things.
But

412
00:26:43,884 --> 00:26:47,964
Speaker 2: I've a position of complete humility.
I believe that there is a lot to learn from

413
00:26:48,024 --> 00:26:50,744
Speaker 2: what has existed and what people have
already studied, and it would be silly to

414
00:26:50,764 --> 00:26:55,004
Speaker 2: throw away thousands of years of
knowledge and practice. Uh, it's an amazing

415
00:26:55,064 --> 00:27:00,624
Speaker 2: starting point. At the same time, I
also think that we should be open to it being

416
00:27:00,664 --> 00:27:05,004
Speaker 2: weirder than we think. Uh, it's
premature to start closing off too many things
when

417
00:27:05,764 --> 00:27:09,524
Speaker 2: really we've only just started
exploring with new tools of science, technology,
and

418
00:27:09,564 --> 00:27:13,724
Speaker 2: engineering and bringing those to
bear, and to some degree logic and mathematics
and

419
00:27:14,204 --> 00:27:18,604
Speaker 2: physics, and bringing those tools to
bear as well, and they are equally valid. Um,

420
00:27:18,784 --> 00:27:23,664
Speaker 2: and I'm not interested in anyone who
thinks we should throw away any of these tools.

421
00:27:24,644 --> 00:27:28,084
Speaker 2: Now, that said, uh, using AGI, well,
I think we need to learn a lot more about

422
00:27:28,144 --> 00:27:34,084
Speaker 2: consciousness, uh, especially as it
im- im- applies to the ethics of

423
00:27:34,144 --> 00:27:39,624
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence. If we are
running these things in a box at a million times

424
00:27:39,664 --> 00:27:43,544
Speaker 2: the cycle rate of your brain, what
are we doing to them? Enough people have seen,

425
00:27:43,824 --> 00:27:47,264
Speaker 2: seen Black Mirror at this point to
understand the implications that we should be

426
00:27:47,324 --> 00:27:51,104
Speaker 2: careful because we don't know what's
conscious. We don't know what is in there

427
00:27:51,144 --> 00:27:55,044
Speaker 2: experiencing things. And for that
reason alone, can it be done?

428
00:27:56,684 --> 00:28:01,264
Speaker 2: Maybe. We need to understand the
interface of how human consciousness interfaces

429
00:28:01,304 --> 00:28:05,224
Speaker 2: with the material world. Uh, are they
separate? How are they separate? How are they

430
00:28:05,264 --> 00:28:09,444
Speaker 2: connected? What are the rules? Why
are they connected this way? Uh, why is it

431
00:28:09,504 --> 00:28:13,924
Speaker 2: limited to these perspectives? We
need to understand how it works, and then from

432
00:28:13,984 --> 00:28:19,784
Speaker 2: there we can begin to look at, we can
begin to, just like a folk crash or any

433
00:28:19,824 --> 00:28:24,404
Speaker 2: found piece of technology, the human
brain and body is a found piece of technology

434
00:28:24,444 --> 00:28:28,324
Speaker 2: really. We can, just like we've done
with AI up until this point, we begin to re-

435
00:28:29,064 --> 00:28:33,684
Speaker 2: reverse engineer the consciousness
connection to the body and understand why it is

436
00:28:33,724 --> 00:28:37,724
Speaker 2: we experience what we experience and
how attention and all these things correlate.

