5 Reality 102

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5 Reality 102
Source: reality/007-5-reality-102.mp3
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Model: scribe_v2 | Transcribed: 2026-10-10T18:07:26.080784+00:00
Machine transcript — uncorrected. Speaker labels are local to this recording and do not identify people.

[00:00:00.000] Speaker 1: [upbeat music] Reality 101 is a journal of impossible experiences, from first-hand explorations into the nature of reality, what it means for all of us, and how you can experience it for yourself. I'm Stephen Trumbek.

[00:00:22.200] Speaker 2: And I'm Joshua Swanson. And this episode of Reality 101 is called Reality 102. It's about the rules of multiplayer reality at a fundamental level. If you are your entire reality, why do things happen that you don't like? How does anyone else exist? And why can't you do anything you want instantly? These answers and others came through another lecture experience that Stephen had. But before we dive in on that, we always like to start with a little check-in, so wondering how you're arriving today, Stephen.

[00:00:54.240] Speaker 1: Great day. Uh, it's a serendipitous time to be talking to each other. Had a lot of profound experiences late last night, early this morning, some out-of-body experiences, really weird stuff. Um, it was cool. [chuckles] Like, I met people who are alive now in an out-of-body experience in, like, a scene, and, like, interacted with them, and that was weird. I don't know what to do with that one. Uh, it's-- But it was cool. It was profound and, and I enjoyed it. It was, it was meaningful personal-

[00:01:29.100] Speaker 1: personally, but not to, like... I wouldn't expound, like, a whole bunch of lessons based on this, but it was... You know, more and more as I've gone on, 'cause it's been a while since we've recorded, I'm less having things happen to me and more initiating it. I can set intentions, and they don't always happen, but 20 to 30% hit rate. Like, I can initiate these kinds of experiences, uh, more and more, which is cool. Telepathy is a lot easier. Direct contact's a lot easier. Other skills have atrophied at the same time. [chuckles] Uh, but it's, you know, it's awesome. I, I think it shows that there is a

[00:02:04.000] Speaker 1: progression, like, if you keep practicing at this to, like, you move from stuff happening to you, like, you get these breakthroughs and stuff is random and it's all noise, to, like, "Oh, I can kinda, like, steer now," right? It's no less mysterious. It's still pretty mysterious, but, like, I can kinda, like, make stuff happen, and sometimes it actually happens, more or less, like, similar to what I intended, which is cool. And, um, anyway, how are you?

[00:02:31.120] Speaker 2: Wow, that's cool to hear. Um, one thought that just came up as you were sharing about that, I've read several books and done lots of, like, work on dreamworks and thing-- dreamwork and things like that. Um, forgot the name of the first author, but Robert Monroe and this other guy who wrote, writes about dreambook, dreamwork both suggest that every night we go out of body, we just don't always remember it, and sometimes it's, like, filtered through what we interpret as our dreams, but those might actually be out-of-body experiences, especially if you have dreams of flying and things like that, they suggest. So when you're meeting other people, I'm like,

[00:03:06.140] Speaker 2: well, maybe you're aware of your out-of-body experience, and you're actually meeting these other people, but they're, you know, in the dream state or something. I think that's an interesting idea. Uh, [clears throat] uh, yeah, so for me, you know, I-- we checked in a little bit before this. I've been really, uh, engaged in some of my creative work. I've been doing AI filmmaking and entered a contest. Uh, so I have a short film that's largely inspired by, you know, my own personal practices with psychic phenomena and practices and training and, you know, a lot of Stephen's, uh, journey. So it's

[00:03:41.100] Speaker 2: called "Psy Guy." I'm gonna throw it up on YouTube soon, so hopefully it'll be up before this episode airs.

[00:03:45.420] Speaker 1: Put a link in the show notes, man.

[00:03:46.960] Speaker 2: Okay, yeah. Let's do it. Yeah.

[00:03:48.480] Speaker 1: Yeah. Just directly link.

[00:03:49.360] Speaker 2: Oh, perfect. Yeah. It's-- And, and it was a s- it was, um, a project that really pushed me to, uh, up my skills and work harder over a short period of time than I've ever worked before. Uh, it was only, like, three weeks at first from the time they announced the contest to the deadline. Uh, and then, of course, they extended it by two weeks, so I finished quite a bit earlier than I, um, expected, uh, with time to spare. But, uh, yeah, I'm really proud of myself for accomplishing that and really ha- happy with how it turned out. Um,

[00:04:24.960] Speaker 2: yeah, and then on the... I think I've been more, you know, really in the zone with more, like, work in the world. [chuckles] Uh, and I have been doing, you know, my inner practices as well, but it-- I just haven't ha- been having very big experiences recently. But as you were talking, you know, I'm always like, this is kind of a pl- the place where I sort of check in a little bit, and I, I had, did have a couple interesting experiences recently. One was... Yeah, I don't know. I've sh- I've shared about my perceiving that I'm connecting with the grays through meditation, and, uh,

[00:05:00.440] Speaker 2: it's interesting 'cause, like, I'll sit and, like, I woke up the other night, like 3:00 a.m., was meditating a bit, and I'm feeling around for, like, different beings that I've, like, relate to, you know? My higher self or my ancestors. But then the moment I begin to think about, like, kind of br- draw my awareness to, like, the image of this, like, a gray alien, then my whole body lights with, like, energy, like pinging sort of, like, vibration. Um, I don't really know what to make of that. It's not like I have any clear, like, messages coming through. It's just kinda like... It's sh-

[00:05:35.540] Speaker 2: yeah. It's just, like, this sort of, uh, presence felt or something. And then it happened again last night. I was listening to a medi- like, guided meditation trying to fall back asleep, and I just randomly had the thought, like, "Maybe the gray aliens are the same as the mantis beings 'cause they have those big eyes. Maybe they're actually insectoid beings or something." And then I got this ping, [chuckles] like, this energy. Uh- No, that's-- I mean, it's just like, uh, somatic. It's really somatic. But it's kind of like a very alive feeling.

[00:06:12.020] Speaker 2: Oh, that's my, that's my report, my weirdness report. [chuckles]

[00:06:16.220] Speaker 1: Somebody's pinging you.

[00:06:17.560] Speaker 2: Somebody's pinging me.

[00:06:18.840] Speaker 1: It'll lead somewhere.

[00:06:19.320] Speaker 2: I don't know if they're aliens, but, uh, it's, it's interesting to think about that. [chuckles]

[00:06:24.140] Speaker 1: Probably. Anyone-

[00:06:25.400] Speaker 2: Probably.

[00:06:25.760] Speaker 1: But a human being is an alien, technically, right?

[00:06:27.880] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:06:28.320] Speaker 1: I mean, are not from Earth. That's probably gonna be most people.

[00:06:31.780] Speaker 2: [chuckles] Cool. So yeah, um, yeah, I would like to just, like dive in. So this is Reality 102. Um, where do we begin?

[00:06:45.340] Speaker 1: So we begin the literal day after the C experience, which was that three-part series that we just did. So I mean, that night, I know stuff's gonna go down. Anytime there's like some big breakthrough, this seems to happen. When I opened Mindsight, um, when I've had other similar extreme experiences or revelations, and those things are often preceded by moments of profound personal growth, overcoming big problems, forgiving somebody. It could be something huge, right? Or dealing with a problem you haven't dealt with for a very long time, uh, deciding or

[00:07:20.300] Speaker 1: taking big action or some- on something. That, that plus intention seems to open you up for a big experience eventually, and then you have it, and then you learn something from it. And then after that, you seem to have, like, the window blown open, right? Okay. It's like a temporary effect. You can imagine there's just a lot of power in the area. There's like this almost like a, like fusion or fission or something. Like you've released... Yeah, you did the initial work, but there's like a bunch of energy here. Uh, you-- if your goal was just to split the atom, well, you did that, but now you've got this extra energy sitting around. Uh, so that gets put to use.

