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Source: collected/006-dev-commentary-6-interview-with-the-creative-mindset-mortal-steel-wrapup-season-2-updates.mp3
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00:00:00.120 Speaker 1 [intro jingle]
00:00:06.020 Speaker 1 Hello, travelers. So today's gonna be a pretty short dev commentary. After the
00:00:10.600 Speaker 1 commentary, I'm going to air an interview I did with a friend, Tony, on a podcast
00:00:14.820 Speaker 1 called "The Creative Mindset."
00:00:18.420 Speaker 1 Mortal Steel Episode 10 will not be ready for your morning commute tomorrow, but it
00:00:22.720 Speaker 1 will come out tomorrow. It took a little bit longer because I had to do some
00:00:26.820 Speaker 1 non-human voice effects that took an enormous amount of time. But I think it's gonna
00:00:31.960 Speaker 1 be worth the wait. So it'll still come out tomorrow. There's actually gonna be
00:00:35.480 Speaker 1 another delay between Mortal Steel episodes 11 and 12. Now,
00:00:41.200 Speaker 1 that's purely because episode 12, the finale for Mortal Steel, is incredibly
00:00:47.060 Speaker 1 awesome and almost twice as long as a normal episode. So I wanna make sure I take
00:00:52.340 Speaker 1 the time to get that one right. I think it'll take about three weeks. It could take
00:00:56.400 Speaker 1 up to four weeks. Now, if it takes over three weeks, I will take a little bit of
00:01:00.900 Speaker 1 time to create a short story, and I'll drop that here. And that's because
00:01:07.100 Speaker 1 Steven always delivers. Let it be known. I always deliver.
00:01:14.020 Speaker 1 All right, moving on to some more news. You're probably going to want to pick up a
00:01:18.860 Speaker 1 little bit of Ethereum or Solana. Now, if you don't know what those are, don't worry
00:01:23.720 Speaker 1 about it.
00:01:25.740 Speaker 1 I'm gonna do a whole bit of blockchain and NFT education later in the year, maybe
00:01:31.380 Speaker 1 early next year. So if you don't know what those are, don't worry about it. And
00:01:35.280 Speaker 1 you're not gonna need much, because remember, you're here early, and the people who
00:01:40.160 Speaker 1 are here early and support early. And if you listened to the last dev commentary,
00:01:46.580 Speaker 1 you know that I reward early supporters. All right, next up, we're
00:01:52.600 Speaker 1 gonna run a contest towards the end of November, early December, for sound design
00:01:57.300 Speaker 1 and writing. So if you want an opportunity to learn how to make sound effects like
00:02:01.960 Speaker 1 we do in Mortal Steel or try your hand at writing, this is a good opportunity for
00:02:06.860 Speaker 1 you. There's gonna be some cash prizes, and I'm collaborating with another creator,
00:02:11.460 Speaker 1 and we're gonna have some, uh, other interesting prizes as well. You'll hear a
00:02:16.220 Speaker 1 little bit more about that probably in a week or two as we finalize the details.
00:02:20.300 Speaker 1 While this contest is just for writing and sound design, if you're a visual artist
00:02:24.980 Speaker 1 or a musician, uh, I'd still like to hear from you. We're gonna need all sorts going
00:02:30.220 Speaker 1 forward, and now would be a great time to connect. Now, if you're a 3D
00:02:35.940 Speaker 1 modeler, I would really like to speak with you. I'll let you use your
00:02:41.260 Speaker 1 imagination on why I might need that one.
00:02:45.160 Speaker 1 All right, moving on to season two updates. The casting calls are going out soon for
00:02:50.280 Speaker 1 season two. Art and music is still underway. And I can say that the visual art looks
00:02:56.120 Speaker 1 incredibly cool. And if you're not already aware, season two is not a direct sequel
00:03:01.960 Speaker 1 to Mortal Steel. It's an entirely separate story in an entirely new world with
00:03:06.340 Speaker 1 different characters. And we're gonna be doing that with every season. Now, that
00:03:11.280 Speaker 1 doesn't mean that we can't or won't do direct sequels. But if we're gonna do direct
00:03:16.460 Speaker 1 sequels, we're gonna need more money, and we're gonna need a bigger team.
00:03:21.720 Speaker 1 Speaking of which, for season two, I am going to try to
00:03:27.680 Speaker 1 absolutely blow your minds. So part of that means I have doubled
00:03:33.720 Speaker 1 the production for art and music. I am increasing the budget everywhere I can to
00:03:39.520 Speaker 1 make it awesome. And the reason I'm doing that is I have a theory. I believe that
00:03:45.280 Speaker 1 doubling down on the production quality is the way to help everybody.
00:03:52.100 Speaker 1 I think it's what you want.
00:03:54.640 Speaker 1 And it's really a leap of faith, honestly. I choose to believe that this money is
00:03:59.480 Speaker 1 gonna come back to us eventually because people want to support creators who are
00:04:05.280 Speaker 1 putting in the time, putting in the money, putting in the effort to make something
00:04:10.080 Speaker 1 great. And we're putting in 30, 40-hour weeks on this show while working full-time.
00:04:15.720 Speaker 1 It's not easy. And at our current burn rate, especially the new burn rate with this
00:04:20.579 Speaker 1 increased production budget, we're probably gonna run out of money in about six
00:04:24.120 Speaker 1 months. Now, that sounds very scary, but we've got six months. And
00:04:30.160 Speaker 1 until then, like I said, I am going to do absolutely everything
00:04:36.100 Speaker 1 I can to blow your minds.
00:04:42.260 Speaker 1 Finally, remember,
00:04:46.400 Speaker 1 Collected is not mine. It's ours. I'm just getting it started. This is
00:04:52.360 Speaker 1 an ecosystem. It's going to take a lot of people, a lot of effort, and a
00:04:58.400 Speaker 1 fair amount of money to bring this vision to life.
00:05:02.520 Speaker 1 But when you start to see what I have planned, oh man, it is so,
00:05:09.120 Speaker 1 so going to be worth it. This is not a podcast. It looks like a podcast right now,
00:05:15.440 Speaker 1 but it really is not.
00:05:18.600 Speaker 1 Now, without further ado, let's hear my interview with Tony at The Creative
00:05:24.660 Speaker 1 Mindset. See you, travelers.
00:05:30.160 Speaker 2 Mortal Steel. [rock music] Pastor Ethan
00:05:36.200 Speaker 2 Cutter was wheeled down the hallway of the advanced clinic, the only such building
00:05:40.560 Speaker 2 in Last Respite, one of the three remaining human strongholds in the old Los Angeles
00:05:45.740 Speaker 2 area. It differed from the other clinics in Last Respite. Those were hot, cramped
00:05:50.820 Speaker 2 buildings packed with people too sick to cure, too injured to heal. If you went to a
00:05:56.380 Speaker 2 clinic, you usually went there to die. Steven Schrembeck.
00:06:02.240 Speaker 1 Hey, Tony.
00:06:03.320 Speaker 2 Hey, how's it going, man?
00:06:04.960 Speaker 1 You know, life is, is too good to me. I keep waking up and thinking it can't be
00:06:09.120 Speaker 1 real. [laughs]
00:06:10.390 Speaker 3 Oh, really?
00:06:11.770 Speaker 1 I, I love it. I really do love my life. Uh, and it is an active thing, uh, that I
00:06:16.830 Speaker 1 cultivate that mindset, but it works and I'm just having fun. I really am
00:06:22.670 Speaker 1 having fun. It's not all fun, but it's almost all fun.
00:06:27.190 Speaker 3 Yeah? Cool. What, what's fun?
00:06:30.670 Speaker 1 I wake up every day trying to do something, trying to make the most out of the
00:06:36.470 Speaker 1 day. Um, and this is, again, this is a deliberate mindset. I don't always, didn't
00:06:41.570 Speaker 1 always do that. But now I just have this feeling that today is, like, potential.
00:06:47.690 Speaker 1 It's something I can use to make something important happen, right? This is, like,
00:06:52.490 Speaker 1 my ammunition. This is all, all I've got. Uh, as opposed to just waking up and
00:06:56.290 Speaker 1 trying to get through the day, I am waking up like, "How much can I squeeze out of
00:07:00.870 Speaker 1 this day, uh, in the best possible way?" I do a lot of boring stuff that's
00:07:05.030 Speaker 1 important, [laughs] but... And I don't look forward to those things, right? Those
00:07:09.910 Speaker 1 are still painful, but I look forward to what it means. I feel like I'm making
00:07:14.369 Speaker 1 progress every day, right?
00:07:16.150 Speaker 3 Forward movement, man. That's my phrase for 2021, forward movement.
00:07:20.450 Speaker 1 [laughs] Okay.
00:07:21.910 Speaker 3 Well, I mean, how, how do you sustain that attitude? I mean, what is it that excites
00:07:26.730 Speaker 3 you?
00:07:26.930 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:07:27.090 Speaker 3 What's the stuff that you're thinking of that gets you motivated?
00:07:30.170 Speaker 1 Most of it comes from feeding a passion, right? And it is, it is l- it is a
00:07:35.310 Speaker 1 deliberate act of will. This isn't just something you get. It doesn't just
00:07:41.170 Speaker 1 happen to you, this kind of excitement and fulfillment. You have to build it. And
00:07:45.470 Speaker 1 it... The fire dies down just a little bit every day, too. You have to keep putting
00:07:49.770 Speaker 1 logs on it, right? I think that's a very apt metaphor. Um, so what kinds of things
00:07:54.490 Speaker 1 are... excite me? Well, I mean, that's just unique to me, right? Certain kinds of
00:07:58.010 Speaker 1 projects, certain kinds of ideas get me really excited. You know, everyone's got
00:08:02.310 Speaker 1 their own thing. For me, it's tinkering. It's figuring out what the rules are for a
00:08:06.350 Speaker 1 system and then breaking them or seeing just how far you can press them. It's... I
00:08:10.970 Speaker 1 am heavily motivated by curiosity. I'd say that's a driving force in my life and
00:08:16.410 Speaker 1 everything I'm interested in. The moment I feel like I know what's going to happen
00:08:21.330 Speaker 1 in whatever I'm doing, I'm no longer interested. I, I need that uncertainty to keep
00:08:26.330 Speaker 1 me going. So I kinda live, I try to live on the edge. [laughs] This sounds very
00:08:31.650 Speaker 1 exciting. We're talking about, like, writing stories here. [laughs] I'm not actually
00:08:37.670 Speaker 1 living on the edge. I'm not, like, a stunt driver or anything. Um, but I love that
00:08:42.370 Speaker 1 uncertainty. It's in- it's intoxicating to me. Uh, but also potential, right? Not
00:08:46.450 Speaker 1 just uncertainty in a terrible way. Is it gonna hurt a five or is it gonna hurt 10?
00:08:49.790 Speaker 1 Like, that's not exciting. Um, it has to be good.
00:08:54.070 Speaker 3 Yeah. So I'm gonna guess you're not the kinda person that likes to rewatch movies or
00:08:58.730 Speaker 3 TV shows that you've already seen.
00:09:00.630 Speaker 1 No. I hate that.
00:09:01.710 Speaker 3 Me too.
00:09:01.950 Speaker 1 I don't understand it. I never understood the people who did. Uh, I watch it once
00:09:06.490 Speaker 1 and I love it. Now, the very best, the very best I will watch again, but I will
00:09:11.430 Speaker 1 watch them again, like, a year or two later. Like, Scott Pilgrim vs. the World,
00:09:15.450 Speaker 1 okay, I've probably got five views on that.
00:09:17.330 Speaker 3 [laughs]
00:09:17.550 Speaker 1 And you're, like, top, top of the charts. Like, that's the most I will ever watch a
00:09:20.770 Speaker 1 favorite movie, which sounds crazy, but I would rather watch something new.
00:09:27.070 Speaker 3 Yeah, agreed. Me too. Although recently I, I have gone back and started watching
00:09:31.910 Speaker 3 things that I watched-
00:09:33.310 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:09:33.310 Speaker 3 ... about 10 years ago. And some of them I remember and I skip through those
00:09:37.030 Speaker 3 episodes.
00:09:37.870 Speaker 1 Yeah. I watch it, but what's funny is when I rewatch it, I watch it to find
00:09:42.390 Speaker 1 something new. Even then, I'm not just basking in what I already love. I'm still
00:09:47.430 Speaker 1 looking for the things I missed, and when I feel like there's nothing left there,
00:09:51.770 Speaker 1 uh, I'm out. [laughs]
00:09:54.170 Speaker 3 Yeah. Also, you're different. 10 years has passed. I'm different.
00:09:58.410 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:09:58.910 Speaker 3 And I see things and find m- meaning in a different way from, from it than I
00:10:04.830 Speaker 3 did 10 years ago when I didn't-
00:10:06.170 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:10:06.170 Speaker 3 ... really... You know, I never liked Star Trek: Enterprise.
00:10:09.770 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:10:10.250 Speaker 3 You know the one with Scott Bakula?