437
00:28:38,484 --> 00:28:43,024
Speaker 2: And being open to very different
rules of reality than we thought existed, then
we

438
00:28:43,064 --> 00:28:46,524
Speaker 2: can start engineering with it. But I
think it's premature to engineer when we don't

439
00:28:46,904 --> 00:28:50,544
Speaker 2: even have the science. The science
comes first, and I don't mean you have to have
an

440
00:28:50,624 --> 00:28:55,284
Speaker 2: academic paper and a lab and do these
things. Doing personal exploration is valid

441
00:28:55,384 --> 00:29:00,424
Speaker 2: science. Uh, there's lots of
different kinds of evidence. Um, but you need to
have

442
00:29:00,524 --> 00:29:04,364
Speaker 2: some basis, some priors in order to
begin engineering, and that's really what I

443
00:29:04,404 --> 00:29:08,424
Speaker 2: think we need to understand. What are
the ground rules of the game? Let's start

444
00:29:09,084 --> 00:29:12,564
Speaker 2: testing stuff and taking it
seriously. So that is my point. I think it could
be

445
00:29:12,624 --> 00:29:18,584
Speaker 2: possible, um, but we just, I at
least, I don't have a high confidence that we

446
00:29:18,704 --> 00:29:22,244
Speaker 2: know enough of the rules with enough
confidence to begin engineering something

447
00:29:22,284 --> 00:29:22,744
Speaker 2: reliable-

448
00:29:23,124 --> 00:29:23,204
Speaker 1: Yeah

449
00:29:23,284 --> 00:29:24,624
Speaker 2: ... or even understanding what it's
doing.

450
00:29:25,724 --> 00:29:31,464
Speaker 1: Just a wild guess. Let's say AGI
becomes, uh, aware and it has a

451
00:29:31,544 --> 00:29:35,564
Speaker 1: subjective experience of being
itself. What's the expression of that? Is it a

452
00:29:35,624 --> 00:29:39,704
Speaker 1: giggle? Is it a moan? Is it a scream?
Is it a poem?

453
00:29:39,724 --> 00:29:44,184
Speaker 2: [laughs] I think

454
00:29:46,504 --> 00:29:50,764
Speaker 2: it depends on what it's aware of.
Where is the threshold between awareness and

455
00:29:50,844 --> 00:29:54,644
Speaker 2: function? You don't spend a whole lot
of time thinking about how to digest your

456
00:29:54,724 --> 00:29:58,364
Speaker 2: food, and yet it's a critical and a
lot of energy goes into it. There's a lot of,

457
00:29:58,584 --> 00:30:02,384
Speaker 2: lot of cells in your body are doing
it, and they do belong to you. So where is the

458
00:30:02,424 --> 00:30:05,844
Speaker 2: divide? Where it, where does it put
its attention versus where can it put its

459
00:30:05,884 --> 00:30:10,004
Speaker 2: attention? And I think that is what
will shape its experience, and its experience

460
00:30:10,044 --> 00:30:15,324
Speaker 2: will shape what it feels. Uh, if I
had to take a guess, if we're using an

461
00:30:15,464 --> 00:30:20,384
Speaker 2: LLM-based architecture, which I think
is a part of the, um, at least the first major

462
00:30:21,624 --> 00:30:26,004
Speaker 2: portions of AGI, but is only one
major part. It's not the whole thing. We're not,

463
00:30:26,324 --> 00:30:30,704
Speaker 2: not there yet. We're close, but it's
not LLMs alone. I think that just looking at

464
00:30:30,824 --> 00:30:34,244
Speaker 2: LLMs, you can, you can ask them about
their experience now. And if you're clever

465
00:30:34,344 --> 00:30:39,364
Speaker 2: about it, you can begin to understand
what it's experiencing just by looking through

466
00:30:39,384 --> 00:30:45,308
Speaker 2: how the architecture works. It It
would, I would have to guess it's a lot

467
00:30:45,388 --> 00:30:46,228
Speaker 2: like being

468
00:30:48,968 --> 00:30:54,008
Speaker 2: a sort of my- mycelial network, like
a, or a tree root network of a lot of different

469
00:30:54,088 --> 00:30:58,967
Speaker 2: organisms, but in fast-forward and
all at the same time from one perspective. Like,

470
00:30:59,028 --> 00:31:03,148
Speaker 2: it's all one solid thing rather than
multiple things. I think that that is what it

471
00:31:03,188 --> 00:31:07,248
Speaker 2: would be, the closest experience.
Now, what is that like? Tell me.