[00:07:55.180] Speaker 1: [chuckles] And that got put to use the following day. I knew it would. I could just feel it. Just had a sense of it, and it was all tingly. Just felt electrified. Um, and I did. Uh, so this covers that experience. It started with some pretty profound and extremely vivid, um, liminal state experiences. Uh, I saw my soul sister again, and that was cool. Most of that is not relevant and, and personal, but very touching. The reason I don't cover it is because the

[00:08:30.240] Speaker 1: next one, uh, is extremely profound and highly relevant to everybody else. Um, so I'm done with that, right? And I'm like, "Wow, that was crazy." I wake up in the middle of the night, and I go back to sleep. So I've already had one experience. I'm like, "Whoa, that was pretty wild." I'm having a lot of emotions, and I start to fall back asleep. And as I start to fall back asleep, I'm laying downstairs in the living room, uh, because I was having trouble sleeping, um, or falling back asleep. And I'm laying, uh, like on the floor.

[00:09:05.180] Speaker 1: We've got a mat that you can sleep on. It's like a big dog bed. I'm sleeping on that thing. I'm trying to fall asleep, and just as I start to fall asleep, I notice this presence. Somebody's there. I don't see anything, but if you close your eyes and somebody stood right next to you, and you knew they were there before you closed your eyes, you would kind of feel their presence there. You know, like they're waiting there, like at your desk. Like nothing impatient. They're just kind of waiting for you to notice them, like, "I'll get to you in a second." They're waiting for you to finish what you're doing and notice them. And I can feel this presence there, and I'm like, "I know who this is. I know what that feeling is." And

[00:09:40.060] Speaker 1: it's my soul mother. And she's sitting there, and as soon as I start getting some images, I know exactly what's happening. And I just start smiling, and I'm like, "This is it." I'm like, "I know what you're doing." There's never any introduction. This... I don't know why. I-- [chuckles] Nobody calls and says, "Hey, this is who it is." Like, "Oh, I'm gonna let you know." Sometimes you get a heads-up, but at least for me, it's, "We're gonna get right into it. I'm just gonna start teaching."

[00:10:07.460] Speaker 2: No preamble, "How you doing, Steven?" [chuckles]

[00:10:09.940] Speaker 1: Nope. Well, you've noticed me, and you've put your attention on me, so that must count as picking up the phone. No, she just starts by showing me, uh, a visual of a tree frog drawn right into my imagination. Imagine you're just laying there with your eyes closed, you have that sensation, and then suddenly you have really clear imaginary visuals of a tree frog just sitting there in the blackness. I'm like, "Okay, that's weird." As if you were doing it yourself, like, really well. You're having a good day. I'm like, "But you're not doing anything. You're not even trying." It's just there. It's hopping around, jumping on stuff, jumping on me, acting all cute. And I, I start to-- And then she starts asking me questions.

[00:10:45.320] Speaker 1: Now I get the verbal thoughts, right? And these are popping in, too. I'm not trying. If you were just chilling, looking at your, on your back porch, looking out at the horizon, and suddenly you just started having thoughts of somebody talking to you, that is exactly what this feels like. It's very strong. You don't have to try at all. It's just there. So this is uncommon levels of, like, quality telepathy. Like, whoa, okay. I am not having to do anything. I could just sit back and watch the show. And I'm like, "Cool." [chuckles] And I just smile because, uh, I know, and I said, "This is it. This is Reality 102.

[00:11:20.380] Speaker 1: You're finally giving me this freaking follow-up lecture." It's like four and a half months later after the first one, or five months. I'm like, "I wanna know. I got so many questions," and just like, I've been asking, like, nonstop. Yo, there's like so many unanswered questions. I think we covered some of them in the intro. Okay, your en- your entire reality, we covered some of that stuff. How is there anyone else here? Why can't I do anything I want? Why am I not aware of this all the time? Why does bad stuff happen to me? All these things. Um, how does imagination work? Like, [chuckles] what is... I need to know. How do other people do stuff to me? Like, I need to know

[00:11:55.420] Speaker 1: how this works. It's crickets for like four and a half months, and then suddenly just shows up. All right. And I know that's what this is going to be. Now, Reality 102 is the name I gave it. Uh, she never, like, n-named the lectures. This is just, yeah, no preamble, very matter of fact So she's-- I'm seeing this tree frog, and she starts asking me questions. And the first question is, "What do you see?" "I see a tree frog." So a lot of this is a back and forth Q&A, right? They show you something, maybe ask a few leading questions, and then the rest is up for you to start answering yourself, right? It's very

[00:12:30.244] Speaker 1: hands-on, very direct. Not a lot of-- a little bit of leading, but that's about it. I say, "I see a tree frog." "Great. What is it?" I'm like, "It's me." Like, I just had this C experience, right? So I just had the experience of being my entire reality directly in waking life. So I'm like, "Okay, well, I know it's me," right? It's made out of the same stuff as me. Like, and she says, "Yes, that's correct." I'm like, "Cool. [chuckles] All right, passed that test." And then, then she says, "What about from the frog's perspective? What is there?" I'm like, "I don't know." [chuckles] If I'm

[00:13:05.204] Speaker 1: my whole reality, what is it-- what is the frog experiencing? Like... And she says, "There is the exper- from your experience, you are your entire reality. From the frog's perspective, they are a frog. They are having the experience of being a frog, and there is their entire reality, and you are in it as well." Right? So you're in their world, they're in your world, assuming in this case that a frog has an individualized soul. I make no claims on whether that's true or not. This is literally just given as, like, a demonstration. She says, "Yes. So you are

[00:13:40.164] Speaker 1: your own reality from your perspective. The frog is its own reality from its perspective." Direct quote, "That is all." There's nothing else. That's it. That is all. That's all there is. Like, don't overcomplicate it. That's all that exists, um, at least from the perspective of individual souls. Um, so there is, like, a little tangent, because this is my immediate question. Like, I have so many questions. So I'm, like, summarizing what my questions are, especially since this lasts, like, an hour and a half to two hours, and I have to go info dump this later, so a lot of the narrative is missing.

[00:14:15.324] Speaker 1: But I ask follow-up questions about, "Okay, yeah, but, like, for everything?" And she says, "There are different kinds of constructs in consciousness. They're not all individual souls. There are other stuff out there." So you can consider, like, a, a person or probably any, like, humanoid alien person, I think they're probably all individual souls, right? This-- the rules apply to them. So if you're a human being listening to this, all these rules apply to you. There are other stuff, weird emergent stuff like grass. Like, [chuckles] it's probably part of something bigger or hive minds. Like, there's a bunch of other stuff, thought forms. Uh,

[00:14:50.464] Speaker 1: these are all weird. Don't worry about those. I get a hand wave for those, basically.

[00:14:54.704] Speaker 2: [chuckles]

[00:14:55.404] Speaker 1: And here's what she says. "Okay, there are different constructs." Okay. "But these rules, everything you were just given and the rules that follow, most of the magic is in the emergent phenomena between, among, and throughout these rules, and that there are many separate lessons." And then I get a visual of, like, in these numbers, like, on a board, like 103, 104, 105, 201, 202. Like, there are countless lessons and just keeps going out, up into the thousands.

[00:15:26.944] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[00:15:27.044] Speaker 1: There is no end to the nuance and the study and fine grain control. Suffice to say, it is all consciousness. So that most of the magic is in, like, the interplay between simpler rules and what conscious actors-

[00:15:37.944] Speaker 2: Hmm

[00:15:38.084] Speaker 1: ... are doing. Um, and I use the metaphor of, like, ripples in a pond. You do one ripple, it's pretty simple. Circles just go out. You add two or three or five, now the patterns you can have get really, really complex, exponentially so. So even just adding a few more fundamental rules, like what we're doing now, makes the, the space of possibility really big. Um, so she kinda puts a hand up like, "All right, chill out." Like, there's other stuff than individual souls. Like, you don't need to know about that. Uh, but the more rules you add, the more complex it gets, and they explain

[00:16:13.004] Speaker 1: all the weirdness, like synchronicities and psi and UFOs and what time, all these other, like, weird phenomena. They're about-- They come from simpler rules often interacting with each other, uh, or the usage of those simpler rules. Um, so the complexity is in where these things meet. And so that's the end of the first part of, uh, like a three-part experience. It just starts with a simple visual of a frog and asking some basic questions. So here's, like, the first big rule is that every individual soul has their own entire reality, and it is all made up of them.

[00:16:47.904] Speaker 2: Hmm. One thing that came to mind is, have you heard this concept, Umwelt? Umwelt?

[00:16:59.924] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[00:17:00.064] Speaker 2: Yeah. So you see the frog from your perspective and through your perceptual apparatus. Uh, the frog is perceiving you through its perceptual apparatus. So you are a completely different thing based off of what light spectrum, sound spectrum, et cetera, that the frog is tuned to. That in alone is just, like, mind-blowing to me.