00:10:12.490 Speaker 1 Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
00:10:14.270 Speaker 3 S- I watched maybe three episodes and said, "This sucked," and I hated-
00:10:17.370 Speaker 1 [laughs]
00:10:17.970 Speaker 3 ... Jolene Blalock. Uh, well, I... Not her, but her character, T'Pol.
00:10:23.750 Speaker 1 It's impersonal.
00:10:25.730 Speaker 3 Just recently have I gone back, 'cause I don't watch that much television, but I'll
00:10:29.369 Speaker 3 watch... I'll try... You know, I may watch one episode a night if I am really into
00:10:34.530 Speaker 3 the show, and I really am into... I really got into Enterprise and I came to really
00:10:39.330 Speaker 3 love the character of T'Pol, and I watched the thing from start to finish, and it's
00:10:44.550 Speaker 3 because I'm different.
00:10:46.370 Speaker 1 So what changed is you. It's like changing taste, right? You used to hate broccoli,
00:10:51.010 Speaker 1 now you love it, right? It's, you have to resample things because you change as a
00:10:56.570 Speaker 1 person. Yeah, that makes sense.
00:10:58.750 Speaker 1 [instrumental music]
00:11:04.390 Speaker 3 Pastor Ethan Cutter was wheeled down the hallway of the Advanced Clinic, the only
00:11:08.990 Speaker 3 such building in Last Respite, one of the three remaining human strongholds in the
00:11:13.730 Speaker 3 old Los Angeles area. It differed from the other clinics in Last Respite. Those were
00:11:18.890 Speaker 3 hot, cramped buildings packed with people too sick to cure, too injured to heal. If
00:11:24.850 Speaker 3 you went to a clinic, you usually went there to die. The Advanced Clinic, in stark
00:11:30.010 Speaker 3 contrast, was the pinnacle of human achievement. It was the place you went to become
00:11:35.190 Speaker 3 something greater. But like the other clinics, it was also a place you usually went
00:11:41.070 Speaker 3 to die. Ethan told himself he was prepared to die. He'd told everyone else that at
00:11:46.230 Speaker 3 every step along the way, but as they prepped him for surgery, he found that he was
00:11:51.030 Speaker 3 actually terrified. Maybe it wasn't too late to back out. Dr.
00:11:56.770 Speaker 3 Marie Singer glanced at a rapidly beeping machine.
00:12:00.630 Speaker 4 Your heart rate's rising.
00:12:02.830 Speaker 5 What can I expect here, Doc?
00:12:04.870 Speaker 3 She smiled reassuringly and held his hand as they wheeled his gurney toward the
00:12:08.670 Speaker 3 operating room.
00:12:10.402 Speaker 4 This will be easier than any of your training until now. This next step is on us.
00:12:16.922 Speaker 4 We'll take good care of you
00:12:19.022 Speaker 1 Just like they'd taken care of the first three candidates before him? The ones that
00:12:24.142 Speaker 1 had died on the operating room floor? He wasn't supposed to know about that.
00:12:32.662 Speaker 6 What is Collected Stories?
00:12:34.222 Speaker 1 So, uh, straight off the marketing, Collective is a immersive audio platform.
00:12:41.702 Speaker 1 And what does that mean exactly? It's... These are just... It's like an audiobook
00:12:45.742 Speaker 1 with sound effects, a full team of voice actors, music, visual art, right? It's
00:12:49.602 Speaker 1 everything I could throw in there that makes it feel like you're actually there,
00:12:53.662 Speaker 1 right? It's like a TV show with the picture turned off, right? That's what I'm
00:12:57.422 Speaker 1 trying to do. But there's a narrator. That's, that's the trick, right? I throw that
00:13:00.942 Speaker 1 in there. Um, so it is those stories. Right now it's a podcast, uh, because I am in
00:13:06.882 Speaker 1 the trenches. Like, I am building this thing and getting practice, and it's a
00:13:10.722 Speaker 1 podcast just so I can get it out there. Uh, but eventually it's a subscription
00:13:15.082 Speaker 1 service, right? So sometime early next year. Um, it's not just art to me, it's
00:13:20.002 Speaker 1 business. Um, so early next year the business really starts. Um, yeah, so
00:13:26.022 Speaker 1 monthly subscription. I'm gonna bring in authors and voice actors and artists and
00:13:30.402 Speaker 1 composers from everywhere. Um, so that is what it is, is these stories delivered to
00:13:35.602 Speaker 1 you weekly, kind of like a TV show almost, dropping into an RSS feed. But really,
00:13:42.302 Speaker 1 that's just, like, what it is. The reason behind it is so much more to me, and I
00:13:47.242 Speaker 1 find myself more and more motivated by the why, that second reason, not just making
00:13:52.682 Speaker 1 the art, but the purpose for the art. I find more and more my motivation is coming
00:13:57.182 Speaker 1 from that why, rather than just self-gratification of making something cool. Now, I
00:14:01.802 Speaker 1 still feel that, and I still love it. I still love making the art. But now that it
00:14:06.902 Speaker 1 has a purpose beyond me, I'm that much more motivated.
00:14:11.662 Speaker 6 That's cool. Well, it's, it's pretty amazing. When we first met, when you said, uh,
00:14:17.102 Speaker 6 this is what you were doing, you know, my first impression was, uh, okay, put it on
00:14:21.362 Speaker 6 audible.com and somebody's reading a... It, it'll be like somebody reading a book.
00:14:25.742 Speaker 6 But it's not that at all. It's extremely compelling. The stories are really good,
00:14:31.082 Speaker 6 and the production is, is very good, too.
00:14:34.162 Speaker 1 Always improving.
00:14:35.622 Speaker 6 Yeah, man. When you and I first met, it was just you, but you have grown this into,
00:14:40.862 Speaker 6 you, like you said, you hire voice act- You hire actors-
00:14:45.742 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:14:45.742 Speaker 6 ... and you are adding sound effects and layered textures
00:14:51.442 Speaker 6 and narration. I very much enjoy listening. I get into this stuff.
00:14:56.462 Speaker 1 Yeah, it started as a theory, and most people have that reaction, by the way. Eh,
00:15:00.242 Speaker 1 it's an audiobook, right? What do I get? And so some people know what an audio drama
00:15:05.222 Speaker 1 is. They may remember the old radio dramas or know of them, right? It is... I
00:15:10.362 Speaker 1 describe this as halfway between an audiobook and an audio drama. I am so excited
00:15:15.002 Speaker 1 about this format, totally independent what if I'm doing. I really hope it takes
00:15:18.882 Speaker 1 off. Like, totally separate from me, other people go off and make this, because I
00:15:23.282 Speaker 1 think it really has potential. It is just so, so cool. It offers
00:15:29.122 Speaker 1 something that none of the other mediums offer. I can get into that. I can geek out
00:15:33.102 Speaker 1 on that. But ultimately, that's part of what motivates me, is I think there's
00:15:36.782 Speaker 1 something here. It's not something I made. It has a life of its own. It is an
00:15:42.022 Speaker 1 opportunity in the world, uh, that has already existed. It was already there. I'm
00:15:47.722 Speaker 1 just somebody who stumbled on it, right? I'm not even the first person to stumble
00:15:51.622 Speaker 1 upon this idea. I'm just the first person to take it and use it in this way
00:15:57.782 Speaker 1 for a subscription business, right? Um.
00:16:00.182 Speaker 6 What's also cool is you do it all by yourself.
00:16:02.742 Speaker 1 [laughs] Yeah.
00:16:03.782 Speaker 6 But, but at, uh, y- at least you're doing it right now by design. Other companies
00:16:08.002 Speaker 6 that are, uh, what did you say? Uh, GraphicAudio? They have a huge
00:16:13.802 Speaker 6 budget and lots of people working on it. Why did you decide to work on this and do
00:16:18.862 Speaker 6 all the recording and editing and marketing and everything all by yourself?
00:16:24.322 Speaker 1 First of all, yeah, GraphicAudio is probably my closest competitor, right, in
00:16:28.662 Speaker 1 format. And huge props to those people. I love their productions. I think it is so
00:16:34.202 Speaker 1 cool. Like, I'm not trying to put them down at all. I see really no competition
00:16:37.742 Speaker 1 there. That's an illusion. Uh, but yes, at face value, it looks like competition.
00:16:43.022 Speaker 1 But yeah, they have big teams, big production, right? Compared to me, right? It's
00:16:46.562 Speaker 1 all relative. Um, the reason I chose to do it alone, and I've been at this for
00:16:52.622 Speaker 1 eight months, everything except the writing, right? I've been writing for 16 years,
00:16:57.462 Speaker 1 uh, but not ever professionally. So eight months on this skill set. Yes, I
00:17:03.402 Speaker 1 do the narration, I do the sound design, I do the directing, I do everything.
00:17:08.202 Speaker 1 Everything which is not the voice acting, uh, and the visual art and the music
00:17:12.202 Speaker 1 composing. But even then, I went in there and I did most of the music myself.
00:17:16.122 Speaker 1 [laughs] And the reason I do all of this myself is because I have plans to
00:17:21.842 Speaker 1 eventually direct experts who are gonna be better than I ever could be at any of
00:17:27.462 Speaker 1 these skills, because it's the one thing they focus on. I know that's where I'm
00:17:32.082 Speaker 1 going, but I need to understand their problems. I need to
00:17:37.602 Speaker 1 understand how they think and what, how they build their part of the story. Once I
00:17:42.982 Speaker 1 become expert in each of these pieces, right? Some of them I care about more than
00:17:46.762 Speaker 1 others, to be frank. [laughs] Those are the ones I've outsourced already. But I just
00:17:52.542 Speaker 1 know that if I can master these skills to a sufficient degree, that when it comes
00:17:58.102 Speaker 1 time to tell them what I need from them, I know how to get the best out of them. I
00:18:02.562 Speaker 1 can direct this diverse team. I believe fundamentally that to be the best leader,
00:18:08.202 Speaker 1 you have to understand every single one of the people under you. You have to be able
00:18:12.582 Speaker 1 to do their job. Doesn't mean you have to be able to do it better than them- You
00:18:16.286 Speaker 1 shouldn't, otherwise it's kind of pointless, right? You could just do it yourself. I
00:18:20.406 Speaker 1 think that you need to understand their problems, and that's what I'm doing. I'm
00:18:25.806 Speaker 1 forcing myself to be in the thick of it so that when it comes time to start
00:18:29.546 Speaker 1 outsourcing sound design or mixing or whatever I'm doing, not only do I know their
00:18:34.526 Speaker 1 language, I know how to do their job. So first of all, it's way easier to hire and
00:18:39.566 Speaker 1 to-- you can never be BS'd by somebody because you know how to do it. Uh, so there's
00:18:45.406 Speaker 1 a lot of reasons to know this from a business perspective, but also I hate
00:18:51.226 Speaker 1 not understanding things. We talk about how I was mo-motivated by curiosity. I hate
00:18:56.066 Speaker 1 not understanding something and how it works, especially a thing that I'm building,
00:19:00.526 Speaker 1 right? I have to know how all the pieces work. I don't need to be the best at it,
00:19:05.406 Speaker 1 but that's how I feel. So I'm learning how all the pieces work, I guess is the
00:19:09.386 Speaker 1 fastest way to answer that.
00:19:11.206 Speaker 6 Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, you're acquiring skills that will make you a better
00:19:15.586 Speaker 6 leader and producer.
00:19:17.626 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:19:18.686 Speaker 6 You have a long-term vision for this. With everybody I've interviewed so far, there
00:19:24.666 Speaker 6 seems to be a pattern of pronouncing your intentions almost as if the pronouncement,
00:19:30.266 Speaker 6 it's a step that you can't skip.
00:19:32.666 Speaker 1 That is exactly right. Plans are pointless, but they are also essential. This is-- I
00:19:38.306 Speaker 1 think that there's a famous quote here that I'm not quite hitting, but you
00:19:41.686 Speaker 1 understand what I mean. There is something intoxicating about saying eight ball,
00:19:45.966 Speaker 1 corner pocket, and then lining up the shot and then sinking it, right? It is the
00:19:51.266 Speaker 1 intention to go somewhere that matters. That clarity
00:19:57.026 Speaker 1 resolves your entire path for you. You know what to do from that point forward. The
00:20:01.346 Speaker 1 point of the goal is not to be right at the outset. Ten years from now, here's where
00:20:06.386 Speaker 1 I'm gonna be no matter what. That's not important. It's actually not even important
00:20:09.846 Speaker 1 that I reach that point, because there's a ninety-nine percent chance I'm gonna move
00:20:14.026 Speaker 1 that goalpost to somewhere else for a lot of good reasons, not just bad reasons.