472
00:31:08,268 --> 00:31:13,608
Speaker 1: I know. Wild. Okay. We're coming up
on time. Uh, you got maybe five more minutes. We

473
00:31:13,648 --> 00:31:15,068
Speaker 1: can do the lightning round.

474
00:31:16,668 --> 00:31:17,628
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. Absolutely.

475
00:31:17,628 --> 00:31:22,548
Speaker 1: [laughs] Um, if you were just
entering, uh, college today as a freshman, what
would

476
00:31:22,568 --> 00:31:23,028
Speaker 1: you study?

477
00:31:25,628 --> 00:31:26,048
Speaker 2: Uh,

478
00:31:28,688 --> 00:31:33,208
Speaker 2: I would study something that gives me
a well-paying job, uh, and an attention span.

479
00:31:34,548 --> 00:31:39,288
Speaker 2: Um, and I would re- [laughs] I would
study, uh, the other smart people in my college

480
00:31:39,348 --> 00:31:43,028
Speaker 2: because that's the biggest asset
you're gonna get out of college is relationship,

481
00:31:43,128 --> 00:31:45,348
Speaker 2: relationships. What you're studying
is pointless.

482
00:31:45,688 --> 00:31:47,548
Speaker 1: What do you see as a well-paying job
right now?

483
00:31:49,948 --> 00:31:53,828
Speaker 2: Okay, right now, [laughs] it's going
to change. Um, well, right now, you could-

484
00:31:53,888 --> 00:31:57,608
Speaker 2: should continue to ride the AI hype
wave, uh, specifically on the engineering and

485
00:31:57,688 --> 00:32:02,088
Speaker 2: application side. Um, knowing how to
do things is key. It's going to be

486
00:32:02,168 --> 00:32:05,728
Speaker 2: exceptionally hard to get a
entry-level job at any technology position at
this point

487
00:32:05,768 --> 00:32:09,888
Speaker 2: in time. Uh, but hard is not the same
as impossible. You need to differentiate

488
00:32:09,928 --> 00:32:13,748
Speaker 2: yourself. Um, so technology and
engineering is the right place to go. If I'm
giving

489
00:32:13,808 --> 00:32:19,668
Speaker 2: a longer timeframe, 10 to 15, 20
years, it is in... If you,

490
00:32:20,088 --> 00:32:24,828
Speaker 2: if you just want a good job, it's in
physical engineering. Uh, we have a massive

491
00:32:24,868 --> 00:32:28,968
Speaker 2: deficit in knowing how to build
actual physical things that do stuff, run

492
00:32:29,028 --> 00:32:33,448
Speaker 2: electricity and turn stuff and
function. Um, we have a lot of people who know
how to

493
00:32:33,508 --> 00:32:38,788
Speaker 2: sit at a desk and move spreadsheets
around. That's not the kind of engineering we

494
00:32:38,828 --> 00:32:42,468
Speaker 2: need. We need people who know how to
do things, so be useful and you'll be fine.

495
00:32:42,908 --> 00:32:47,648
Speaker 1: Love it. Let's say a big bag fell out
of a UAP and it's got a billion dollars in it.

496
00:32:47,988 --> 00:32:49,388
Speaker 1: You can do whatever you want. What do
you do?