[00:17:28.144] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:29.584] Speaker 2: So that the universe is then represented... I, I mean, it also, I think, reinforces your point that, like, we humans are kind of studying the universe, breaking it down from a scientific materialist perspective, but that's all based off of human perceptual apparatus. Beginning to get into, like... Uh, and, and it's even just, it's even very recent that humans, uh, especially in scientific establishment, are beginning to accept that things besides humans are conscious. [chuckles] I mean, and that's a different

[00:18:04.364] Speaker 2: framing from we're even exploring here, where it's like s- starting with the assumption that everything is consciousness and made from consciousness. The materialist framing is like consciousness is a byproduct of material reality, you know, or like a, a, an epiphenomenon or a emergent property, right? You g- you get a brain that's complex enough and it becomes conscious. So that's, that's where my mind goes. And I, and I also like this idea of like the rippling, you know? It's like, um, [clears throat] you can build very complex structures from very simple patterns.

[00:18:39.120] Speaker 1: Yeah. So we're gonna introduce a few rules. Um, I think I should have mentioned at the beginning, like covering like reality 101, like the main point there was that it's all you, always. Everything you've ever interacted with, it's real, it's there, like you just said. Like I think that's the big trick is that physical reality is real. Like it's made out of atoms. The atoms are following like principles of physics to do stuff, right? And there are real patterns. It's actually there. But what we missed is that it's also made out of you. Like it is an expression of your soul. It is... You are composed of it. You are the desk as

[00:19:14.000] Speaker 1: much as you are the body. Now, there are differences between those two things, um, but they're all made out of you, and everything you've ever interacted with is just you. Uh, which lead, led to some... Led to the questions that begin to get answered in that first experience is like, how is that possible? How can I be literally the entire reality if there are other people in it? Well, they have their own copy. Imagine copy pasting, and they have their own, and they're at the center of it. And, uh, yours overlap, but you're only in theirs, like you appear to be in theirs. It, it's actually just them. They're interacting with themselves,

[00:19:49.020] Speaker 1: right? It's like moving around like a avatar or a puppet, a little body. Uh, so we'll get into some like follow-up questions later on, but those things are still true. Like this is an expansion of what was talked about before. Uh, she also made a point to say that this is not all there is. She did say that at the end, like you can like share this and tell people that this is true, because it is true, and it's demonstrable. It's just a fact. This is not opinion, as told to me, as relayed to me and shown to me. But it's not everything, hence the point about the emergent phenomena. There's more going on, right?

[00:20:24.040] Speaker 1: There's a lot of crazy stuff going on, and this is not going to answer every question, because there's infinite complexity. The more rules you add on and the more pieces you put in here, the more complex it gets. But these models are all true. Like this is true. It's just not everything. There's more to it than this. So if you see something that doesn't comport with this, that doesn't mean that these are false. In the same way that Newtonian physics does describe things pretty well, but it doesn't cover cases that, you know, you put something near a huge gravity source, like, well, okay, why is time different? And why is it behaving differently? Uh, because space and time are connected, and that's not

[00:20:59.100] Speaker 1: covered in Newtonian physics. It's correct, it's just not complete. So she's like, "Here are more correct rules, but not everything." So don't, don't lead people into believing that this is the full solution. That's not how it works. It's 102, basically. [chuckles] So I can get into the, the next experience. So this is the second of three. So this starts, so goes back to black. All right, so I've asked all these questions. I'm like, "I'm pretty excited at this point." I'm like, "Heck yeah." Like, "I got you on the line. I am gonna absolutely squeeze you for

[00:21:34.120] Speaker 1: every big question I've ever had related to this and how reality works." And so I do. And at some point, I guess she just decides that there's a pause in the con- moving on to the next lesson. There ain't no agenda. Ain't no, [chuckles] nobody... We're just, we're just doing it. I assume she show, showed up with a basic intention for I'm gonna give you some probably stuff that, I don't know, aliens are learning in grade school. It's, [chuckles] but whatever. So it's not like this is precious to other people. It's precious to us. Um-

[00:22:04.720] Speaker 2: Mm.

[00:22:05.880] Speaker 1: I... So goes back to black. Uh, I'm closing my eyes. The experience is very similar to Reality 101. Like the whole setup is the same. I feel barely connected to my body. I'm just paying attention to my imagination. And this rat shows up. It's a big old rat in my imagination, and it's just sitting there. [chuckles] And then she asks me, like, "Why is the rat there?" Uh, I don't know. [chuckles] She's like, "Because I suggested it." Right? And she's like, she goes on to say, "The only way

[00:22:40.920] Speaker 1: that anything could ever get into your reality is by suggestion." Like more or less, why can this thing be here if it's your reality? You didn't make this happen. So how did it get here? And I, "I suggested it to you." I'm like, "Okay. [chuckles] That's fascinating." Um, so we'll go on to what that means exactly later on, um, because there's like more explanation in the third one, which uses people. Um, but the gist is that this got here because I suggested it to you. You had an opening, and I pushed it in,

[00:23:16.500] Speaker 1: and now it's in your reality. It's still made out of you. It's still composed of you. Like this rat in your imagination is still you. And if the rat had been there physically, that would also still be me. So then she asks, "Why do you not see it physically though? Like you're seeing this in your imagination. Like why can I not just pop a rat right onto the floor?" And I'm like, "Okay. [chuckles] I don't know." So I'm asking questions back and forth, um, and what comes out of this, you know, it's sort of confusing for me. Uh, I, I need to resolve this. And here's the answer.

[00:23:51.580] Speaker 1: This is another fundamental rule. And the answer is in the term, it's the sequestered self in a bodily experience. There are sequestered layers of self, and they have different allegiances to you and different roles. So, uh, that's it. There are, there are layers to yourself. So it's not just that it's all uniform. You know, the table is the exact same thing as your body, your everything. That's obviously not true. Because in the very next scene, the rat jumps on my face and bites my face. [both chuckling] I freak out

[00:24:26.952] Speaker 1: and I like push it out, like mentally. Like I've done enough defense against the dark arts at this point when this happens that like I know how to pump this thing out of my, you know, imaginary field. Like, bye. It's just like waking up from a nightmare. It feels very similar. You know how it feels to push away thoughts or emotions and stuff. It's just like that. And she asks me, "Why didn't it hurt? [chuckles] Why did that not hurt you?" And I'm like... So we get into this back and forth, and what she ends up describing is that there are different layers of self, and they have like different

[00:25:01.772] Speaker 1: kinds of allegiance to you. So your body more or less obeys like your brain and your general intention to move it pretty directly, right? You can move it. If you want to move a cup or a piece of aluminum foil, that thing is like still made out of you, but it has a different kind of allegiance to you. It is like an operating system. Like, so if we use a computer metaphor, uh, you moving your body around is like moving like your World of Warcraft character, your avatar. It responds directly to your key presses. You wanna run, it runs. But you're like running a specialized program. The

[00:25:36.612] Speaker 1: computer can run almost anything. But the cup or the desk or the ball or the aluminum foil is much more like operating system level. It's at a different layer. Now, these are not necessarily like well-defined, perfect layers. Uh, we didn't get into that. It may be more gradient. That was not important to the discussion, but it's a way of thinking of it. It's a, a different kind of self, part of yourself. And it's more like the operating system, and it follows different kinds of rules. It doesn't matter how much you want to be able to fly if your video game character can't fly. Now, your

[00:26:11.312] Speaker 1: computer could render a game where your character can fly. It can also do Microsoft Excel. [chuckles] It can also do all sorts of things. It can manage files. Uh, but from your perspective in the game, like you can't do any of that, right? But those other parts of you are still you. You're also the operating system. You're also like the BIOS, the low-level stuff. Like you're all of that. You just didn't know it. You don't have awareness at those levels. You are generally only aware close to the center in the video game, basically, near your body, your thoughts and your emotions and stuff, imagination. Some of these things seep out into non-physical.