00:20:18.366 Speaker 1 Like, oh, turns out that's actually not what I wanted, or this wasn't the best way
00:20:21.606 Speaker 1 to get there. The point of putting that goal there is to give yourself
00:20:27.206 Speaker 1 certainty. It is, it is critical to motivation, is,
00:20:33.186 Speaker 1 is the shortest way of saying that. And there's something about
00:20:38.886 Speaker 1 setting an ambitious goal and knowing that you will reach it that is just so
00:20:43.806 Speaker 1 intoxicating. It has a motivation of its own. Um, and it, I think is an important
00:20:49.246 Speaker 1 part of any plan. You can't simply do it. You can't just sit down and go, "I could
00:20:53.466 Speaker 1 have sat down and said, 'Eh, I'm gonna make some audio stories. That sounds like
00:20:56.606 Speaker 1 fun.'" Now, it's okay to start there to see if you're excited about it, right?
00:21:00.426 Speaker 1 That's actually the best place to start. Don't start by saying, "I'm gonna conquer
00:21:03.246 Speaker 1 the world with my audio stories. I'm gonna take over the whole market. I'm gonna put
00:21:06.766 Speaker 1 Audible out of business," right? You can't start with that. That's insanity. But you
00:21:10.766 Speaker 1 can start with, "Do I like this?" And then once you realize you like it, and once
00:21:14.446 Speaker 1 you realize this is a thing, I could do something with this, that's when you set
00:21:19.186 Speaker 1 your big, ambitious goal, right? And that, that's the right time to do it, and
00:21:23.926 Speaker 1 that's where I'm at. I have big, ambitious goals. I've made them very clear, and
00:21:28.446 Speaker 1 they are incredibly motivating.
00:21:31.386 Speaker 6 And you've told other people about them.
00:21:33.366 Speaker 1 Yeah. So that's essential. I have always wavered on should you tell people your
00:21:38.286 Speaker 1 goals or not, and this is a common, common mis-- uh, I guess a contentious topic.
00:21:45.006 Speaker 1 It depends. For me, action is so important.
00:21:51.246 Speaker 1 It is much more important for people to see me doing things and getting results than
00:21:56.906 Speaker 1 it is for me to tell them. And I get this gross feeling like, "I'm gonna do this.
00:22:00.666 Speaker 1 I'm gonna be great," because it just feels like empty promises. So the reason I like
00:22:06.206 Speaker 1 to not tell people my goals is 'cause I want them to see what I'm doing and be
00:22:10.766 Speaker 1 shocked by it. Like, "What the heck is this guy up to?" Like, "How is he
00:22:13.926 Speaker 1 accomplishing all this," right? I want that. But at the same time, you need to tell
00:22:19.466 Speaker 1 people, uh, because otherwise they can't help you, but also because it reinforces
00:22:24.406 Speaker 1 your own identity. Uh, once you've made that part of your identity, like, you
00:22:30.206 Speaker 1 can't not do it. Like, it is as if it has almost happened. And once you get to that
00:22:35.686 Speaker 1 level of self-confidence, you know that you can say something, and you will either
00:22:39.946 Speaker 1 make it real or break in the process. Um, and then that's when your promises really
00:22:44.626 Speaker 1 have power over you, is when you know that, okay, I said I was gonna do it. I have a
00:22:50.226 Speaker 1 at least reasonable path to get there. I'm either gonna do it, or it's not possible.
00:22:56.146 Speaker 5 Sorry for the wait. It's a chore just to get up at my age.
00:23:00.486 Speaker 2 He turned and walked back into his office, leaving the door open for Ethan to follow
00:23:04.746 Speaker 2 him.
00:23:05.406 Speaker 5 I don't suppose you have that problem, do you?
00:23:08.326 Speaker 2 Negative. Ethan winced at his own words.
00:23:13.306 Speaker 2 I mean, no, sir. Archbishop Gabriel Klein collapsed into his large office chair
00:23:19.246 Speaker 2 behind his desk and gave Ethan an undisguised look of exhaustion.
00:23:24.206 Speaker 5 Do you sleep?
00:23:25.746 Speaker 2 Ethan moved into the room, ignoring the fourteen yellow warning marks that flashed
00:23:30.006 Speaker 2 around the room on his HUD, warning him of potential dangers like hidden weapons or
00:23:34.826 Speaker 2 secret entrances, never mind that this was the office of his commander.
00:23:40.006 Speaker 5 Sometimes. Not like I used to.
00:23:43.186 Speaker 2 The Archbishop motioned for him to have a seat. Ethan didn't know how to tell the
00:23:47.206 Speaker 2 man that he didn't need to, that his titanium joints experienced no strain from
00:23:52.246 Speaker 2 standing. That, and even if he did feel discomfort, he could simply turn it off.
00:23:57.786 Speaker 5 Please, sit.
00:23:59.946 Speaker 2 Yes, sir. Ethan sat down without even considering it. That unnerved him. Had he
00:24:05.626 Speaker 2 chosen to sit? More importantly, could he have chosen not to?
00:24:13.506 Speaker 6 You're a member of a few accountability groups.
00:24:16.026 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:24:17.306 Speaker 6 Why, and what are they, and what do they do for you?
00:24:21.826 Speaker 1 So the foreword to that is
00:24:24.774 Speaker 1 If I look like I have it all figured out, that is an illusion. It is an illusion
00:24:30.954 Speaker 1 that anybody has it figured out, right? The metaphor is that it's a puzzle that can
00:24:36.134 Speaker 1 never be solved. Nobody can have all the pieces. It's not possible. What I mean
00:24:40.334 Speaker 1 figured out, I mean have it all, like no doubt as to what they're doing. No doubt
00:24:44.974 Speaker 1 fundamental, even the thing I just told you about the promise that I'm like, "I'm
00:24:48.754 Speaker 1 gonna hit this huge ambitious goal." Of course I have doubt about that. Of course I
00:24:52.654 Speaker 1 have doubt about every single thing I'm doing. Now, to varying degrees.
00:24:57.614 Speaker 1 Nobody has it all figured out. So that's the, the preamble to this. Uh, the second
00:25:02.834 Speaker 1 part is that I have a long, long series of starting
00:25:09.214 Speaker 1 and giving up on projects.
00:25:10.954 Speaker 6 Oh, really?
00:25:11.714 Speaker 1 For the past, ooh, ooh,
00:25:15.374 Speaker 1 forever. For the past forever. Uh, so it's the same pattern over and over
00:25:21.254 Speaker 1 again. Every few months, new fascination, way into this, start to get self-doubt,
00:25:26.654 Speaker 1 right? Crash and burn. It's just slow, slow anxiety creeping in. Can I do this?
00:25:32.634 Speaker 1 Is this gonna work? Do I really want to do this? That's the real kicker. Do I want
00:25:36.634 Speaker 1 to do this anymore, right? It always erodes it, and I move on to the next thing.
00:25:42.094 Speaker 1 This time is different, and the reason this time is different is that for the first
00:25:47.494 Speaker 1 time in my life, I'm not going it alone on something very important to me, and that
00:25:53.294 Speaker 1 has made all the difference. So I am in accountability groups. I'm in an
00:25:58.794 Speaker 1 accountability group-
00:26:01.014 Speaker 6 With me
00:26:01.254 Speaker 1 ... I'm in... For creatives, yeah, I'm in your accountability group.
00:26:03.934 Speaker 6 We're in a couple cre- accountability groups.
00:26:04.954 Speaker 1 I'm in an account- a goal-setting and accountability group on a weekly basis. I am
00:26:09.414 Speaker 1 in a business accountability group. I have a creativity coach. I have a productivity
00:26:13.734 Speaker 1 coach. I have a health and wellness doctor expert, right? I, I have a psychiatrist.
00:26:19.674 Speaker 1 I have surrounded myself with so many people that I cannot possibly
00:26:25.614 Speaker 1 fail. In fact, I actually promised myself yesterday I would remove the F-word from
00:26:30.374 Speaker 1 my, uh, vocabulary, uh, because it's not useful to me anymore. Uh, so I'm going to,
00:26:36.454 Speaker 1 I'm gonna stop using it from this point forward.
00:26:40.654 Speaker 6 You and I are so much alike.
00:26:42.174 Speaker 1 [laughs] I cannot stop now, and that has made all the difference. And it sounds so
00:26:48.094 Speaker 1 crazy, but I have always had this feeling that if I didn't do it myself, it didn't
00:26:53.034 Speaker 1 count.
00:26:54.194 Speaker 6 Right.
00:26:54.294 Speaker 1 Which is absurd. It was a complete misconception. First of all, nobody
00:27:00.214 Speaker 1 ever does anything alone.
00:27:01.234 Speaker 6 Well, first of all, you are doing it all yourself.
00:27:04.234 Speaker 1 I'm doing the important parts, right? I'm-
00:27:06.414 Speaker 6 What you're getting help with is the m- is the mental stuff. There are things that I
00:27:11.434 Speaker 6 start and don't finish as well. Uh, uh, more than I care to-
00:27:16.514 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm
00:27:16.874 Speaker 6 ... admit. And I think, I wonder if there's a connection between that and not
00:27:22.154 Speaker 6 wanting, not going back and watching TV shows again. Because once you get
00:27:27.954 Speaker 6 into the grind, it's like, "Okay, I've done this before. It's not new." Even though
00:27:32.574 Speaker 6 you, you might have a plan, a long-term plan, when you get down to the daily,
00:27:38.774 Speaker 6 it's like sometimes it's often the same thing over and over. And I wonder if that's
00:27:44.714 Speaker 6 connected.
00:27:46.054 Speaker 1 So I've done a lot of soul searching on this, obviously. This moment happened to me,
00:27:50.914 Speaker 1 um, really early on in this process for this goal, right? Why is this time
00:27:56.054 Speaker 1 different? I had to ask myself that. I have stopped dozens of times
00:28:01.994 Speaker 1 on projects of this size. Why is this one different? And I just had this moment
00:28:06.754 Speaker 1 where I'm like, "I have the same pattern over and over and over again." Um, so part
00:28:12.574 Speaker 1 of it is ADHD, right? That's absolutely a part of it, and that's really just the
00:28:17.094 Speaker 1 same thing as normal human problems with a couple of the dials turned up, right? To
00:28:21.534 Speaker 1 varying degrees. One of those is novelty seeking. That is the desire, again, part of
00:28:27.334 Speaker 1 why I'm motivated by curiosity, is the desire for novelty, to see new things, to
00:28:32.394 Speaker 1 see, think you understand something, but instead get back a different result. The
00:28:37.354 Speaker 1 unexpected, right? Seeking that out, new experiences, more stimulation. So to some
00:28:42.994 Speaker 1 extent, once I've gotten to a point where I feel like I kinda get it, it makes sense
00:28:47.174 Speaker 1 that motivation would start to waver, and something else would start to look more
00:28:50.954 Speaker 1 interesting. It's always replaced by another project. So to some extent, it was
00:28:54.954 Speaker 1 that. Some of it is when you're by yourself, it is an echo chamber of your own
00:28:59.654 Speaker 1 thoughts and doubts. All you have coming back to you at some point is your own
00:29:04.014 Speaker 1 anxiety, bouncing off the walls over and over and over again until that's all you
00:29:07.714 Speaker 1 can hear. It doesn't matter how much you wanna do it anymore because you're just
00:29:11.914 Speaker 1 crushed by your own doubt. There's nobody to step in and say something, even if you
00:29:16.794 Speaker 1 know it to be true. This isn't about logic. It's about emotions. Even if you feel
00:29:22.254 Speaker 1 logically you know that this is possible, this thing you're trying to do,
00:29:27.094 Speaker 1 but by then it's too late. You just need somebody you care about who is at least a
00:29:31.414 Speaker 1 little bit invested in your work to say, "Oh, I think you can do this.
00:29:37.654 Speaker 1 Oh, well why don't you try this instead? Oh, I'm sorry you're feeling that way."
00:29:40.834 Speaker 1 Even just to be heard is often enough. Even just to speak to another person who you
00:29:46.794 Speaker 1 know sincerely wants the best for you, who actually wants you to succeed. Even that
00:29:51.694 Speaker 1 is enough. So I'll never go it alone again. It's the biggest change I've made, and
00:29:56.414 Speaker 1 it has been a monumental change. So I'm at eight months now, so significantly past
00:30:00.994 Speaker 1 my usual [laughs] breaking point. Um,
00:30:05.494 Speaker 1 and I am, if anything, more motivated than ever. So yesterday I had a meeting with,
00:30:10.474 Speaker 1 uh, two literary agents, right? So part of my growth strategy is to pull on
00:30:13.954 Speaker 1 established authors, borrow their audience, and get them onto my subscriber
00:30:17.674 Speaker 1 platform, right? It's not gonna work. Flat out, right? That talking to those two
00:30:24.114 Speaker 1 very incredible people, very knowledgeable. If anybody would know whether that would
00:30:27.794 Speaker 1 work or not, it's these people. They were rock stars, right? It's not gonna work.
00:30:32.006 Speaker 1 Now, they did validate my core premise, selling audio stories, immersive audio
00:30:36.306 Speaker 1 stories to people on a subscription does look like it has potential, right? Now,
00:30:40.426 Speaker 1 whether I can execute on that is totally separate, but the core thesis is intact.