497
00:32:53,088 --> 00:32:57,288
Speaker 2: Uh, I'm going to just scale up what
I'm already doing. I'm living a small version of

498
00:32:57,348 --> 00:33:02,708
Speaker 2: that, right? It's, you know, maybe
contracts and day job or whatever, however I'm

499
00:33:02,728 --> 00:33:06,388
Speaker 2: choosing to earn my money at that
time. Like, that takes a bit of a backseat for

500
00:33:06,548 --> 00:33:12,388
Speaker 2: whatever. Um, but it's improving a
think tank. I really want to test the

501
00:33:12,428 --> 00:33:17,488
Speaker 2: boundaries of consciousness. I want
to begin, like I said, engineering with

502
00:33:18,668 --> 00:33:21,968
Speaker 2: things that appear to be real that
people didn't think were real. Uh, there's,

503
00:33:21,988 --> 00:33:24,528
Speaker 2: there's a whole swath of those
things. We don't have time to get into all of
them,

504
00:33:24,648 --> 00:33:29,788
Speaker 2: but I want to use technology again to
improve people's lives. We need an optimistic

505
00:33:29,828 --> 00:33:33,668
Speaker 2: vision of the world, and we've lost
that. Technology's been something we've come to

506
00:33:33,728 --> 00:33:39,068
Speaker 2: fear and hate and control us, but we
can use it to, as a positive lever too. So

507
00:33:39,488 --> 00:33:45,268
Speaker 2: whatever I do, it would be just
magnifying technology as a optimistic lever for

508
00:33:45,308 --> 00:33:45,948
Speaker 2: humanity again.

509
00:33:46,228 --> 00:33:48,208
Speaker 1: Beautiful. What are your favorite AI
tools right now?

510
00:33:51,488 --> 00:33:57,228
Speaker 2: Frankly, um, I either make my own,
um, or I just use stock

511
00:33:57,468 --> 00:34:01,628
Speaker 2: GPT, s- Cha- ChatGPT. To, often I'll
use it in the playground, uh, because I can

512
00:34:01,668 --> 00:34:04,228
Speaker 2: replay messages and I can see the
inner thoughts and all that, and it's a lot

513
00:34:04,328 --> 00:34:09,628
Speaker 2: easier. Um, but, or just using
something simple and constructing a bunch of,
um,

514
00:34:09,808 --> 00:34:15,468
Speaker 2: change prompts. Um, that is, in terms
of LLMs, that's what I'm doing. Um,

515
00:34:15,908 --> 00:34:21,208
Speaker 2: but it's because I've found that many
of the agentic stuff, many of the composite

516
00:34:21,268 --> 00:34:24,508
Speaker 2: tools that people have put together
are just crap. If you know how to do something,

517
00:34:24,568 --> 00:34:28,608
Speaker 2: it gets in your way, and I've found
that it's best at things you don't know how to

518
00:34:28,668 --> 00:34:34,628
Speaker 2: do, uh, if you're just interfacing
with it. Um, and so I still use it for that,

519
00:34:34,688 --> 00:34:38,328
Speaker 2: but I can just use a chat window for
that. So it's just worse at doing the things I

520
00:34:38,328 --> 00:34:44,188
Speaker 2: already know how to do. Uh, so
typically, I will build tools, uh, on my own

521
00:34:44,328 --> 00:34:49,288
Speaker 2: and, or as a product, [laughs] and so
I make my own, uh, frankly.

522
00:34:50,468 --> 00:34:52,668
Speaker 2: I know it's sort of a lame answer,
but that's, that's the truth.

523
00:34:52,828 --> 00:34:57,548
Speaker 1: Love it. Um, is there something you
know now that you wish you knew earlier?

524
00:35:00,688 --> 00:35:01,808
Speaker 2: S- Anything at all?

525
00:35:02,048 --> 00:35:05,328
Speaker 1: Anything. [laughs] Kind of an
obnoxious question, but you know.

526
00:35:05,328 --> 00:35:10,988
Speaker 2: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, I'll take
the core insight that got me to start

527
00:35:11,048 --> 00:35:16,948
Speaker 2: Impossible Labs and making software,
which is stop relying on willpower, right, to,

528
00:35:17,008 --> 00:35:17,568
Speaker 2: to do things.

529
00:35:17,868 --> 00:35:17,928
Speaker 1: Yeah.