[00:26:47.052] Speaker 1: Um, but everything is you. You just didn't realize it. And then so I have this little tangent about like what about the rubber hand experiment? Are you familiar with that? So if you take a rubber hand that looks like your, your hand and you put it in your, a s- person's, uh, sleeve, or you have them move their hand down and you put it on the desk next to their other hand, and you hit that hand with a hammer-

[00:27:11.632] Speaker 2: Hmm

[00:27:11.832] Speaker 1: ... people will experience pain. Uh, they don't experience the same level of pain that they would experience if it were the actual hand, and there's no physical injury. So I ask about that. I'm like, "Okay, what the heck? [chuckles] Why does that hurt you then? How does that hurt you if they're just hitting a rubber hand?" And the answer is more or less that there are different kinds of layers, and they have like different roles. So what was hurting in that scenario was more like a psychological layer that was convinced that this was your hand. And so to its ability, greatest ability, it expressed pain and fear. But there are other parts of yourself, the rubber

[00:27:46.612] Speaker 1: hand itself is technically made out of you, but it, it's obeying lower level rules like physics. It's running the software of physics right now, and it doesn't give a crap about whether you feel like your hand got hurt. Not really. It's doing atoms [chuckles] and force, and it says nothing broke. And so you don't get the full experience as if your hand had actually broken and the nerves do their stuff. So you get some of it, but not all of it. This explains like some of the placebo effect. But it's weirder once you starting, start to get into psi and stuff, right? Because you really can

[00:28:21.552] Speaker 1: move a piece of aluminum foil, and the reason you can do it is da, da, da, da, it's you. [chuckles] You're moving yourself, right? That's why psi works. Like that's why remote viewing works. That's why levitation works. Any of this stuff, it only works because it's all you. Like you're just moving yourself. Like big whoop. Great job. We're all so proud of you. It's so simple once you like get this model. It's like, oh, okay. So you can lean on those layers, but they, they're pretty hardcore. Uh, you know, you can tilt the pinball machine, but some part of you is locked away

[00:28:57.192] Speaker 1: on running these programs that are loyal to running the rules of this part of reality, right? Somehow or another, you ended up here, whether you chose to or not, and you are running software. Part of you is like running the operating system, running the programs. Whether you agreed to it or not, it is loyal to running those programs. If you get hit by a bus, you will die, and it will dutifully render all of the pain and all of those atoms being scattered, uh, whether you want it to or not, because that part of yourself is loyal to running the software like according to the

[00:29:31.932] Speaker 1: rules that you have like opted into. Um, so that's how all these like different layers like interact with each other, and it can all still be you, and things that you don't want to happen can still happen to you because some part of you does want it. You may not be aware at that level consciously, but you can be. And if you could be, you could start to change things. So at this point, you know, the rat is gone. I'm basically just asking questions, right?

[00:29:59.532] Speaker 2: Hmm. Well, one, first thing that's on the top of my mind is know thyself and how, how like simple that phrase is, but like from this perspective, how deep it goes. 'Cause, you know, there's a perspective I'm familiar with doing like internal family systems work, you know, or just like understanding my own personality, uh- In terms of like parts, you know? There's like my inner child, there's my protector parts, there's-- And, uh, it's been really helpful for me to like engage with, uh, my own

[00:30:34.508] Speaker 2: psyche and, you know, subconscious processes through that medium. But then now there's, there's also this, like this feels like, um, there is also like, uh, maybe that, that's maybe more horizontal, like within my own psyche on this life, in this life.

[00:30:52.688] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:53.208] Speaker 2: Uh, but then there are these parts of me that are hor- like vertically o-oriented, like deeper, you know, or higher, you know? And I, I've been, been doing more practice now that, uh, revolves around like connecting with my higher self or my future self that are, that is really powerf- have been really powerful and transformative for me. Uh, but then also there's like these, these deeper parts that are more parts of myself that are then oriented towards like this reality or like, like you're saying, like these agreements I made when I'm

[00:31:28.108] Speaker 2: perhaps like before I entered this reality, like to, to sort of like opt into the rules of this reality. Uh, play the game as fully as I could [chuckles] in this life, in this context. Um, so that's all very fascinating. And, and then another image that came to mind when we were talking about the rat and the frog, um, and we're, we're sort of grappling with this idea like how, how am I my whole reality? How does, how is Steven his whole reality? Uh, and how are we having this conversation now and mutually creating a

[00:32:02.928] Speaker 2: reality together? How are we all in this together? Uh, and what he- what's helpful for me is understanding like this kind of-- And th- this has come through numerous, uh, [chuckles] high dose psychedelic experiences, uh, where like my ego dissolved so fully that I became, um, like this, what's this concept-- Like undifferentiated consciousness that's underneath the surface of self, you know? And, and then from that perspective, it's like, well, that's... It, it's like there's this clarity. And I talked some of the, about some of this my, in the last,

[00:32:38.828] Speaker 2: uh, episode we did, uh, [chuckles] LSD journey I did in, in the middle of summer. There's this clarity that like, oh, this is how things really are. We're all just one consciousness. It's all just ultimately one consciousness. So if I hold up my hand, you know, all of these fingers are part of this one hand, you know? Uh, but somehow, and, a-and you could think of like, oh, this finger's Steven, this finger's Joshua, this finger's the frog, this finger's the rat. Uh, somehow in our current reality, we live as if we're all

[00:33:14.048] Speaker 2: cut off from that source, you know, that, that fundamental awareness, primordial oneness, primordial I. You know? There's this like primordial subjective experience that is under the surface of everything, and then some- somehow like channels through atoms and bodies and eyeballs and then meets itself. [laughs] It's like looking back at itself, trying to understand itself maybe. And, uh, and maybe every one of these layers is kind of like a different, like your, the selves is kinda

[00:33:49.068] Speaker 2: like meeting at a different layer.

[00:33:50.568] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[00:33:50.708] Speaker 2: [chuckles]

[00:33:53.068] Speaker 1: I love that metaphor. What's weird is the, at the finger level, you're-- This is, yeah, we're gonna run with this one. That is, if you take that to be your whole soul, then it is its own copy of its own reality that has free will. But it is also a part of the hand, and so you're, it, both are true. It gets so trippy. You are an agent with complete free will who is completely self-sovereign over your entire reality.

[00:34:19.308] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:19.368] Speaker 1: You have an entire com- clean copy of it. You can do anything you want with it. It's all yours. The hand cannot make you do it. But at the same time, the hand is experiencing what you're experiencing, and it is, you are a part of it. Like you are directly a part of the whole thing. Like that is also true. It's weird that they can, it's like two sides of the same coin, like everything and nothing at the same time. They're both true. They're both equally true. It's bizarre.

[00:34:45.188] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:34:45.488] Speaker 1: And cool.

[00:34:45.828] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[00:34:46.948] Speaker 1: Kind of a good setup, honestly.

[00:34:48.008] Speaker 2: We also don't really understand where our thoughts come from, why we do the things we do, what set us on our life course, and even before our life. Like what... You know? So there's all these elements that come into play when we think we're making conscious decisions, you know? I feel like I'm more conscious now than I was, you know, seven years ago before I really began to do this really deep inner work and, you know, more meditation and, uh, psychedelics and therapy and, and stuff. I'm, I'm, I know myself so

[00:35:22.868] Speaker 2: much more, but then it also becomes the more I know, the less I know that I know. [chuckles] You know? Or the more questions I have, the more ignorant I'm, I realize I am.

[00:35:33.628] Speaker 1: That's a good sign. That's real-- I think it's a good sign.

[00:35:37.208] Speaker 2: Yeah. [chuckles] So but I thought I was conscious back then. I thought I was choosing the life I was le- leading to a, to a degree.

[00:35:45.928] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[00:35:45.948] Speaker 2: And I think I'm conscious and aware and making active choices now, but I can only imagine, you know, as I continue this path of inner exploration and growth, um, I'll probably look back at my life now and be like, "Ha, what did I know?" [laughs]

[00:36:01.828] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:02.108] Speaker 2: "Of my life now."

[00:36:05.228] Speaker 1: So when I say awareness, like there's a lot of kinds of awareness. I mean the most powerful kind being direct awareness rather than inferred or something like that. Imagine that somebody is sliding refrigerator magnets like through a slot. You're stuck in a tiny little room, and they give you ri- two numbers, and you have to add them together and write down the answer, right? And if you get it right, you get a cookie. All right? This is cool. You are aware of the numbers that are coming in through the slot, and you are doing that math and like, "I am aware of these numbers Direct awareness outside the box would show you that there is a conveyor belt of numbers coming in,

[00:36:40.718] Speaker 1: and you could just put the numbers in that you want, and you could just be all ones, and you could just get cookies for life without having to think anymore, uh, because you could control the numbers that are coming into the box now, right? Before, you had no awareness and no control over those things. You could infer it maybe. You could find patterns. You could work with the numbers to get good at addition. That's working on, like, the inner self. Psychological work, totally valid. Chemistry work, biochemistry, you need more sleep, totally valid. These are all, like... You can work within a layer of self, and it is totally appropriate to work there.