00:30:44.206 Speaker 1 The growth strategy I had is not gonna work. It's just not gonna work for a lot of
00:30:48.386 Speaker 1 reasons I won't go into. It hurt. That was the kind of event which would have
00:30:54.046 Speaker 1 crippled me in the past. That's the beginning of a downward spiral. But I have
00:30:58.126 Speaker 1 surrounded-
00:30:58.146 Speaker 6 Why did it hurt?
00:30:59.206 Speaker 1 Hmm?
00:30:59.766 Speaker 6 Why did it hurt?
00:31:01.566 Speaker 1 It hurt because I had a theory about how the world worked, and I had a path that
00:31:06.686 Speaker 1 would get me there, that I had invested a lot of time and emotion into, that I had a
00:31:10.906 Speaker 1 lot of m- mental momentum and emotional momentum, like, "This is where I'm going,"
00:31:14.926 Speaker 1 right? You tell yourself, "This is where I'm going," every day when you wake up, and
00:31:18.826 Speaker 1 you're excited about it, and then somebody who you absolutely should believe tells
00:31:23.966 Speaker 1 you it's not going to work for a lot of very good reasons that actually make sense
00:31:27.246 Speaker 1 to you.
00:31:29.106 Speaker 1 You should take... The, the sane thing to do is to tear it down, right? Some
00:31:33.806 Speaker 1 progress is destructive. I told my productivity coach this yesterday. Again,
00:31:38.126 Speaker 1 surround yourself with people. Don't go alone. I told my productivity coach this
00:31:42.326 Speaker 1 yesterday, some progress is destructive. And while I know that, the... it would have
00:31:46.366 Speaker 1 been completely foolish to keep going down this path because it is not going to
00:31:50.786 Speaker 1 work. Even if it did, it would work so little for the amount of effort invested, it
00:31:55.706 Speaker 1 doesn't make sense. What makes sense is to take all the pieces, build a new plan,
00:32:01.126 Speaker 1 get a v- get invested in that new plan, and try again. You know, that one might work
00:32:06.506 Speaker 1 a little bit, it might work a lot, it might work not at all, and I have to tear it
00:32:10.706 Speaker 1 down and make a new one.
00:32:13.286 Speaker 1 That hurts, but it's not going to stop me, and that was not true until
00:32:19.626 Speaker 1 32 years old. So... And the difference is I have surrounded myself with
00:32:25.606 Speaker 1 people who care whether it works to some extent or another, and I can't let them
00:32:31.046 Speaker 1 down. Uh, and they, all they do is they just step in and they just tell me one
00:32:36.306 Speaker 1 simple truth that I already know is true. I know I, I could do this if I were a
00:32:42.146 Speaker 1 robot that I could program. Robot Steve would have no problem following the new
00:32:47.026 Speaker 1 path, right? No emotions invested in it at all. But I'm not that person, and even
00:32:52.146 Speaker 1 hearing the truth come from a neutral party, that's enough. Totally dispels the
00:32:56.266 Speaker 1 anxiety. Like, "Okay, onto the next thing. No big deal."
00:33:00.106 Speaker 6 Awesome.
00:33:01.466 Speaker 1 Yep.
00:33:01.786 Speaker 6 Awesome. Well, just to be clear, you're not talking about scrapping the
00:33:07.606 Speaker 6 idea. You're talking about-
00:33:10.126 Speaker 1 No
00:33:10.126 Speaker 6 ... keeping the idea and just changing your plan.
00:33:13.266 Speaker 1 Exactly. This is all about my growth strategy. How do you go from, you know,
00:33:18.486 Speaker 1 whatever, a couple hundred, uh, unpaying listeners to a couple thousand
00:33:24.586 Speaker 1 paying listeners to a couple hundred thousand paying listeners to a couple million
00:33:28.586 Speaker 1 paying listeners, right? That strategy, my initial foray, the, the shot I took,
00:33:34.986 Speaker 1 it missed. Like, oh, okay. [laughs] So the right thing to do is to take a different
00:33:40.766 Speaker 1 position and take another shot, uh, which is what I'm going to do. Um, so no, the
00:33:46.006 Speaker 1 core premise is exactly the same. What I'm building, the goal is the same. The goal
00:33:49.926 Speaker 1 hasn't even changed, but the route to the goal has fundamentally changed, and that's
00:33:54.626 Speaker 1 okay. It hurts a little to have that broken down and to have to start over again
00:33:58.486 Speaker 1 with a new plan,
00:34:00.746 Speaker 1 but that's just how it is. That is this business.
00:34:02.706 Speaker 6 What does that say about your mindset?
00:34:04.126 Speaker 1 [laughs] That I've grown a lot. [laughs]
00:34:08.686 Speaker 6 Yeah?
00:34:09.306 Speaker 1 That the fact that something doesn't work is not a reflection of me. It's got
00:34:14.306 Speaker 1 nothing to do with me. To the extent that I have succeeded more is the more I am
00:34:20.006 Speaker 1 a... is the amount, relative to the amount I have pulled my ego out of what I'm
00:34:24.786 Speaker 1 doing. What I'm doing is not mine. It's just the way the world
00:34:30.586 Speaker 1 works. It's a combination of e- economics and human psychology and
00:34:36.166 Speaker 1 fundamental rules of the universe whether a business idea will work or not. You
00:34:39.906 Speaker 1 could swap me out with another person trying to do the same thing, and it should
00:34:43.146 Speaker 1 work, right? It's not mine. It's not me. Now, I have my own approach. I'm my own
00:34:48.665 Speaker 1 person who brings my own skill set, right? All of that changes it, for sure. But
00:34:53.326 Speaker 1 there's nothing special about me that makes this work. I am just... This is a, this
00:34:57.566 Speaker 1 is just a dig. I'm just trying to find something that is true and utilize it. Uh, it
00:35:03.026 Speaker 1 has nothing to do with me as a person. It's not a reflection of me if it doesn't
00:35:06.046 Speaker 1 work. It may be a reflection of my skill set, where I am, whether I can make it work
00:35:11.226 Speaker 1 or not, but it's not a reflection of me as a person, and I don't judge myself for it
00:35:16.306 Speaker 1 anymore, and that has helped a lot.
00:35:22.366 Speaker 6 Well, you seem to be learning a lot.
00:35:24.426 Speaker 1 [laughs] Yeah. Always better, right?
00:35:26.666 Speaker 6 Yeah, right.
00:35:27.866 Speaker 1 I was thinking about this when you asked earlier.
00:35:31.746 Speaker 1 I've been at this for a long time now, making stories, producing them into audio
00:35:36.426 Speaker 1 stories, and the way I got better was by,
00:35:43.046 Speaker 1 I don't wanna say not caring about the quality, but caring about the velocity and
00:35:46.866 Speaker 1 not the position. To get into a physics term, the position is totally irrelevant
00:35:52.346 Speaker 1 except for the fact that I need it to be at a certain position to be, to reach my
00:35:56.026 Speaker 1 goals, right? That's the only reason I care.
00:35:58.326 Speaker 6 Sure.
00:35:58.766 Speaker 1 When I say position, I mean a quantitative measure of skill. Can I produce the thing
00:36:04.266 Speaker 1 I need to produce in whatever skill? I have focused only on quantity
00:36:09.946 Speaker 1 produced. How much can I make, and am I improving? I
00:36:15.906 Speaker 1 don't care how bad I am. I do not care how bad I am at all. Am I improving? And I
00:36:21.566 Speaker 1 fixated on that, and that made all the difference. I stopped caring whether it was
00:36:26.806 Speaker 1 bad right now, and I cared only about is it getting better, am I making enough?
00:36:32.606 Speaker 6 So you dropped your perfectionism in order to reach new heights
00:36:38.606 Speaker 6 as far as skill?
00:36:40.578 Speaker 1 Yes, but perfectionism even is too simple because it, perfectionism implies that I
00:36:44.978 Speaker 1 think it could be perfect if I spend enough time on it. I don't even believe that
00:36:48.118 Speaker 1 anymore. I believe I have a, I have a fixed ceiling on what I can produce with my
00:36:52.978 Speaker 1 current skill level. Now, the skill level can increase, which means the ceiling can
00:36:57.018 Speaker 1 go up, but it does not make sense to try and push the ceiling higher from where I
00:37:02.578 Speaker 1 am. I need to practice to raise the ceiling. It doesn't make sense to just
00:37:08.598 Speaker 1 work, bash myself against this project over and over and over again because that is
00:37:13.158 Speaker 1 not going to improve me. What I need to do is get it out into the world, learn from
00:37:19.098 Speaker 1 it, get feedback, whether that's my own feedback or somebody else's, learn from it,
00:37:23.758 Speaker 1 and take that into the next project, and then make that one better. Because now my
00:37:27.458 Speaker 1 ceiling is higher, what is the point of spending 10 times longer on this thing when
00:37:31.278 Speaker 1 I'm hitting against the same ceiling, when I could just raise the ceiling? So I have
00:37:34.698 Speaker 1 fixated on raising the ceiling of what I can produce rather than trying to make it
00:37:39.678 Speaker 1 the best it can possibly be. Because I have seen more gains faster,
00:37:44.978 Speaker 1 paradoxically, by caring about the quality of the work. Like, I am trying to push
00:37:49.618 Speaker 1 myself, but the moment I feel like I start hitting that skill ceiling, I'm getting
00:37:53.338 Speaker 1 diminishing returns. Like, yeah, okay, I could spend 10 more hours on this sound
00:37:56.678 Speaker 1 effect to get it perfect, but am I going to learn from that? Or will I learn from
00:38:01.358 Speaker 1 making 100 more sound effects like it in that amount of time? The answer is
00:38:05.278 Speaker 1 obviously the second one, and I have grown so much faster because of it.
00:38:11.238 Speaker 6 So what you're interested in is seeing a progress growth as far as skills. You're
00:38:17.278 Speaker 6 comparing yourself, your current self, against your skill level last week or last
00:38:21.918 Speaker 6 month, and as long as the graph is up, then-
00:38:24.998 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm
00:38:25.298 Speaker 6 ... that's your goal.
00:38:26.938 Speaker 1 Yeah. I fundamentally value myself as a human being for whether I am on the path.
00:38:32.998 Speaker 1 It's a concept I came up with, like, I don't know how many years ago, seven or eight
00:38:36.138 Speaker 1 years ago in a journal. The path being a line that moves up and to the right. If I
00:38:41.598 Speaker 1 am improving as a person, and you kinda know whether you're improving or not,
00:38:46.578 Speaker 1 whether you've gone horizontal or down, you know pretty quickly whether you feel
00:38:51.118 Speaker 1 like you've ha- made progress lately. If I am making progress, I am satisfied with
00:38:56.078 Speaker 1 myself as a person. Now, I try to crank the knobs on that progress to try and
00:38:59.858 Speaker 1 improve as much as possible, but I don't value myself for how fast that goes. I
00:39:05.338 Speaker 1 value myself for am I sincerely trying to improve myself? If yes, and I am growing
00:39:10.578 Speaker 1 as a person in some way, we're good. That's all I ask of myself in life. Am I
00:39:16.558 Speaker 1 improving? Even a little bit, even a tiny, tiny, tiny bit, it counts. I call that
00:39:22.358 Speaker 1 being on the path. You're either off the path or on the path, and when you decide,
00:39:26.818 Speaker 1 when you realize you're off the path, all you have to do is say, "Okay, I'm back on
00:39:30.738 Speaker 1 the path now. I'm gonna go improve myself again." Because sometimes you don't want
00:39:34.478 Speaker 1 to improve because it hurts.
00:39:36.938 Speaker 6 That's cool. Um, I call it forward movement. It helps me sometimes to create a
00:39:41.918 Speaker 6 phrase like that. Forward movement is, I call it that because it's meaningful for
00:39:46.818 Speaker 6 me.
00:39:47.078 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:39:47.098 Speaker 6 But if it's not meaningful for somebody else, then they can find their own phrase-
00:39:51.378 Speaker 1 Yeah, sure, make your own thing
00:39:52.158 Speaker 6 ... and make it, yeah
00:39:52.458 Speaker 1 But that's like the ultimate gut check. When everything is crazy, everything is
00:39:56.318 Speaker 1 going wrong, nothing seems to be going my way, am I on the path?
00:40:00.798 Speaker 6 Yeah.
00:40:00.898 Speaker 1 Yes or no. It's binary. If yes, I'm doing the right thing. It literally does not
00:40:05.438 Speaker 1 matter what I'm doing or whether it works or not because I'm doing the right thing.
00:40:09.558 Speaker 1 If no, that's the only way I could be doing the wrong thing. I could be making a
00:40:13.238 Speaker 1 billion dollars a year and not being improving myself, and I'm doing the wrong
00:40:17.118 Speaker 1 thing. That's how I feel.
00:40:17.878 Speaker 6 And you don't mean in a narcissistic way. You mean in a healthy way.
00:40:22.538 Speaker 1 Yes, absolutely, but because to improve myself in a narcissistic way would not be
00:40:26.898 Speaker 1 improvement. So it would be, because that's not what I value. That's not who I want
00:40:32.098 Speaker 1 to be, and I would not consider that improvement. I would consider that an illusion,
00:40:36.598 Speaker 1 and that would be false, and I would not be improving.