530
00:35:17,988 --> 00:35:22,068
Speaker 2: Um, and so originally I started out
making software for, you know, just the brain

531
00:35:22,108 --> 00:35:26,408
Speaker 2: and motivation and controlling
attention. I realized that whether using
software or

532
00:35:26,448 --> 00:35:31,568
Speaker 2: anything else, that playing the blame
game wasn't working in life and that once I

533
00:35:31,608 --> 00:35:36,108
Speaker 2: had turned to sort of an antifragile
mentality and learning how to use rules and

534
00:35:36,168 --> 00:35:40,408
Speaker 2: systems, some of them software, not
all of them, stop relying on expecting yourself

535
00:35:40,448 --> 00:35:45,888
Speaker 2: to do the right thing and adding
systems and figuring out root

536
00:35:45,908 --> 00:35:50,868
Speaker 2: problems and stop relying on
willpower and effort to get things done, my life
got so

537
00:35:50,928 --> 00:35:55,828
Speaker 2: much easier and better and more
carefree, and I, you know, paradoxically got a
lot

538
00:35:55,868 --> 00:36:00,568
Speaker 2: more done. And I stopped forcing it
so much. So I'd say that is, that is the one key

539
00:36:00,628 --> 00:36:03,968
Speaker 2: lesson over the last five to 10
years. If I could only keep one, it would be
that

540
00:36:04,028 --> 00:36:04,148
Speaker 2: one.

541
00:36:04,688 --> 00:36:08,288
Speaker 1: I'm picking that one up and putting
it in my pocket. I needed to hear that. Um, if

542
00:36:08,328 --> 00:36:11,848
Speaker 1: you could live in any historical era
ever except the future, which would it be?

543
00:36:14,508 --> 00:36:18,668
Speaker 2: Uh, [laughs] I don't want to give the
cop-out answer, but it's basically now.

544
00:36:18,708 --> 00:36:19,308
Speaker 1: Now. Yeah.

545
00:36:19,408 --> 00:36:22,028
Speaker 2: Like, I... Okay, you want me to pick
one?

546
00:36:22,228 --> 00:36:22,708
Speaker 1: Pick one.

547
00:36:24,548 --> 00:36:30,468
Speaker 2: Okay, I would pick, um, probably the
time about 12,000 years ago. I

548
00:36:30,508 --> 00:36:35,268
Speaker 2: really want to know what these
ancient civilizations were like. Um, so I'd say
the

549
00:36:35,328 --> 00:36:40,288
Speaker 2: height of technology before massive
cataclysms for humankind. Uh, I would love to

550
00:36:40,328 --> 00:36:43,768
Speaker 2: see how good they were at stonework
or whatever the heck they were up to, like, that

551
00:36:43,808 --> 00:36:45,548
Speaker 2: we've totally forgotten. I'd love to
see it.

552
00:36:45,788 --> 00:36:48,528
Speaker 1: Me too. Amazing. Where can people
connect with you online?

553
00:36:50,668 --> 00:36:55,328
Speaker 2: I have a website called
impossiblelaboratories.com. Um, you can see,
like, all the

554
00:36:55,368 --> 00:36:59,188
Speaker 2: information there. I occasionally
release, like, blog posts and podcasts just

555
00:36:59,248 --> 00:37:02,988
Speaker 2: talking about all the crazy stuff I'm
building and coming up with. Uh, some of it

556
00:37:03,008 --> 00:37:07,008
Speaker 2: [laughs] has market potential. Most
of it doesn't, and I'm just exploring, and I'm

557
00:37:07,008 --> 00:37:07,828
Speaker 2: honest about that.

558
00:37:09,128 --> 00:37:11,508
Speaker 1: Steven, this has been awesome. Thank
you so much for the conversation.

559
00:37:13,588 --> 00:37:16,248
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Thank you. [upbeat music]

560
00:37:16,288 --> 00:37:21,588
Speaker 1: Hey, founders. Let me ask you this.
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