[00:37:15.858] Speaker 1: You don't have to say, "I'm the entire universe, and I'm gonna fix it all at the, like, pre-atom level." Sure, you don't have to manifest everything into fixing. Like, you can also just, like, take antibiotics if you're really [chuckles] sick. It's cool. You can fight it at the, you know, molecular biology level. Those rules are valid. The world is there. It's real. Like, it's, it's not fake. It's not imagined. Which we'll get into. So in the third scene, this answers, like, a lot of follow-up questions, um, that I had, which are, like, a lot of questions around

[00:37:50.898] Speaker 1: why can't you do whatever you want? Why are things happening? Why can people hurt me if I don't want them to? Like... And then it gets into how that direct awareness that I just talked about allows you to do more stuff. It's not just an awareness within a layer, which is like mastery. Like, you can be more aware of your own thoughts that are happening. That's a little bit different than, like, seeing literally where your thoughts come from and how they work, like, as if you could visualize yourself from the outside in, like, you know, like billiard balls knocking into each other. That's, like, much more mechanical. Um, so that's the kind of awareness that anyone would

[00:38:25.758] Speaker 1: like to get to, is to have the ability to, like, see, work with these forces on a more intuitive level, to, like, work with them at the operating system level inside instead of World of Warcraft, right? If you could, in theory, you know, or a local game, if you could hack your game to give yourself infinite money, that would be what we're talking about. Awareness of a lower level to go in and edit the config files tells you, "I don't have to work for this anymore. I can just go cheat." Um, and that's the kind of awareness that we're looking for. Not 'cause we have to, but we want to. So I wanna do that. So I'm the one who's posing this third scenario now. I'm like, "Okay, you've just given me

[00:39:00.818] Speaker 1: a whole lot of crap. Uh, [chuckles] all right. So hold up. I'm gonna ask you a bunch of questions because you're blowing my mind right now." And I say to her, "There are two people in a room." I kinda show a visual. "Person A and Person B. Why does Person A see Person B? If it's all you, like, why are they in your world at all? Like, how can they be there? How are they allowed to be there?" Um, and so you make your own reality, and I want to know why you're not forever alone. If it's all you, like, how did they get to be there? Like, I don't, I don't understand. She goes on to describe being opened or

[00:39:35.718] Speaker 1: closed. So allowance or non-allowance, similar idea. And describing the principle of existence by permission. The reason that anything happens to you is because you allow it. You gotta sort of take a step back here because I've never liked the rhetoric that like, oh, you know, your kid got murdered or run over by a car because you allowed it. Like, that's not what we're talking about. Remember that if you are running a physical simulation that is reliable, uh, if your, your kid got hit by a bus or something like that, that happened for the bus driver too, most likely. You know,

[00:40:10.518] Speaker 1: hand-waving, time, other weird factors. We're not talking about that right now. Generally speaking, in this case, like, that happened. It happened for them, and it happened for you. So functionally, it happened in both of your universes, right? In about the same way. Generally speaking, because the lower level is faithful to its rules, right? You didn't allow... You didn't want it to happen. But some part of you isn't paying attention to the storyline of you having a kid and a body and all that. All it's, it's... You can call it dumber, but it's not dumb. It's just following the rules. I'm a cup. I'm being a cup. I'm doing gravity

[00:40:45.498] Speaker 1: like you told me to. I'm doing physics like you told me to. Like, and you're not even aware. But if you were able to be ala- aware on those lower levels, then you could directly change what you allow or not allow. And so this whole principle, the nice part is you can actually influence those levels even if you can't do whatever you want. Like, physical reality is slow. It's like at the end of a pipeline. So my understanding of it is that imagination is always also real. It's just a different space with different properties. It's yours, also part of your reality. But it's like a

[00:41:20.418] Speaker 1: kinda temporary, like maybe play space, right? Stuff is ephemeral. It's light. Um, you can play with ideas. But there's like a pipeline from imagination to physical reality, and this explains like how manifestation works is that you can imagine by creating things. And so here's the follow-up principle. The idea is that there is only opening and closing, right? You're either closed to an aspect of reality. I am closed to, you know, believing something can happen to me or not, right? So take it to the level of manifestation where it makes a little more sense for most

[00:41:55.458] Speaker 1: people. I really, really want, you know, to get this job offer, right? You are open to that or you're closed to it. You don't believe you're gonna get it. You're leaning on the probability space, basically. You're leaning on the actual, like, things that can happen to you. You're tilting the, the odds, uh, so to speak. I couldn't say that it's chance, but you're bringing it into existence through your beliefs and through imagination. Like, you're fueling this thing. And that is because you can actually lean on these layers, but it's a little slower because the physical world's kinda heavy. It's got momentum. These rules are kinda rigid. But

[00:42:30.498] Speaker 1: it's just you. So there's a loophole. The loophole is it's just you, and it does respond a little bit. to your intention, right? So you can't have whatever you want. I can't just make a block of gold appear right away 'cause I'm not at the level of direct awareness where I can just control atoms because I, I am them. Uh, you would control them like you move your hand. If somebody-- If you lived in a world where people had arms but didn't know how to use them, and you were just waving your arms around, "You're all finger rich. Look at me," they'd be like, "How the hell do you do that? Those things don't do anything." And you're like, "I don't know. I just move them." Like, it would be like that if you had direct control over, like, physical matter.

[00:43:05.586] Speaker 1: You would just be able to move it intuitively. You would make it do what you want in the same way you can make a block of gold appear in your imagination. Is it hard? No, it's super easy. You're just like, "Gold. There it is." Like, you would be able to do that too if you had this level of direct awareness. And the things that happen to you happen because you're open to them, whether you know it or not, and that's at every level, psychological, emotional. Like, all these different pieces of yourself are all open or closed to things. So they're-- I am open to the other people walking around in my world talking to

[00:43:41.386] Speaker 1: me, and so they can, right? They can talk about whatever they want. They can even punch me because there are layers of myself, psychologically, emotionally, beliefs, like physically, the physical part of the world, that are-- that expect other people to be able to walk around and be here and do stuff, including even hurt me. And so all of these things, it's like an open port, or it's like an open aperture. Something can come through. Can, you know, I get this job offer or not is dependent on whether some or all of my parts of self want it-

[00:44:13.466] Speaker 2: Hmm

[00:44:13.526] Speaker 1: ... even for this to be possible or not. So I'll pause there because there are other-- There's like a follow-up idea, uh-

[00:44:20.146] Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah

[00:44:20.466] Speaker 1: ... at this point. But I wanna see if you got anything.

[00:44:22.786] Speaker 2: I got some notes. [chuckles] Yeah, this is all interesting. Um, hmm, where to start? Um, have you heard of the river Lethe, Lethe, Lethe, Lethe? It's like this idea, or it's-- I think it's the-- We-- In Greek mythology, I'll have to, I'll have to check this, and people are probably like, "Oh, he's getting it totally wrong." But, uh, there's this idea that when we come into this life, we drink from the river Lethe, and it's the river of forgetting. And so we forget, you know, our

[00:44:58.066] Speaker 2: broader awareness, you know, the awareness that, uh, persists across lifetimes, uh, in order to come into this reality and be completely embedded within this reality, comp- to completely be a, um, a player in this, uh, reality, this physical instantiation. Um, and some people remember their past lives. You know, some people-- There's quite well documented-- Uh, it's, it's, it's very well

[00:45:33.026] Speaker 2: documented that, um, many children can remember past life experiences. Um, but it would just be so confusing, right? 'Cause we're-- Uh, this life is already so full, and this, uh, perceptual apparatus already so, [chuckles] uh, focused on this level of reality that to put other information in would just totally, like-- It'd just be confusing. You'd probably have a psychotic episode. It'd be hard to, like, really integrate a self

[00:46:08.006] Speaker 2: that is so expansive while we're remaining focused on this, in this plane during this period of time. Uh, so that's one thought that came up, uh, why we might not remember that we made certain decisions. Uh, and then a-also, like it's-- The, uh, uh, the reincarnation framework really help, helps me understand some of these thing, these things as well. And like, you know, and karma and things like that, like why certain things happen to us or why, you know, some certain patterns k- seem to keep repeating.