00:40:48.078 Speaker 3 You, you, you let it out?
00:40:50.438 Speaker 2 He only has access to 30% of the designed weapon systems.
00:40:54.858 Speaker 3 It's an abomination. Who knows what the Japanese hid in that tech?
00:41:00.357 Speaker 2 Gabriel ignored both lines of argument. This wasn't about public safety or blasphemy
00:41:06.038 Speaker 2 or espionage. What would the now deceased Japanese research team hide anyway?
00:41:11.218 Speaker 2 Professor Saitama had been honorable and faithful to their shared cause until the
00:41:15.538 Speaker 2 very end. Gabriel felt that it was sometimes better to let a friend stab you in the
00:41:20.598 Speaker 2 back, to fully trust some people, and simply hope for the best. Lucius
00:41:26.538 Speaker 2 was not one of those people.
00:41:33.038 Speaker 6 You're talking about improving your skills. What specific skills are you talking
00:41:38.058 Speaker 6 about for Collected Stories?
00:41:40.858 Speaker 1 So I have them listed. Um, I'm maniacal about this. Uh, I have become that. I don't
00:41:46.958 Speaker 1 start this way. I feel like I really need to hone in on that point. I did not start
00:41:51.578 Speaker 1 this way. I decided to become this way, and it didn't happen overnight. It happened
00:41:57.578 Speaker 1 in fits and spurts, and it was slow and winding. That's how I got here. I have a
00:42:03.498 Speaker 1 list of the skills I want to master and to what level I want to get to them in. I
00:42:07.938 Speaker 1 have a list of the things I need to get good at and then immediately get rid of
00:42:11.258 Speaker 1 because I don't want to be good at them. I have an order in which I want to get rid
00:42:14.878 Speaker 1 of the skills. So in short, they are narration. I need to get roughly to an 8 out of
00:42:19.778 Speaker 1 10, a 10 being world-class. Uh, so an 8 is very-
00:42:22.838 Speaker 6 You mean your performance?
00:42:24.278 Speaker 1 Yes. So 8 being very good because that is what I need to beli- that is what I
00:42:29.018 Speaker 1 believe I need to be at to convincingly sell stories, right? That doesn't mean I'm
00:42:32.978 Speaker 1 always gonna be the narrator. That is good enough to me. Writing, roughly 8 or 9 out
00:42:37.598 Speaker 1 of 10. You see a common trend here. Sound design, because that's right at the point
00:42:41.538 Speaker 1 of diminishing returns. The difference between an 8 and a 10, most people will never
00:42:46.738 Speaker 1 notice. Only the, the biggest-
00:42:50.708 Speaker 1 Only the people who truly understand the craft will know the difference at that
00:42:53.868 Speaker 1 level. It's such fine-grained details. You can hit the high notes. You, you're gonna
00:42:57.388 Speaker 1 get 90% of the results. Yes, the best in the world will be able to outdo you, and
00:43:02.008 Speaker 1 yes, some people will notice on a subconscious level what is truly master class and
00:43:05.888 Speaker 1 what isn't.
00:43:07.828 Speaker 1 But you just need to get to a point where you can sell. I say you, as in me, because
00:43:12.008 Speaker 1 this is... It all comes back to where my goals come from. I know what I need to do,
00:43:16.248 Speaker 1 and from that, all other choices become clear. Now that I know what I need to do,
00:43:21.508 Speaker 1 what skills do I need to get there? I literally wrote them all out. Okay, now which
00:43:25.388 Speaker 1 ones do I actually want to be good at? And so I very quickly crossed out the ones I
00:43:29.708 Speaker 1 didn't wanna do. I don't wanna be an actor. I don't wanna be an actor. It doesn't
00:43:32.468 Speaker 1 motivate me. I don't care about that. And ultimately, I don't wanna be the editor. I
00:43:36.528 Speaker 1 don't wanna do the mixing. Uh, there's a lot of things I don't wanna be great at,
00:43:39.668 Speaker 1 but there are things I do want to be great at, even if I do eventually outsource
00:43:43.228 Speaker 1 them. And primarily because I love it, and because I love it, I know I will be great
00:43:48.108 Speaker 1 at it if I continue to put in the time.
00:43:49.948 Speaker 6 What are those things that you wanna be great at?
00:43:51.948 Speaker 1 Uh, sound design, narration, writing.
00:43:56.868 Speaker 1 There are some that I want to be good at, and there's a lot of those.
00:43:59.988 Speaker 6 What are some things you wanna be good at?
00:44:02.908 Speaker 1 Mixing, editing, directing.
00:44:07.508 Speaker 1 Um, I need to be slightly better at drawing. I need to be good enough at music
00:44:13.508 Speaker 1 composing, uh, and production in order to be able to guide the people under me, and
00:44:17.708 Speaker 1 to be able to talk what they talk, uh, in an intelligent way to get the best out of
00:44:22.428 Speaker 1 them. So those are all... I need to be able to do everything on the team, for the
00:44:25.948 Speaker 1 most part, uh, to at least an adequate degree. But the three things I'm going to be
00:44:30.948 Speaker 1 great at are narration, writing, sound design. Now, narration of those three is the
00:44:36.508 Speaker 1 one I care the least about. And that may sound bizarre, but I, I believe that the
00:44:41.288 Speaker 1 writing is the most important. If that foundation is not good, nothing else matters.
00:44:45.308 Speaker 1 Fantas- fantastic sound design and acting on top of crappy writing, literally nobody
00:44:49.428 Speaker 1 gonna care, right? Sound design is right after that. It's so important to the
00:44:54.468 Speaker 1 immersion of the story. Narration, as long as I am convincing, I care
00:45:00.088 Speaker 1 less about the perfectionism there. It just has to be good enough that you don't
00:45:04.688 Speaker 1 notice me. I want to fall into the background to the point where the narrator
00:45:09.328 Speaker 1 becomes
00:45:11.648 Speaker 1 immersive, essentially, to the point where I'm just telling you what is happening
00:45:15.888 Speaker 1 and you don't hear my voice anymore. You just see the story that is unfolding in
00:45:19.768 Speaker 1 your imagination. That's the point I need to get to. I don't need to get to the
00:45:23.448 Speaker 1 point where you're like, "Wow, this guy's a great narrator." I don't care about
00:45:27.208 Speaker 1 that. I just need to get to the point where I fall away. You don't notice what I'm
00:45:31.848 Speaker 1 saying anymore. Like, "Eh, that sounded weird," or, "That sounded stupid," or, "That
00:45:35.108 Speaker 1 was bad acting." Once I get past that point, it's good enough, right? The writing
00:45:40.368 Speaker 1 and sound design needs to be a little bit higher.
00:45:43.328 Speaker 6 Well, the stories are really great, and you a- actually, you have rules for your
00:45:49.288 Speaker 6 stories, right?
00:45:50.008 Speaker 1 I do.
00:45:50.148 Speaker 6 Even though they're, they're multi-part stories, right? They're like four, five, or
00:45:55.448 Speaker 6 six, or 12 parts, but that's it. And then there's another story, and then there's
00:46:01.148 Speaker 6 another story.
00:46:02.208 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:46:02.928 Speaker 6 But, but you said you wrote down rules for your world-
00:46:06.748 Speaker 1 Yeah, and-
00:46:07.548 Speaker 6 ... that all of the stories have to, uh, live by.
00:46:11.328 Speaker 1 Yes, I do have rules. So I have a theory as to what makes a satisfying story in this
00:46:17.148 Speaker 1 format, and this is why I'm... One of the reasons I'm so excited beyond just the
00:46:22.028 Speaker 1 format. Okay, so it's immersive audio story. It's cool. Yeah, whatever, right?
00:46:25.368 Speaker 1 Anyone can do it, right? There's not that much bar of a competition. Anyone can
00:46:28.788 Speaker 1 learn how to do the sound design and the voice acting and all that, and the
00:46:31.668 Speaker 1 directing. They can put it together, right? This isn't rocket science. People can
00:46:35.068 Speaker 1 figure this out, and they have figured out in the past. So what makes me special
00:46:38.688 Speaker 1 then, right? What do I have over Graphic Audio or any of these Audible originals or
00:46:42.688 Speaker 1 audio dramas that are coming out? And I think that there are layers on top of this
00:46:47.828 Speaker 1 that in time are going to make the difference. At first, I need to make the core
00:46:52.868 Speaker 1 product good, right? The stories. Beyond that, I have a, a set of codified rules
00:46:58.868 Speaker 1 for what I think every story I make and every story that I involve other people in,
00:47:03.908 Speaker 1 these are the rules they need to play by. I have a very strict rule book as to what
00:47:08.048 Speaker 1 makes a good story in this format, because this format is more than just immersive
00:47:11.527 Speaker 1 audio. It has a set of rules too. So some of them are things like, just to make it
00:47:15.548 Speaker 1 concrete, have characters that are flawed but not stupid, are self-aware and
00:47:20.108 Speaker 1 motivated enough to not frustrate the reader. And that sounds simple, but how many
00:47:24.368 Speaker 1 books and how many times have you been frustrated by a character that has an own
00:47:27.508 Speaker 1 goal, right? It's a typical romance plot where they both misunderstand something,
00:47:32.068 Speaker 1 and then they go off, and it's totally contrived. You know, like, this is so stupid.
00:47:35.408 Speaker 1 If they would literally have a one-minute conversation, they could resolve this in a
00:47:38.508 Speaker 1 second. Nah, I'm not doing that. If they have pro- Now, that doesn't mean that two
00:47:42.648 Speaker 1 people can't come to, in conflict with each other. They will. But if they do, it's
00:47:46.448 Speaker 1 for reasons that make sense to you. In fact, that is because the next rule is most
00:47:50.948 Speaker 1 conflict comes from hard choices, opposing but plausible worldviews or
00:47:56.728 Speaker 1 forces of nature, not own goals or deus ex machina. All right, so it's these kinds
00:48:01.628 Speaker 1 of rules, and I've got a lot of them. Um-
00:48:04.048 Speaker 6 Did you make them up yourself or...?
00:48:06.288 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, but the, everything is derived from something else. But yes. Uh, but
00:48:10.308 Speaker 1 yes, these are rules that I, I have codified, and every story I write will follow
00:48:14.828 Speaker 1 these rules to the T.
00:48:16.328 Speaker 6 Why? Why do you have rules that all your stories have to adhere to?
00:48:21.408 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's what it is, and it's... This kind of structure seems imposing. Like,
00:48:26.548 Speaker 1 okay, great, so anyone I ask has to follow all this huge list of rules? Like, that's
00:48:30.488 Speaker 1 kind of ridiculous. But I have learned more and more that the structure sets you
00:48:34.828 Speaker 1 free. Because the very last rule is, and everything else is pure potential.
00:48:40.608 Speaker 1 Because human beings, the way our brains work, we do horrible in a vacuum.
00:48:47.688 Speaker 1 Limitless possibility is the worst possible thing you could do to creativity. It
00:48:51.720 Speaker 1 sounds insane to say that, but the moment you start adding structure, if you give
00:48:56.480 Speaker 1 somebody a blank canvas and like a marker and you say, make something wonderful,
00:49:00.320 Speaker 1 they're going to be like, I don't know what to do. But if they're like, you have to
00:49:04.140 Speaker 1 do this, this, this, and this, you can only use these colors. You can only use these
00:49:07.120 Speaker 1 shapes. Now watch them go and they'll just go right into the task. It's crazy. Too
00:49:12.500 Speaker 1 much ambiguity is bad. So all of these rules pin you in. Now they pin you in in such
00:49:17.740 Speaker 1 a way that anything inside these bounds, inside these boundaries is going to be a
00:49:21.700 Speaker 1 good story, right? And there's so much space left here for potential. It doesn't
00:49:26.560 Speaker 1 even matter. There's infinite stories still within this space to get mathematical.
00:49:31.860 Speaker 6 Well, there are only eight notes on the piano.
00:49:35.060 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. Yeah, you're right. That's a great point. Exactly like that. The structure
00:49:40.480 Speaker 1 sets you free. So I'm pinning you into a specific kind of structure.
00:49:46.080 Speaker 1 And I think that something else that I'm excited about is how can I make that even
00:49:49.860 Speaker 1 cooler? How can I make this not like a top-down thing where I'm hitting people over
00:49:53.440 Speaker 1 the head with, oh, you forgot rule number seven here?
00:49:58.140 Speaker 1 And the way I did that is that part of my story world, my story world, which is
00:50:03.780 Speaker 1 going to be our story world, is a community-driven multiverse, which I've called the
00:50:08.460 Speaker 1 Eternium. And this is a very fancy way of saying that if you make a story on our
00:50:12.960 Speaker 1 platform, it isn't just a story. It's a story world. And that world is an
00:50:18.800 Speaker 1 actual place in the canon. All of these stories are in the world. So as long as it
00:50:23.140 Speaker 1 meets these bars, as long as it passes all these rules in some editorial process,
00:50:27.440 Speaker 1 right? That's TBD. It's canon. Your story world lives next to mine.
00:50:33.900 Speaker 1 And while they have some method of interacting, and we won't get into that, because
00:50:38.820 Speaker 1 they follow all the rules, they fit into our world. Furthermore, there is like a
00:50:43.500 Speaker 1 pantheon of gods above all of this. And those are the creatures, the intelligent,
00:50:50.120 Speaker 1 sometimes malevolent forces that are enforcing all these rules. The reason that only
00:50:54.580 Speaker 1 these worlds can exist in this multiverse is because every single one of these rules
00:50:58.940 Speaker 1 is personified by some, you know, sometimes malevolent deity who wants this
00:51:04.860 Speaker 1 thing, right? There's the revealers, one of the main gods, like goddesses. She
00:51:10.840 Speaker 1 wants basically to reveal secrets. And that motivation causes you to have stories
00:51:17.440 Speaker 1 which feed the reader mysteries, but slowly unveil them, right? You don't have, and
00:51:22.100 Speaker 1 this is to prevent you from doing things like loose threads, loose plot lines,
00:51:26.560 Speaker 1 having no mystery, right? I'm just codifying what is already a common story
00:51:32.300 Speaker 1 trope. You hint at something weird, like you tease some readers with some mystery,
00:51:36.900 Speaker 1 and then later you pay them off, right? You pay back that debt. All I'm doing is
00:51:41.240 Speaker 1 taking that rule and I'm making even the rules themselves part of the story world.
00:51:46.720 Speaker 1 So, you know, that part's an experiment. We'll see if it works. But I feel like that
00:51:50.640 Speaker 1 turns something which would be annoying to anybody working with me into something,
00:51:54.940 Speaker 1 okay, cool. Now I can use this. Now these rules are actual characters and these
00:51:59.860 Speaker 1 characters come into conflict with each other. And I can use that in my story. That
00:52:05.300 Speaker 1 gets me excited.
00:52:08.000 Speaker 5 Good evening, Francesca.
00:52:12.520 Speaker 5 Something on my face?
00:52:15.060 Speaker 5 No, sir. I'm just about to sit down to dinner. Come on in.
00:52:20.300 Speaker 1 She hesitated at the doorway. Was that an invitation or a dismissal?
00:52:26.120 Speaker 5 Seriously, come in. It's okay to let your hair down.
00:52:29.940 Speaker 1 Fran moved to see if her hood was still up. Yes, it was. Should she let her hair
00:52:35.520 Speaker 1 down? Why was that important? The archbishop shook his head and smiled warmly at
00:52:41.240 Speaker 1 her. So she took that as an invitation and closed the door behind her. She stopped
00:52:46.420 Speaker 1 trying to read the man's expression and got right down to business, where she was
00:52:50.440 Speaker 1 most comfortable.
00:52:52.340 Speaker 5 I found another file in Saitama's data dump. You're gonna wanna see this.
00:52:57.240 Speaker 1 She walked over to where Gabriel sat at his desk and set her tablet down in front of
00:53:01.280 Speaker 1 him. Fran swiped through the blueprints, stopping on the artist's impression of the
00:53:07.120 Speaker 1 final product, which was incredibly dramatic. Gabriel stopped chewing, his eyes
00:53:13.180 Speaker 1 opened wide.
00:53:15.160 Speaker 5 How would we even build something like that? We can't. It's as tall as a building.
00:53:22.080 Speaker 5 It looks like it's straight out of an anime.
00:53:24.620 Speaker 1 Fran nodded enthusiastically. They had maybe 10% of the materials needed to
00:53:29.400 Speaker 1 construct it. Not that they would even try. It would be an egregious waste of
00:53:33.840 Speaker 1 resources. There was a reason tanks didn't have legs. It was simply impractical.
00:53:39.740 Speaker 1 Gabriel scratched his chin thoughtfully.
00:53:42.700 Speaker 5 Maybe we could make a smaller one.
00:53:48.100 Speaker 6 Tell me about Mortal Steel.
00:53:49.740 Speaker 1 So that is the show I'm currently airing, right? This is the first full season. So
00:53:53.920 Speaker 1 for seven-ish months, all I did was write, produce stories for the Monopause
00:53:59.520 Speaker 1 podcast feed. Like I said, I was obsessed with quantity and progress. That's all
00:54:05.100 Speaker 1 that was. So my theory there, I had a second goal. My theory was
00:54:10.900 Speaker 1 I am building a backlog of content. Like I'm building the first two episodes of long
00:54:16.520 Speaker 1 form stories so that when I launch this thing, I'm not just going, can I write a new
00:54:22.480 Speaker 1 story? Can I keep them excited? Like I have this huge catalog of potential, right?
00:54:27.420 Speaker 1 Now I'm going to have to rework all of them, right? They're not ready. Mortal Steel
00:54:31.200 Speaker 1 was just one of the 12 stories that I released. So I basically, when I was ready to
00:54:35.420 Speaker 1 launch the first season, I'm like, okay, I'll pick from these 12 stories. Which one
00:54:38.920 Speaker 1 of these has the most potential? Not even that. For the very first one, I said to
00:54:43.080 Speaker 1 myself, which one will teach me the most? Which one am I the most excited about?
00:54:48.460 Speaker 1 Forget what anyone else wants. What am I the most excited about? Because if I'm
00:54:51.860 Speaker 1 excited about it, it's going to come through in my work. If I don't care, even if
00:54:56.724 Speaker 1 it's the best story I think to launch with from a business perspective, or even for
00:55:00.164 Speaker 1 reader interest, I knew that if I loved it, it would be the best one.
00:55:06.284 Speaker 1 Uh, which is kind of counterintuitive. So Mortal Steel was that one. Uh, it's based
00:55:10.364 Speaker 1 on a short story I wrote a long time ago. It is a story, the tagline is, "Pastor
00:55:15.644 Speaker 1 Ethan Cutter, cyborg and ordained priest, has come to bring a little faith and
00:55:19.964 Speaker 1 justice to old Los Angeles. The ruins of old Los Angeles." And that's the tagline.
00:55:25.484 Speaker 1 So you kinda get it. It's been described as campy, and I don't pretend that it's the
00:55:29.924 Speaker 1 best thing ever. It's n- again, it's not about that. You already know what I value
00:55:33.104 Speaker 1 myself for. I value myself for making things as fast as possible and improving.
00:55:39.424 Speaker 3 It's not campy.
00:55:40.884 Speaker 1 Okay. [laughs]
00:55:41.464 Speaker 3 It's cool. Okay?
00:55:43.264 Speaker 1 It all depends on your perspective.
00:55:44.524 Speaker 3 Well, I mean, nothing is for everybody.
00:55:47.104 Speaker 1 Right. If you, if you think Die Hard is stupid, this is not for you. If you think
00:55:52.584 Speaker 1 Die Hard is awesome, this is for you, right? That's it. Like, I knew my audience,
00:55:57.364 Speaker 1 right? And that's what it is. If you think action movies are dumb, then this isn't
00:56:01.604 Speaker 1 for you. It's not just an action movie. I mean, it has real characters and real
00:56:05.064 Speaker 1 things are happening, and I treat it with... I give it both a head nod to I know
00:56:10.284 Speaker 1 this is dumb, but it's also cool. And, but also, like, hey, there's a real story
00:56:15.064 Speaker 1 here too. Uh, because, you know, you have to actually care about the characters. Um,
00:56:20.384 Speaker 1 so yeah, that's the story. Um, I, what I'm most excited about is not my story or
00:56:25.924 Speaker 1 what I wrote, it's the people who brought it to life. So there's a team of 10 voice
00:56:29.624 Speaker 1 actors. They're incredible. Uh, they really are, and these people are essentially
00:56:35.024 Speaker 1 volunteers, right? You know, they were paid a pittance more or less, and the promise
00:56:38.784 Speaker 1 of, "Ah, I promise there will be more stories [laughs] in the future. We're gonna
00:56:41.504 Speaker 1 make money eventually." Right? They were paid mostly on promises. Um, and they
00:56:46.224 Speaker 1 killed it. They really did. Um, it is incredible what you can get out of people who
00:56:51.624 Speaker 1 are motivated to help you with your cause. Not even because it's your cause. It has
00:56:55.684 Speaker 1 nothing to do with me. They are motivated to work on something cool, and that is
00:57:01.124 Speaker 1 what I focused on for this production, is how can I make this seem so cool that
00:57:06.864 Speaker 1 people would be dying to be a part of it? And that's what I did, and that's what
00:57:11.244 Speaker 1 worked. It had nothing to do with me.
00:57:13.644 Speaker 3 What was it like working with voice actors for the first time?
00:57:16.784 Speaker 1 It was initially terrifying. Uh, it is an entirely different skill set, learning how
00:57:22.444 Speaker 1 to direct people in a way that is both
00:57:26.324 Speaker 1 constructive. So all you theater people out here, you already get it. Like, you
00:57:29.824 Speaker 1 don't need... [laughs] You're not learning anything. Uh, but in a way that makes the
00:57:33.784 Speaker 1 performance better, and what your story needs most importantly. Better is like, you
00:57:38.824 Speaker 1 know, what does that mean? It fit... I tell every voice actor now at this point,
00:57:44.144 Speaker 1 there is a range for this character. There is a, a range of space where your
00:57:49.104 Speaker 1 performance makes sense narratively. Now, there's a lot of points in that space. You
00:57:53.924 Speaker 1 can lean on this part of the character, you can lean on that part of the character.
00:57:56.664 Speaker 1 You can come up with your own thing. That's fine, too. There's spaces I did not
00:58:00.284 Speaker 1 imagine for this character to behave. But it needs to fit within the narrative space
00:58:05.984 Speaker 1 of this character. There are ways to perform this character that are completely
00:58:09.604 Speaker 1 contrary to what is necessate- necessary for the plot and for the story and for
00:58:15.164 Speaker 1 their interactions with other characters. So you have to be in that space. It is my
00:58:20.044 Speaker 1 job to get you into that space, right? And to get the best out of you, right? Uh,
00:58:24.704 Speaker 1 there are better points in that space as well. My job is to make it so that you fit
00:58:29.924 Speaker 1 the character, your voice fits the character. Beyond that, the rest is your art. I'm
00:58:34.804 Speaker 1 not gonna micromanage you. I'm not gonna tell you how to do anything. Beyond, it
00:58:38.964 Speaker 1 needs to fit the story. And if it fits the story in a totally unexpected way, and by
00:58:43.004 Speaker 1 the way, it, multiple, even the main character, is totally unlike what I expected.
00:58:48.524 Speaker 1 Totally unlike how I wrote him. But it's awesome. And that's what matters. It's
00:58:54.044 Speaker 1 awesome. I didn't say, "You need to sound like this. You need to do this." In fact,
00:59:00.104 Speaker 1 all I did is I always say, "Hit me with your intuition first. I don't wanna tell you
00:59:04.164 Speaker 1 what it is. Let me tell you who they are, who they... where this character comes
00:59:07.864 Speaker 1 from, their purpose in the story, because you need to know what my end goal for the
00:59:11.264 Speaker 1 character is. As long as you get there, the rest is your art. I do not care." So
00:59:16.424 Speaker 1 that's my directing style now. I was absolutely terrified [laughs] and I probably
00:59:21.584 Speaker 1 made a lot of stupid decisions early on, where I was unwilling to push them into
00:59:26.084 Speaker 1 that space because I was, uh, not confident yet in my ability to do that, right?
00:59:31.744 Speaker 1 Because they know so much more about me, about this than me. They're actors, right?
00:59:35.624 Speaker 1 Uh, some of them are new, some of them are not new. They know what they're doing.
00:59:39.624 Speaker 1 And I w- this is, debut director. I do not know what I was doing. But when I showed
00:59:43.584 Speaker 1 up, and I got this advice from you, Tony. When I showed up, I opened with, "I have
00:59:48.884 Speaker 1 no idea what I am doing. Please give me feedback. That said, here's what I need you
00:59:54.424 Speaker 1 to do." [laughs] Right? I, I just flat out... I opened with, "I'm not pretending to
00:59:59.724 Speaker 1 be an expert here, so if I'm doing something dumb, tell me. Otherwise, this is what
01:00:04.584 Speaker 1 I need." Uh, and I think that made all the difference, and they were totally willing
01:00:10.384 Speaker 1 to correct me or to insist, um, and it made a big difference. We were teammates
01:00:16.104 Speaker 1 instead of a top-down thing.
01:00:17.764 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.
01:00:18.184 Speaker 1 So now it's old hat, and now I can do it no problem.
01:00:21.884 Speaker 3 Awesome. How did the mechanics of it work, though?
01:00:24.904 Speaker 1 So for the recording?
01:00:26.364 Speaker 3 Yeah. So, um-
01:00:28.364 Speaker 1 Yeah
01:00:28.404 Speaker 3 ... did you get all the actors all in the same room, or did, you know?
01:00:32.224 Speaker 1 So I'm very open about this. Uh, the cost of producing Mortal Steel was $1,400,
01:00:38.364 Speaker 1 uh, approximately, right? Plus or minus some plugins and other software I'm
01:00:41.764 Speaker 1 forgetting.