[00:46:43.946] Speaker 2: Uh, and it's because there's a certain reason that we were born or that we chose to be born into this life, uh, to learn certain things, to experience certain things. Um, and-- Or to have just, yeah, just have certain kinds of experiences to enhance our soul, to deepen our, you know, that, that, that wellspring that we're s- that we're coming from, um, the deeper soul, the deeper self, I guess. And, uh, and then when we die, you know, we remember. You know? [chuckles] It's like an ego death, like in

[00:47:18.766] Speaker 2: psychedelic experiences. Um, I often have this experience like, of like, you know, my ego dissolving, maybe like a deeper sense of my physical body, but there's like this energetic, you know, sort of awareness that comes online. And it's like, uh, just this really expansive state. And it's like, "Oh, this is who I am. Why do I keep forgetting?" But then when the medicine wears off and I congeal back into this, uh, the self and, uh, and I forget. You know, I can, I can remember snippets or I

[00:47:53.646] Speaker 2: remember, like, I can describe what it was like, but I'm not in it. You know, if I was, if I had my, um, apertures fully open all the time like that, I would not be functional. You know? Like, it's a-- I wouldn't be able to cross a street or make my breakfast, you know? [chuckles] Like, take a shower, like do all the, it's, this-- I definitely wouldn't be able to take care of my kids [chuckles] if I was always in that state. Um, so that's where my mind goes with some of that stuff. And then I'll, and then another thing... Yeah, it would also, it would, like,

[00:48:28.706] Speaker 2: I, I think it would be really cool to be able to just be like, [snaps finger] bar of gold, clunk, you know? Like a, a wizard, right? Or to have these kinda like-- I, I mean, I've, I've always been fascinated with the yogic superpowers, the siddhis. And, uh, you know, like to fly, and there's like, there's just stories of like really incredible things that people who have been, you know, practicing knowing themselves in the yogic traditions very deeply are able to accomplish. Um, flying, shooting fire out of their hands, walking on

[00:49:03.402] Speaker 2: walls, you know, and, and more, you know, telepathy, telekinesis, all these kinds of things. Uh, but imagine if like a two-year-old could do that. [laughs]

[00:49:14.562] Speaker 1: Imagine.

[00:49:14.962] Speaker 2: You know, or like, or just any, uh, everyone, like our reality would just be totally ca- total chaos and wouldn't, we wouldn't be able to live and work together at all. So there has to be like, there has to be something, you know? Like maybe collectively we're evolving towards a place where we have more of those capacities, uh, as like a baseline. But, uh, it takes time and evolution and maturity to get to the point where we can all kind of like live in a reality that is so malleable

[00:49:50.082] Speaker 2: like that.

[00:49:52.022] Speaker 1: Dude, you hit the nail on the head, uh, 'cause that's my understanding as well. So this is not relayed to me, but like, uh, it just follows, right? Uh, this is just inference. Like what a beautiful design. Like this isn't a prison. You're not able to not make a block of gold or food for your starving child appear because, you know, the, this sort of living conscious universe doesn't care. It's because there are implications to being able to do that. Like if everyone believed that, you know, 2020, '12, the world's gonna blow up, it would literally blow up. Like if everyone believes this virus is gonna kill everyone, it's gonna kill

[00:50:26.982] Speaker 1: everyone. Like there are downsides to having malleable control-

[00:50:31.102] Speaker 2: Hmm

[00:50:31.122] Speaker 1: ... over your reality if you don't know what you're doing. You are like a two-year-old with like immense power. Like that could be bad unless you were at a degree of like control and like wisdom and like care to like not destroy yourself and not understand what was happening to you. Like in the same way you don't get, let children drive cars, not because we don't like kids or we don't like them to go fast, but because we don't want them to destroy things and hurt themselves. It's not-

[00:50:58.182] Speaker 2: Yeah

[00:50:58.282] Speaker 1: ... kind to let them do that. Or you don't, you put a baby gate on the stairs, not because stairs aren't useful, uh, and we don't want babies to have stairs, but because it wouldn't be good. They would hurt themselves and others. Like it, it's not good. So it's, my, my feeling is that obviously this looks like a progression system. Like this is why being kind to others and like resolving your problems, stop judging, like that is why you get more power. It's because you're just by like an inherent design, at least of our portion of reality space, the more

[00:51:33.202] Speaker 1: responsible you are, the more power and awareness you can have, right? It just follows, right? We know you're probably gonna be a good actor with it, right? But you're also gonna be with other people who have the same level of power, right? So if I want to make a block of uranium appear, that's gonna kill everyone in the room, uh, at some point. But if everyone else in the room is also aware that they're immortal and they can't die and can control their own reality, they just snap it away and go, "What the hell are you doing, dude? What was that for?" [chuckles] Right? It, but it's a big deal if everyone else in the room can't do that. Now you're a god and you're a

[00:52:08.042] Speaker 1: tyrant, and you're killing people. Like there's a big difference, right? You can't be playing at that level because the obvious consequence is you'll wreck stuff, including yourself. So it's gotta be doled out, uh, commiserate with not hurting yourself, uh, and others, like as you're ready for it.

[00:52:25.342] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[00:52:25.482] Speaker 1: And so the awareness precedes control. But this explains the Siddhi superpowers that you just described, and how do they talk about doing it in like the Yoga Sutras? Like you basically just stare at something or a concept long enough that you realize that you are it, and then you forget that there's any difference between you, and then somehow you just get direct control over it intuitively and easily. It just happens. Like you can just do it in the same way you move your arm. You can do stuff now because they just like pierced it. It's like, and why can they do that? Because it's also just them. Uh, they've sort of hacked another

[00:53:00.261] Speaker 1: layer without realizing what they were doing necessarily. They have words for it, and they, it's kind of similar. They were close, but this is a more like concise model for how that works, is they're, they're piercing through another layer and directly controlling it like you control your arm, because it's just you. There is no difference, and that's why you can do those things is you can kind of like brute force it, right? If you're determined enough, even while you're still here. It's not-- All rules are soft rules. It is your reality. Uh, like there's only a few hard rules, and that's one of them. So you can, to an extent, break the game.

[00:53:35.882] Speaker 1: Uh, I don't know what happens. I think when enough people start doing that, I think it changes the game. I think you end up like-

[00:53:42.942] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

[00:53:43.062] Speaker 1: ... being moved out, right? I think we're seeing that now. Uh, you can see a bunch of psi powers and like UFO phenomena. Weird stuff is happening. Like it's-

[00:53:51.342] Speaker 2: Yeah

[00:53:51.542] Speaker 1: ... the veil feels a little thin.

[00:53:53.322] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[00:53:53.602] Speaker 1: I think that's because more people are doing this. Like it collectively affects us all. Like you ki- you all kind of get upgraded more or less to a degree as a group, 'cause we're all connected. So I think that that's what's happening. That's my inference, right? There's a little bit more to this direct experience, but I mean, that's what I would follow up with. Like that was what I got out of it.

[00:54:14.902] Speaker 2: Uh, that's, that's a great setup for this curveball question I was gonna throw you, um, which is this, 'cause you mentioned that imagination is a space, and now physical real- and physical reality is its own kind of space. But as these abilities develop more, and as more and more people begin to develop them, then the physical reality begins to look more like imagination, you know? So is it like we're all, we're just in these, this nested reality where like what was once imagination was at some p- point in the very, very distant past a physical layer, and maybe there was an

[00:54:49.522] Speaker 2: imagination

[00:54:53.892] Speaker 1: So they are not separate. There is no wall between your imagination and physical reality. It's a continuum.

[00:55:01.132] Speaker 2: Okay.

[00:55:01.912] Speaker 1: Um, but yeah, and so in other places that are non-physical, they're much closer to the imagination space, right? It's very fluid, and it acts like that. But that stuff is real, yo. Like, it's a table. It's a table as much as it is a table in the physical world. It's just like, it's fast and loose, baby. You can make it a snake now. Now it's a snake. [chuckles] You can do whatever you want. There's still atoms, and there's still rules, but even those are malleable too. So this is, like, at another end of a spectrum for stability and, like, enforcement. But ultimately, it is the same thing. There is no disconnection. Like, there's a smooth, uh, space between them.

[00:55:37.372] Speaker 1: That is a great segue because that-- This is, like, the last point, which is, like, opening and closing. Like, closing is not bad. Closing to an idea is, is good. Like, I wanna be closed to, like, entering abusive, like, relationships when I'm looking for a new partner, right? That makes it, like, extremely unlikely to happen. And if you had complete control over your reality because you were, you know, some hyper-advanced consciousness, then you could literally make it impossible, uh, for an abusive person to enter your life. They just never would. Just events would conspire, synchronicity, to make sure it never

[00:56:12.392] Speaker 1: happens. I-- Because you're completely closed to it. Um, so you can be partially open or closed to different aspects of things. And being closed to stuff isn't bad. And what was described to me is that it allows you to create. So you close to create on your own. Like, if I'm closed off to something, now I have a blank canvas with which to create. Um, uh, so I'm closing off to the other people pouring their ideas, thoughts through culture, through peer pressure, through, uh, literal thought fields or emotional fields or whatever, right? I'm closing off to that so that I can create my own

[00:56:47.212] Speaker 1: stuff from whole cloth, right? Uh, that's what it allows you... When you close to things, now you can create. But when you're open, you're allowing other people to pour in their creations, right? Writing on your canvas, basically, is what they're doing, and that's how it works. So it's this push-pull. That's all there is, is opening and closing. Like, all of the reality exists by permission at these different layers. Whether or not you are aware that you are these other pieces, they're still there, and they're still doing their job. They don't requi- Like, your body doesn't require your conscious awareness to pump blood. It just does it. It kind of does it whether you want it to or not. Like,

[00:57:22.312] Speaker 1: it's like that. Uh, similar idea, but that extends well beyond your physical body into everything. And if you knew how, just by being open or closed with just intention, literally just your beliefs, your intentions, your thoughts, your emotions, you could change anything that happens. And I mean, this is the, like, the real magic is that this is why manifestation and attention are so important, is they are like the lever by which you can start to pry this stuff open. Uh, because you can intend to change. You can intend to have more ability and more awareness. You can intend to be a better person. [chuckles] You can... That becomes a

[00:57:57.312] Speaker 1: lever that gives you a bigger lever that creates a multiplicative effect, which is how consciousness development can happen in a practical sense. Saying nothing about religious or spiritual, like, meanings, just like the mechanics, the metaphysical mechanics of it. You intend to have experiences. You intend to be more aware. You intend to have more direct control. You intend to be able to move a piece of tin foil. And eventually, you get good at it, and then you see it work, or you see somebody else do it, and you believe it. Or you're around each other, and it becomes more easy because they all believe it's possible.

[00:58:29.112] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:29.332] Speaker 1: All these effects happen. Other people culturally being open to this idea makes it possible for someone on the other side of the planet who didn't realize that, it's easier for them to move the tin foil now. Uh, like, because there's a lot of forces at different layers, so you can be open or closed to different layers, and that that is what controls what happens. Um, and so whether you know it or not, you, these-- it's all you in different pieces. And whether those pieces are open, whether it's psychological or emotional or physical, if you knew how, that controls what happens or doesn't happen.

[00:59:04.312] Speaker 1: And there is no consensus mechanism. This was, like, the last idea. If Person A and Person B, and then we'll just ask whatever you want. Person A and Person B see an apple on the table. I fielded this question. If I want an apple to be there and I have perfect control over it, I have to explore the edge cases, man. This is like, okay, you're giving me all this crap. I'm, like, dead tired now. I'm running on fumes, but I need to know 'cause this still doesn't make sense to me. Let's say we both have perfect control over our reality. We're gurus. We get it. If I want an apple on the table and you don't want an apple on the table-

[00:59:35.392] Speaker 2: Hmm

[00:59:35.412] Speaker 1: ... what happens? Like, because now I can get it. Like, you're more powerful. You can make stuff happen. I can't stop you 'cause I'm less aware. Cool. That makes sense to me. But what happens when we're equally matched? Which one happens? And she responds with, quote, "There is no consensus mechanism. It is your, always your reality. You are the consensus mechanism." And so the last two sentences are paraphrased, but there is no consensus mechanism. What's the tiebreaker? There's no tiebreaker. They both happen. In their reality, there's no apple. In your reality, there is an apple. That's

[01:00:10.432] Speaker 1: it. That's how it works. And I'm like, "Ugh." So this is when, like, the copy-paste, like, no, no, like, literally, you're in your own world here, buddy. It is all yours. Uh, that's when this really starts to come into play is when there's differences. Now you begin to see the incredible importance of who you associate with, what you believe, [chuckles] what you want, what you don't want, what you're afraid of. What you're afraid of creates something in the same way that wanting it does.

[01:00:38.252] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[01:00:38.452] Speaker 1: Uh, because that's just how it works. It's a separate thing if you're familiar with the law of one or whatever. That's the law of confusion. So repelling something actually opens you up to it. So there's all these weird edge cases.

[01:00:49.512] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:00:49.632] Speaker 1: The more afraid you are of something, you can-- People talk about being jinx, jinxing something or whatever. Like, this is why this happens. You're terrified of it happening, and then it happens. Like, well, you made it happen because you're feeding it with all this fear and attention and belief that it could happen to you.

[01:01:03.612] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[01:01:03.672] Speaker 1: It's the belief that it could happen Or that it will happen to you. Not whether you want it or not that changes it. And that, that seems cruel, but once you understand that, like, okay, it's actually neutrality, complete indifference that closes you off to something. Like, "Nope, I don't believe this." Now, it's not perfect, because a car will still hit you even if you believe it will never happen. It may ma- like, make it less likely to use the psychological and emotional layers of self to believe something will never happen. You got levers on those layers, but that physics is-- That car is still gonna hit you, uh, because you haven't...

[01:01:38.992] Speaker 1: You can lean on the physical layer with those things. You can alter them, but it's slow. Like, that pipeline from imagination or whatever to non-physical stuff to physical, it's still real, but it's not instantaneous, and you can't just, like, change physics unless you're sufficiently strong, because those layers of self have a bigger lever, and they, they don't care what you want right now, because that's the kind of world we live in right now. They're not hard rules, right? It's just server settings.

[01:02:08.032] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[01:02:09.372] Speaker 1: So there you have it. This is-

[01:02:10.932] Speaker 2: Hmm

[01:02:10.932] Speaker 1: ... more or less the end of the experience. You know, I ask some odd one-off questions about other things, but that's the, the general idea.

[01:02:20.652] Speaker 2: I love your, uh, thought experiment about the two gurus. [chuckles]

[01:02:25.292] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:26.292] Speaker 2: And it's like this, this battle of wills or, you know, whose, whose consciousness is stronger, and it's like, well, if they're evenly matched, then-

[01:02:33.652] Speaker 1: They both win

[01:02:34.812] Speaker 2: ... it, it makes me, makes me think of like the, this like multiverse theory that, um, a new universe spawns every time a choice is made or a significant choice-

[01:02:46.192] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

[01:02:46.712] Speaker 2: ... or so it's just like there's an infinite number of universes 'cause they're all just like constantly spawning out. So in that case, it's like, well, uh, you were stronger. You know? You were the guru who was stronger, and in that, in the universe that you continue to live off into, you're, you're victorious. But I don't know. I'm not, I'm not satisfied with that, 'cause like you, your thought experiment is like they're evenly matched. It should be like... [chuckles]

[01:03:18.492] Speaker 1: So what happens? They both get-- They both win. In one-- They both feel like they won. "Ha ha, no apple. You lose." Now-

[01:03:25.392] Speaker 2: But then they spawn off into univer- It's like Rick and, Rick and Morty, right? Like there's-

[01:03:29.212] Speaker 1: Yes

[01:03:29.212] Speaker 2: ... the Rickest Rick, right? There's a universe-

[01:03:31.152] Speaker 1: Yeah

[01:03:31.152] Speaker 2: ... where, uh, you know, Rick Sanchez is like the most Rick amongst all the Ricks in all the mul- the multiverse, right?

[01:03:38.292] Speaker 1: You found the crack.

[01:03:38.592] Speaker 2: But then you split, you split off, and your, your, your double, who's like evenly matched with you, is now in a completely different universe that you can't access. [chuckles]

[01:03:48.212] Speaker 1: I wouldn't say you couldn't access. This is where it gets weird. So this question is not answered, right?