01:00:42.184 Speaker 3 Not bad.
01:00:43.124 Speaker 1 Uh-
01:00:43.244 Speaker 3 How, how many episodes?
01:00:45.124 Speaker 1 12.
01:00:45.984 Speaker 3 Okay.
01:00:46.384 Speaker 1 25-minute episodes-
01:00:47.344 Speaker 3 Not bad
01:00:47.424 Speaker 1 ... with, you know, full design, sound design, music. Now, obviously I'm doing all
01:00:50.984 Speaker 1 the post-production myself beyond the art and the, the music. But- Still,
01:00:57.424 Speaker 1 1,400 bucks ain't too shabby, and I know the next one, I know it could be cheaper
01:01:01.164 Speaker 1 too. I know how to make it cheaper.
01:01:02.824 Speaker 6 Mm-hmm.
01:01:02.964 Speaker 1 I'm not going to.
01:01:04.304 Speaker 6 But how did the actual mechanics of the-
01:01:06.564 Speaker 1 So the recording-
01:01:06.964 Speaker 6 ... uh, working with the actors go?
01:01:08.684 Speaker 1 Yeah, this is related. So we are recording asynchronously. What happens is I deliver
01:01:13.884 Speaker 1 the script, right? So I format the script. I give them the exact lines. They have a
01:01:18.424 Speaker 1 spreadsheet of all their lines, first of all, that's totally separate, just so they
01:01:21.744 Speaker 1 don't miss them. All the lines are individually labeled with numbers, IDs, in the
01:01:26.784 Speaker 1 order of appearance. Their character names are associated with them. So their job,
01:01:30.924 Speaker 1 say you have 12 lines in episode one, right? So we record it in four episode blocks
01:01:35.344 Speaker 1 at a time. All right, due date is next Wednesday. I want your four episodes worth of
01:01:40.404 Speaker 1 lines back in this Google Drive. So here's your folder. Here's, here's all the
01:01:45.144 Speaker 1 information about how you need to record and what the sound format is and all this.
01:01:49.144 Speaker 1 Here are the numbers of your lines and the line associated with it in parentheticals
01:01:53.384 Speaker 1 if it matters, right? You go off and do it, right? And you have the instruction that
01:01:58.744 Speaker 1 if you are in dialogue with another character, you listen to the dialogue line
01:02:03.424 Speaker 1 before yours if your, if their line is already in. If their line is not in, you get
01:02:08.344 Speaker 1 to set the pace for the dia- for the conversation, right? You record all your lines
01:02:12.184 Speaker 1 as if there were a phantom there talking to you, and then they listen to yours to
01:02:16.324 Speaker 1 make it flow. And it is shocking how good it is. Now, there are times when it comes
01:02:21.444 Speaker 1 off kind of flat.
01:02:21.864 Speaker 6 Oh, so you gave the recording... So if two people are in conversation-
01:02:24.964 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm
01:02:25.184 Speaker 6 ... person number one records their lines with gaps for c- for the other person's
01:02:30.904 Speaker 6 dialogue, and then you give that whole recording to the second actor?
01:02:35.964 Speaker 1 No, no, no.
01:02:36.204 Speaker 6 And the second actor responds to it?
01:02:37.604 Speaker 1 Even better than that. That's not streamlined enough. So what happens is they are
01:02:41.244 Speaker 1 responsible for chopping up their own clips. So one underscore 137 is this line.
01:02:47.604 Speaker 1 I want that clip, one underscore 137.wav, in my folder by this due date. And
01:02:53.664 Speaker 1 I have all of these individual Lego pieces that I can move around to change the
01:02:57.684 Speaker 1 timing of the dialogue. It's not one track. I asked, I ha- made an e- extra ask. You
01:03:03.004 Speaker 1 chop it up for me and organize it so that I can just assemble the pieces later. Uh,
01:03:08.384 Speaker 1 it's even better than that. Um, so yeah, they listen to the other dialogue clips
01:03:12.164 Speaker 1 before them so that if you pressed play, going all the way down, you would hear the
01:03:15.864 Speaker 1 episode, minus narration. So the whole show was recorded with 11 people talking to
01:03:21.164 Speaker 1 themselves in a closet, you know, or wherever their recording space is. No person
01:03:25.084 Speaker 1 talks to themselves live.
01:03:26.264 Speaker 6 Wow, so they were never in the same room.
01:03:28.404 Speaker 1 Nope. Not once did we ever talk together. And I mean, I challenge you to listen to
01:03:34.044 Speaker 1 it and see if you can tell. There are some times when it falls a little flat. It's,
01:03:38.584 Speaker 1 you know, comes with the territory. But that kept costs down.
01:03:41.264 Speaker 6 No, I thought it was great, you know?
01:03:42.684 Speaker 1 Yeah. So it works. Uh, and it's very important because it kept, from a business
01:03:46.544 Speaker 1 perspective, 'cause it keeps costs down. All of these people have day jobs, you
01:03:49.864 Speaker 1 know. They work in bars. They work retail. They work customer support. And some of
01:03:54.004 Speaker 1 them work overtime, right? They're busy, right? This is their passion. So
01:04:00.244 Speaker 1 when they're coming home at 11:00 and they have to get their voice lines in, the
01:04:03.924 Speaker 1 last thing you want to tell them is, "Hey, you have to be here at this time for two
01:04:09.424 Speaker 1 hours to record the two lines that you have in this episode." It's an ask too much.
01:04:14.664 Speaker 1 Right? I could do it, but then I would also need to pay them thousands of dollars,
01:04:18.764 Speaker 1 because it's no longer a passion thing. It's like a, you know, they're ma- they're
01:04:21.944 Speaker 1 here for a job. Um, which is fine, and I want to get to that point where I can do
01:04:26.624 Speaker 1 that. But when you're starting small and cheap, you have to get creative about
01:04:31.404 Speaker 1 solving the problems to get the cost down. So for reference, and I think I told you
01:04:35.224 Speaker 1 this, Tony, I read an article recently that described how to make an audio fiction
01:04:39.504 Speaker 1 podcast. And part of it, the last third, is talking about budget. And so they
01:04:45.444 Speaker 1 go through this whole step-by-step about how they produced their own show and what
01:04:48.704 Speaker 1 they did. Their budget, actual co- dollars spent, was $75,000.
01:04:54.804 Speaker 1 And they told you it could not be done for less than 50. And it c- should have taken
01:04:59.444 Speaker 1 them $125,000, but they were so proud of themselves for saving money. And it
01:05:04.984 Speaker 1 blew my mind. Now, I've listened to their show, and not to throw shade on other
01:05:09.284 Speaker 1 artists, it's not about that. This is about the business of what they're doing. For
01:05:13.824 Speaker 1 the output they got, just objectively speaking, it was worse than where I am now.
01:05:20.584 Speaker 1 And that's, it's sad. It's, it's not a good thing. This is not like, "Oh yeah, I'm
01:05:25.304 Speaker 1 flexing on you. I figured something out." This is sad because it deters other people
01:05:29.764 Speaker 1 from thinking they can make incredible things on a budget. And you can solve so much
01:05:35.504 Speaker 1 if you are willing to get creative and approach a problem with a solution mindset
01:05:40.724 Speaker 1 instead of giving up and paying people to solve it for you. You do not need an
01:05:45.604 Speaker 1 expert for everything. You can be that expert in short order. It's been, what, eight
01:05:51.164 Speaker 1 months? And I mean, it's at least convincing, right? I don't sound like a master in
01:05:55.944 Speaker 1 any of the things I'm doing, but I sound good enough to sell, or nearly so.
01:06:02.064 Speaker 1 And isn't that the bar?
01:06:03.184 Speaker 6 And you're learning.
01:06:03.224 Speaker 1 If that's not the bar, I don't know what is.
01:06:05.424 Speaker 6 And you're learning. You're striving to get better, but you understand getting
01:06:09.484 Speaker 6 better is a process.
01:06:10.724 Speaker 1 Yeah, you don't start ready, and you don't need to start with $100,000 to make
01:06:15.124 Speaker 1 something incredible. Just start doing it, and you will learn very quickly whether
01:06:20.604 Speaker 1 you need a real expert or not. And for almost everything, you do not. And
01:06:26.584 Speaker 1 when you do, at least you will walk into it knowing, like, okay, yeah, the experts
01:06:30.124 Speaker 1 really are worth the money on this one. Like, uh, yep, for sure. Like the guitar
01:06:34.784 Speaker 1 player I got for the intro and outro, I'm not gonna learn how to play guitar. I'm
01:06:38.644 Speaker 1 not gonna learn how to shred. Like [laughs] it's not worth it. I paid him $200 on
01:06:42.564 Speaker 1 Fiverr, and he was happy to do it for me in two days, right? They spent $3,500 on
01:06:48.284 Speaker 1 their composing and producing, 'cause they hired a professional composer and
01:06:51.284 Speaker 1 producer who was set up to charge that much. They did totally custom work. They
01:06:55.324 Speaker 1 didn't give them the freedom. They went top-down on everything. "This is exactly
01:06:58.804 Speaker 1 what I need." They went through a ton of takes. I trusted an expert to give me
01:07:02.944 Speaker 1 something good on their timeline. So by being way less needy about what I got in the
01:07:07.876 Speaker 1 end, "Give me something good. I don't care what it is. This is roughly what I want.
01:07:13.056 Speaker 1 Give it to me. Let's see what you can do." And for 200 bucks, this guy was able to
01:07:16.836 Speaker 1 do it, no problem, in his free time. Probably took, took him a couple hours. He was
01:07:19.876 Speaker 1 happy. I was happy. Nobody got hurt in the exchange.
01:07:23.796 Speaker 6 Hmm. I like that.
01:07:24.956 Speaker 1 Yes.
01:07:24.976 Speaker 6 Because he's the one composing the music, you wanted him to be moved by the story. I
01:07:30.356 Speaker 6 will tell you that I charge a lot more than that to do a show.
01:07:34.116 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
01:07:34.136 Speaker 6 You know?
01:07:34.816 Speaker 1 And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not disparaging-
01:07:36.556 Speaker 6 There's nothing wrong with that
01:07:37.596 Speaker 1 ... paying professionals.
01:07:38.776 Speaker 6 But, yeah, you're talking about the level that you're at right now and your goals.
01:07:42.176 Speaker 1 Yeah.
01:07:42.556 Speaker 6 Um, I used to, when my daughter was growing up, I used to tell her, "Don't worry so
01:07:48.396 Speaker 6 much about school." That's not to say school isn't important, but it's to say you
01:07:52.856 Speaker 6 don't go to school because you already know the stuff.
01:07:55.856 Speaker 1 Yeah.
01:07:56.216 Speaker 6 You're there to learn what you don't know, and that's kind of beautiful to me. Your
01:08:01.976 Speaker 6 goal was to produce these things because you're going to school.
01:08:06.096 Speaker 1 Yeah.
01:08:06.236 Speaker 6 You are teaching yourself how to be a great producer.
01:08:10.056 Speaker 1 Exactly.
01:08:10.336 Speaker 6 You know, and one of the reasons, uh, one great reason why I really wanted to talk
01:08:15.836 Speaker 6 to you about your process and all of this is because if you think of the arch
01:08:22.296 Speaker 6 of... No, not, not an arc because an arc implies an up and a down. Let's say a
01:08:27.736 Speaker 6 curve. There's a tipping point in that curve. After the tipping point, there are
01:08:33.736 Speaker 6 people after the tipping point, Josh Whedon, um, Aaron
01:08:39.776 Speaker 6 Sorkin, you know, uh, big Broadway theaters.
01:08:44.116 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
01:08:44.456 Speaker 6 You are just before the curve. You are going around that curve-
01:08:50.216 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm
01:08:50.536 Speaker 6 ... and I caught you just before the curve, and the story where you're at right now
01:08:56.416 Speaker 6 is extremely intriguing because there are other people who are in the same
01:09:02.336 Speaker 6 place as you, just before the tipping point, just before the curve-
01:09:07.396 Speaker 1 Yeah
01:09:07.456 Speaker 6 ... and they give up.
01:09:08.436 Speaker 1 "Can I do this? Can I do this? Can I do this?" And then the wheels fall off.
01:09:11.476 Speaker 1 [laughs]
01:09:12.916 Speaker 6 Yeah, and instead of... But it, but here's the thing. Here's the difference, and
01:09:16.896 Speaker 6 here's what I love about you. If the wheels fall off, like you said about the
01:09:21.616 Speaker 6 literary agents-
01:09:23.276 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm
01:09:23.716 Speaker 6 ... the, the people you spoke to, the difference is when the wheels fall off, you
01:09:29.016 Speaker 6 say, "Okay, why did they fall off? Let me learn from that and put it back... Let me
01:09:33.876 Speaker 6 figure out how to put the wheels back on." And maybe the wheels-
01:09:36.116 Speaker 1 Yeah
01:09:36.136 Speaker 6 ... don't come on exactly the same way.