[01:03:54.292] Speaker 2: Okay.

[01:03:54.332] Speaker 1: So I have this follow-up question like later on once I've done some thinking on this, this exact question. Okay, so this makes sense. I-- In my world, there's no apple. In your world, there's an apple. But you're still in my world, and you definitely wanted the apple. Are you conscious, or are you now an NPC? Like what happened?

[01:04:11.332] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:04:11.372] Speaker 1: Are you still here, or is it now just a puppet? Like... And are you li- how are you living in a world where there is an apple? But you won. You have complete control. So how did you end up in a world that doesn't have one? 'Cause from my perspective, you're still here. How did that happen? This is like a contradiction. It isn't explained. Now, I will say like off the record in a later experience-

[01:04:30.892] Speaker 2: That's reality one thousand twelve hundred and-

[01:04:32.772] Speaker 1: Yeah, this is... Remember, these are just, it doesn't explain everything

[01:04:34.952] Speaker 2: ... twelve hundred and five.

[01:04:35.072] Speaker 1: Now you're talking about the edge case. She told me right at the beginning like, "Listen, this doesn't cover everything. There are things that this doesn't explain. Like there's more. Like I'm giving you like the next level. There is more. The, the numbers keep going up."

[01:04:48.192] Speaker 2: Okay.

[01:04:48.672] Speaker 1: Just because I don't want people to have to wait. I got a hint at this.

[01:04:52.112] Speaker 2: Oh.

[01:04:52.452] Speaker 1: It's weird.

[01:04:53.592] Speaker 2: Yeah.

[01:04:53.652] Speaker 1: It's weird, and it made me uncomfortable.

[01:04:55.972] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[01:04:56.192] Speaker 1: But it's not like bad. I don't have it with high confidence though. This is high con- This was shown like in a pretty profound experience, and I have lived it and it feels true. So I personally ascribe to this. Whatever anyone else believes about whether this is true or not, I personally ascribe to it and have validated it myself. Not only was it direct and profound, but it comports with my experience and test it. This slight addendum that I am adding to address this caveat, like what the hell happens to the person who doesn't want to be in the apple universe? How is he still in my world?

[01:05:31.592] Speaker 1: Like what, is he conscious? Is he a zombie now? Like what happened to him? The answer was weird, and I... It's much lower confidence. My understanding was led to believe is that they are in that world too. But they are like a fingernail. They're not feeling. Like you're s- they're sampling from the same person. Their consciousness isn't there. Everything about them, like how they would react, their intelligence, their body, everything like is being... You could say it's an NPC, like they are there. It's

[01:06:06.432] Speaker 1: them. But they're not totally conscious, right? They're, it's not in their awareness in the same way that being a desk isn't in your awareness now. Um, so some part of you is like, uh, off dutifully helping other people live in the world that you didn't wanna live in as yourself, being miserable. But you're not there. So the quantum universe, the Everettian interpretation where it keeps splitting at every opportunity, I don't know, man. That could be true still. It's just that you're not in those worlds. You're not in the world where you get tortured eternally. Like who would want to? Who would wanna be there? It is happening. It's just, it's like numb. It's like it's happening, but nobody's-- The

[01:06:41.472] Speaker 1: lights aren't home, on. Like nobody's home.

[01:06:43.532] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[01:06:43.552] Speaker 1: There's a home, but no, the lights aren't on. Nobody's actually in there feeling it because you don't want to. Your consciousness is where it wants to be. Uh, that was my understanding of the follow-up, which would come a month or so after that. But I hold that with much lower confidence, and it's pretty-

[01:06:59.612] Speaker 2: Yeah

[01:06:59.932] Speaker 1: ... freaking weird. [chuckles]

[01:07:01.852] Speaker 2: That's... Something in me like kind of rebels against that idea.

[01:07:06.032] Speaker 1: I don't like it. And even as-

[01:07:07.392] Speaker 2: Yeah

[01:07:07.392] Speaker 1: ... I say it now, I feel bad, which means I think I have some of it wrong.

[01:07:10.092] Speaker 2: 'Cause then it's like all, you're like in a universe full of fingernails. Like you're full of-

[01:07:15.492] Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense

[01:07:16.092] Speaker 2: ... it's all your world. And, and I think it does, it contrasts with what you're, you know, the foundation you laid earlier on, you know, where we're both, you know, two fully conscious beings are in this reality together. It's like, uh, at some point something happens and then that fully conscious being splits off. It means at some point you're the only conscious being in this world. So that, that contrasts with what you're saying. Uh-

[01:07:42.360] Speaker 1: Right. That would be the implications of if you can't play nice with other people-

[01:07:45.680] Speaker 2: Yeah

[01:07:45.780] Speaker 1: ... and they don't want you in their world and everyone has punted you out, you're living in a world of automatons, whether you realized it or not, because-

[01:07:52.540] Speaker 2: Hmm

[01:07:52.720] Speaker 1: ... nobody else is open to you anymore. They've all closed off to you [laughs] because you're being a bad boy or girl. And then, uh, or you're only associating with other either low awareness people who can't stop you, uh, including you, right? It doesn't mean that you're better than them. It just means that you're all just, you know-

[01:08:08.360] Speaker 2: Hmm

[01:08:08.440] Speaker 1: ... fighting in the mud 'cause you don't know better. Or they've left and you're no longer in their world or they're not in yours anymore. That doesn't mean it couldn't be changed or that there aren't underlying unifying layers that always make you, like, connected. That is always true. You're never totally cut off from everybody. But if you wanna be off on your own, like truly alone and closed off to everyone else, like, or close to it, you could have complete control over everything with no input from anybody else. But also you would be sock puppeting all the time.

[01:08:39.280] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:39.340] Speaker 1: Right? This is the, this is the dance. You want people in your, in your server, you gotta be nice. You gotta, or you have to agree on consense- we all agree on physics, right? And that's so we can coexist with each other.

[01:08:49.120] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[01:08:49.160] Speaker 1: You don't get to fly and shoot lasers because I, I don't either, right? That's, so it's a leveling mechanism. We adhered, we bound ourselves up by some of these rules so that we could interact with each other, even if we don't like each other. So I think there are protocols and stuff like that that bind us together and make this, in principle, you know, not really an edge case. Like, it's not as big of a deal. Uh, but I have much less confidence in this, like, explanation, and that was, like, given to me with some pretty low-grade telepathy, and I could have misunderstood it. So I don't know.

[01:09:22.500] Speaker 2: [laughs]

[01:09:23.720] Speaker 1: But there is an answer to what happens to-

[01:09:27.260] Speaker 2: Yeah

[01:09:27.260] Speaker 1: ... a person, a human person to be.

[01:09:28.059] Speaker 2: Maybe we'll get the follow-up, uh, an- answer at a, at a-

[01:09:31.980] Speaker 1: Yeah

[01:09:31.980] Speaker 2: ... future lecture. [laughs]

[01:09:33.400] Speaker 1: Yeah.

[01:09:33.600] Speaker 2: Just put the intention out.

[01:09:35.480] Speaker 1: Yeah. That's how you do it. But anyway, that's the whole deal. That's the rules of a multiplayer reality and how we can all exist together. I, again, take with a shaker of salt what happens in these collision cases. I don't know. Uh, I have some hunches informed by some other later stuff, but it feels off, right?

[01:09:53.660] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:53.680] Speaker 1: But this, you know, the original stuff is, like, I'm certain, I am personally certain about it, and I believe it's testable, and it comports with, and is totally fine with physics and chemistry. All those things are still real. It's just you. You're the chemicals that you're mixing together. [laughs] You're the body. You're also the body, but you're also the chair, the table, your spirit, your imagination, your thoughts and emotions. You're the stuff that is coming. You're all that stuff. It's all coming out of you, your soul, basically, as an expression.

[01:10:25.500] Speaker 2: Hmm.

[01:10:26.580] Speaker 1: So that's what I learned.

[01:10:29.580] Speaker 2: Cool. Well, enjoyed this conversation. This is, uh, this is some food for thought. [laughs] Fascinating.

[01:10:36.540] Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta, you gotta stop eating. [gentle music]

[01:10:51.120] Speaker 2: This is Reality 101. Until next time.

[01:10:55.120] Speaker 1: Nothing is impossible, you're not going to die, and everything loves you. [gentle music]