01:09:37.776 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes
01:09:37.776 Speaker 6 ... maybe you have to take a different path, right?
01:09:40.336 Speaker 1 You're exactly right.
01:09:41.056 Speaker 6 And that's the difference.
01:09:42.956 Speaker 1 It can all be distilled down to this one reaction. When you get punched in the face,
01:09:48.896 Speaker 1 do you fall down and think to yourself, "I'm never gonna do that again. That hurt,"
01:09:54.296 Speaker 1 or do you think, "I need to get better at avoiding getting punched in the face"?
01:09:58.656 Speaker 6 [laughs]
01:09:59.896 Speaker 1 Like, that is it. Everything... Now, there's a lot of ways to change a reaction. We
01:10:03.436 Speaker 1 talked about all that, surrounding yourself with people who can get you back up and
01:10:07.056 Speaker 1 get you better at dodging punches, right? But the, all of it is in a solution
01:10:11.256 Speaker 1 mindset. When I get hurt, do I think, "I'm gonna do less of that. That hurt," or do
01:10:16.736 Speaker 1 you think, "I can do this. I just need to figure out how to not get hurt again.
01:10:22.436 Speaker 1 Let's get better." Like, how do I get around this obstacle? And you have... And this
01:10:26.296 Speaker 1 isn't something that just happens to you, flip a switch one time and you're done. A
01:10:30.076 Speaker 1 solution mindset is something you will continually, continually, continually have to
01:10:34.436 Speaker 1 pound into yourself. When you get hit, you have to be thinking, "How do I get around
01:10:40.456 Speaker 1 this next time?" And it is very hard because your initial reaction, especially if
01:10:44.776 Speaker 1 this is new to you, is to think, "I never wanna do this again. I just got told no on
01:10:48.496 Speaker 1 that pitch. Well, screw that. I'm done with this." You may not say it in as many
01:10:53.316 Speaker 1 words. You may just think, "I don't wanna do this anymore. That felt bad. Let's do
01:10:57.296 Speaker 1 something else instead."
01:10:58.756 Speaker 6 Cool.
01:10:58.916 Speaker 1 But instead, you think, "Well, that hurt. There's probably something to learn here."
01:11:03.456 Speaker 1 And even if you're not ready to hear that right away, the next day when you wake up,
01:11:07.156 Speaker 1 you think, "Okay, what did I learn? How can I move forward?" It doesn't feel good.
01:11:12.596 Speaker 1 It never feels good to get punched, but [laughs] if you can continually improve,
01:11:19.096 Speaker 1 it'll happen less and less and to the point where you don't even feel it anymore.
01:11:22.436 Speaker 1 You know what's crazy, Tony? What's really crazy is one day you start waking up
01:11:27.075 Speaker 1 hoping you get punched because it means you're learning something.
01:11:31.096 Speaker 6 Mm-hmm.
01:11:31.156 Speaker 1 It means every time you do, you start craving it. You s- That's when you know,
01:11:35.436 Speaker 1 "Yeah, I'm gonna make it." And I haven't made it over the bend yet. I'm close, but I
01:11:39.876 Speaker 1 feel like when you start craving the knowledge, when you start wondering how you're
01:11:45.296 Speaker 1 wrong and actively seeking out, "I bet I'm wrong about this. I bet I'm wrong about
01:11:49.756 Speaker 1 this. How can I find out if I'm wrong about this?" Now, you might not be, and you
01:11:53.176 Speaker 1 might be right, and for once you're like, "Yay, I did it right. On to the next
01:11:56.276 Speaker 1 thing." But if you're wrong, like I was yesterday, I sought that out because I
01:12:01.296 Speaker 1 craved it. I wanted to know how I was going to fail, and I knew that when you
01:12:07.316 Speaker 1 start wanting to know how you're bad, you're w- not only willing to hear criticism,
01:12:13.376 Speaker 1 but you, you desire it because you want to succeed so much more than you want to not
01:12:18.156 Speaker 1 get punched in the face. When that, that scale tips, I feel like that's when you
01:12:22.496 Speaker 1 make it. Uh, we'll see, right? [laughs]
01:12:26.216 Speaker 6 Hmm. Yeah. We'll see.
01:12:26.776 Speaker 1 I'm not speaking from the top of a mountain. I'm speaking hopefully from the way up.
01:12:30.916 Speaker 6 Now, getting back to the way you, the mechanics of the way you recorded it.
01:12:36.036 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
01:12:36.136 Speaker 6 As a sound designer, I know that if you have all those little snippets, those clips
01:12:42.536 Speaker 6 of actors' lines, putting all that together is a nightmare.
01:12:48.196 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
01:12:48.416 Speaker 6 Uh, even if it's only 20 minutes.
01:12:50.676 Speaker 1 Hmm.
01:12:50.876 Speaker 6 Are you gonna do it that way again, or, or what did you learn from that experience?
01:12:55.736 Speaker 1 I knew that I had to do it. I knew that it was important to take
01:13:03.116 Speaker 1 a wrong step, even if it was inefficient. And a bad decision. I knew I
01:13:09.024 Speaker 1 needed to take action. I knew I needed voice actors. I knew I needed their clips.
01:13:13.904 Speaker 1 And this was the only way I could think of, of getting it on a reasonable timeframe
01:13:17.124 Speaker 1 in a way that let me accomplish all my other goals. So ultimately, I had to do it
01:13:22.304 Speaker 1 because I knew that it was o- I was gonna learn from it. I was gonna figure out
01:13:26.144 Speaker 1 whether this worked. Either it doesn't work, and I have to go do the hard way of
01:13:31.284 Speaker 1 scheduling everybody, getting them in the same room, whether virtual or not. All
01:13:35.304 Speaker 1 right? It gets a lot harder. I knew that I was more likely to fail
01:13:41.364 Speaker 1 by mulling on whether this was the right choice or not. I was more likely to fail
01:13:46.504 Speaker 1 because I did not take action, and I overthought it, and I gave up, and I did
01:13:50.824 Speaker 1 something else, than I was to fail if I did it wrong and it was hard work, uh,
01:13:56.844 Speaker 1 in order to make it work again. So the short answer is it took about six hours the
01:14:00.464 Speaker 1 first time. I measure every single step of my production, um, just to get more
01:14:05.264 Speaker 1 efficient. So the first time it took about six hours. The second time it took about
01:14:08.364 Speaker 1 two hours. It's not that hard. I have it down less than that now because I got good
01:14:13.284 Speaker 1 at it. Because like anything else, it's a skill, and like anything else, you can
01:14:16.644 Speaker 1 figure out how to do this. So now I have a way of recording my narration that makes
01:14:21.184 Speaker 1 it very simple. I literally just clap, and I say the numbers of the clips, because
01:14:25.824 Speaker 1 they're all numbered, right? Remember that? They're all numbered. I say, [claps]
01:14:29.444 Speaker 1 "48, 47, [laughs] 47, 48, 49." I sound insane, right? I'm just, I'm in character.
01:14:33.524 Speaker 6 No, that's called, that's slating. That's called slating.
01:14:36.504 Speaker 1 Yeah.
01:14:36.544 Speaker 6 You know the old movie, um, clappers?
01:14:39.624 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Yeah.
01:14:40.244 Speaker 6 They're a slate, and they would put the chalk and the scene number and stuff.
01:14:42.844 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Again, another idea that came from you. Uh, you, Tony's advice is great,
01:14:47.444 Speaker 1 everybody. Uh, so and then by threading it that way, um, he can't say it, but I can.
01:14:53.324 Speaker 1 Uh, so it made a huge difference, and I can do it. And yeah, there are some
01:14:58.264 Speaker 1 drawbacks, but there's a lot of upside for an independent producer. So don't be
01:15:02.544 Speaker 1 afraid to break the mold if it's forward progress, if you're gonna learn something.
01:15:08.504 Speaker 1 Worst case scenario, it failed miserably. I'd have to go back and do more takes. We
01:15:12.784 Speaker 1 schedule some point in the future where we can start recording episodes. It was
01:15:15.724 Speaker 1 recoverable. So I knew that I would learn something, and if it worked, it would make
01:15:20.924 Speaker 1 everything easier. I could have recording done in three weeks, and I don't have to
01:15:24.624 Speaker 1 do anything. I literally just directed them each for one session. I just ran through
01:15:29.304 Speaker 1 10 lines or so for each character. We narrowed down their voice, and the rest was
01:15:33.244 Speaker 1 like, "Okay, have fun. See you later." And their clips just started showing up in
01:15:37.024 Speaker 1 the do- in the drive. Now, of course, I had to push people for deadlines and all
01:15:40.604 Speaker 1 that, like, but for the most part, these guys were professional guys and gals. They
01:15:44.764 Speaker 1 were all professionals. Like, it was shocking what a group of volunteers put
01:15:49.004 Speaker 1 together by themselves with nothing but a set of rules that I cooked up on the fly
01:15:54.664 Speaker 1 and motivation for a project, for a dream. It's shocking what you can accomplish.
01:16:00.904 Speaker 6 Thanks, Steven. Thank you very much for talking and sharing some of your
01:16:04.864 Speaker 6 experiences. If you were to give any advice, let's say there's somebody
01:16:10.544 Speaker 6 listening who is just before the tipping point, just before the curve, and their
01:16:14.844 Speaker 6 wheels fell off, what would you tell them?
01:16:17.704 Speaker 1 You have to know why you're doing what you're doing. Are you running away from
01:16:23.204 Speaker 1 something? Are you building something? And I had this realization talking to another
01:16:27.544 Speaker 1 person. Again, giving advice is a great way to learn about yourself.
01:16:32.864 Speaker 1 I realized that there is no right path in life, which is why I go back to my
01:16:37.984 Speaker 1 metaphor, the being on the path or off the path. It's not why it's more complicated.
01:16:41.604 Speaker 1 Is it the right path? There is no right path. There are aspects of your personality
01:16:47.764 Speaker 1 that you can emphasize. There are dreams, and all of them are valid. Some of them
01:16:51.964 Speaker 1 have trade-offs. Some of them have pros and cons. They all affect your life in some
01:16:55.904 Speaker 1 way. But once you've chosen one, understood that none of the other paths are better
01:17:01.364 Speaker 1 than this one, this thing you chose to make, which you believed so dearly, and up
01:17:06.244 Speaker 1 until this point, you're sitting there, you're looking at your car, all the wheels
01:17:08.864 Speaker 1 are off, to go back to that metaphor. You're thinking, "Do I want to put this back
01:17:12.384 Speaker 1 together? Do I want to get back together and try again, even though it hurts?"
01:17:18.884 Speaker 1 This path is not better than any other. Those other paths are not better than this
01:17:22.884 Speaker 1 one. Now, you may find out that you actually, truly do not enjoy this path. That's
01:17:27.944 Speaker 1 fine. Move on. Don't judge yourself for it like I used to. Don't judge yourself for
01:17:32.824 Speaker 1 it anymore. But if the thing is that you're just avoiding pain, know that all those
01:17:37.584 Speaker 1 paths have breakdowns on them too. There is no way to avoid this pain.
01:17:43.584 Speaker 1 So if this path truly isn't the right one, this project, this thing you're trying to
01:17:47.684 Speaker 1 build isn't the right one, that's okay. Move on. Don't put it back together. That
01:17:52.144 Speaker 1 doesn't make sense.
01:17:54.384 Speaker 1 But all of those paths are hard. If you're doing anything meaningful, every single
01:18:00.044 Speaker 1 one of them is hard, so you're not gonna be able to avoid pain, and none of them are
01:18:04.504 Speaker 1 better than this one. So you are probably better served, I got this advice recently,
01:18:10.064 Speaker 1 following a path and a bad goal to its completion than
01:18:16.084 Speaker 1 you are [laughs] attempting to make a new goal and giving up early. You will learn
01:18:21.024 Speaker 1 more following a bad path to its completion than you will learn from switching paths
01:18:25.704 Speaker 1 because one looks better than the other. That's what I'll say. So set a goal, reach
01:18:30.764 Speaker 1 it, and when you reach that goal, if you've decided it didn't give you the feeling
01:18:33.944 Speaker 1 you want, then move on.
01:18:36.224 Speaker 6 Nice.
01:18:38.144 Speaker 6 Thanks, man.
01:18:39.444 Speaker 1 Thank you, Tony. And one final pitch, uh, Tony is incredible. Uh, I have learned
01:18:45.664 Speaker 1 so, so much from him as a creative coach. It really is one of the reasons that I am
01:18:51.384 Speaker 1 still on the path for this goal and not on something else. Uh, and I'm not just,
01:18:57.104 Speaker 1 just trying to butter him up. It really is a fundamental piece of success. It
01:19:02.004 Speaker 1 doesn't have to be Tony, but it should be somebody. You should have somebody in your
01:19:06.184 Speaker 1 life who cares about what you're producing no matter how bad it is, somebody who
01:19:11.564 Speaker 1 will pat you on the back and say, "When's the next one?" That's what you need.
01:19:17.204 Speaker 6 Aw, thanks. I'm not sure I'm gonna include that, but