{"language_code":"eng","language_probability":0.9681469798088074,"text":"[gentle music] Reality 101 is a journal of impossible experiences, from first-hand explorations into the nature of reality, what it means for all of us, and how you can experience it for yourself. I'm Stephen Trumbek. And I'm Joshua Swenson. This episode of Reality 101 is part three of See, Wake Up, Remember. We're finishing our conversation on the topic of direct non-dual realization, what it implies about how reality works, and why this matters at all beyond a neat experience. Uh, but before we dive in on that topic, we like to check in, so I'm wondering how you're arriving today, Stephen. I'm arriving pretty good. I'm, I'm always excited to, to chat, uh, and to share, you know, what I've learned, what, what we've learned. Um, I'm coming off a weird experience, uh, yesterday, where I, uh, talked to my past self [chuckles] in a liminal state, like right before I chose to come here. Uh, like right before making the decision to live a hu- live a human life here, which is- Mm ... profound and weird and pretty emotional. Uh, pretty strange. Uh, if you guys are new to those ideas, that's what you can do. Time isn't a thing. You can talk to your past self or future self. Um, but yeah, uh, maybe we'll get into that another time, but that's how I'm arriving. It's like, dang, uh, the weight of meaning [chuckles] feels. I got, I got big feels, but I'm happy. Mm. Um, so how are you? Oh, that's cool. Um, thanks for sharing that. Um, yeah, I'm feeling a little lower energy, lower mood. Um, and uh, yeah, just in a little bit of a transitional phase. Hap- often happens in the summer. Feel like I go through a period of unraveling and inner exploration and holding open for what wants to emerge through me. And uh, just this morning, there was this interesting [chuckles]... I, I feel like synchronicities often, uh, around birds happen to me. I had one a couple months ago about hummingbirds, and this time, uh, it's always crazy getting my kids ready to go out the door and, uh, something shifted. I was able to connect with my daughter and, uh, just transmute her grumpy energy into excited energy. And they open the door and, um, this hawk takes off. It was right, sitting right on our, uh, we live in a fifth floor apartment, and it was on the floor kind of like 10, 15 feet away from our door, and it was feasting on a pigeon. [chuckles] So it's just like we just get a glimpse of it flying off, holding the pigeon and, uh, and uh, yeah, then there's like blood and feathers everywhere and, uh, some of the feed that was in the pigeon's stomach. Um, so that was just a, that's just, I don't know. I just, I don't know what to make of that, but it was, those kind of things happen and they just, I'm just like, uh, I, I choose to s- to experience this mundane reality more like a dream, you know, laden with symbolism and meaning. And so, uh, I think I'll have to sit with that for a little bit. But yeah, that's how I'm arriving today, a little bit in a, a quandary and, uh, yeah, excited for this conversation and to, uh, see how it unfolds. I, I listened back on the, our last recording. It's been a little while, and that, well, that conversation went really deep, and there was a lot of really profound, uh, things that came through there. So yeah, I'm curious if you have a, if you have anywhere you'd like to, to pick up, 'cause I know we wanna just like give some space today for discussing the implications of that last, uh, experience. Maybe a recap, you know? Yeah. Maybe just a short recap if you'd like to give it. Yeah, the short recap. This is the part three that was supposed to be a one part episode. [chuckles] Yeah. [chuckles] But it was meant to be like one arc, you know, just pulling one thread of some of the experiences that I've had, uh, which, you know, getting the repeated instructions to see, wake up, and remember, and really leaning into that in meditation, throughout waking life, like just feeding this belief like a bonfire. And all the places it led to various perspectives that were weird, right? They were, they're all valid, but they're all, they were much different than our regular waking life, for me anyway. Um, you know, I've- don't have extensive psychedelic experience, so for me, uh, you know, the depths of meditation was as non-dual as it got. But these were, I was like, I was giving a, getting a tour of like various perspectives that were all still me. And of course, this applies to, to anyone, any individual soul, um, that you all have these valid perspectives as well. And it ended, ended, air quotes, as if we're ever done, uh, with really a bizarre f- I think you mentioned like fireworks experience in pre-planning this episode, where just a whole bunch of stuff, just symbols and all sorts of 3D imagery. It looked like music visualization. It was truly wild 'cause I was sober and kind of in a bad mood, just watching it all play out in the visual field. And it was, it was wild, and I think right after that happened, I got the verbal thought, uh, \"Stephen, I hope you believe in miracles because you just got one.\" I'm like, \"Pssh, I don't know what you're talking about, but okay. I mean, it looks cool, but I don't know what it means.\" And then of course, right after that, I had the experience where I feel like I got inverted. Like, I am- Like a hole in the center of the world shaped like a person. All the thoughts and emotions and everything, it's all like it's been flattened. It's all of equal importance now. Just as im- I- it's just as much me as the tree is. And I had a sense of self that was my entire field of experience, and it was so sudden. And like [laughs] I was just kind of grumpy and yeah. Nothing special had happened right before that, but it was instantaneous, and I had the realization that this is how it really is. And then there's a sort of collective like sigh, like, \"Okay, he gets it.\" And it felt like that was a very special moment, and maybe that's something we'll get into today. I don't know if you've ever felt this, but it was like this was a threshold moment in a conscious creature's development. Okay, cool. Mm-hmm. Like you're literally in like a different echelon now. You're like in a different category. The things we can do and say and interact with you, you're like, you know, you're like bronze tier now or whatever. [laughs] You c- we can like, if you can imagine like a Star Trek Prime Directive sort of thing, there's actually maybe like categories. I don't know if this is universal. I doubt it. But in general, I think it, it's at least philosophical, but probably has more hard rule implications. I don't know. I'm inferring all that. But this is what it felt like, is intuitively I just knew that like, well, things are different now. Like the kinds of things I can do and experience and interact with people and d- they're allowed to do different things now. Uh, you're no longer in like a protected status. Like you're not in like a nature sanctuary anymore because you know this. Once you've had this realization, things change. And the reason why, specifically, again, all intuitive, was that because nobody can stop me now. It's like you-- if you can get in a rocket ship and go to Venus or whatever, you know, the people who are hanging out in a satellite around Venus, I'm not saying any of this is true, this is just [laughs] just a complete fabricated example. They can't stop you from visiting now. So nobody's gonna try to contain you anymore because they can't. They literally can't. And so once you've had realizations of certain kinds, you can leave, like you can get out of the, the zoo. [laughs] So there, there's no point in trying to keep you in it anymore. Uh, and so you're now in a different... You can do different things. It has real utility. Um, so that's the summary plus like some of the broader implications beyond just the personal. Like it, it matters, uh, in ways that I'm still trying to figure out. Hmm. Um, yeah. I- it was really interesting to hear that experience. Like I think we spoke shortly after you had the initial experience. You shared it with me, and then to hear it again on the podcast and to listen and to absorb more and more of that. Um, and, uh, yeah, I don't... I, I feel like, uh, my meditation practice, uh, is pointing me in a different direction, um, where much of my f- focus has been on connecting very deeply with my body and, uh, getting in touch with the energy that is flowing in through me and is held in different spaces. I've been doing recently a lot of like meditation around my sacral chakra and releasing blockages there, and then my, you know, my chest, my heart center, and opening more and more. As you were speaking, actually, I felt that opening up more, which is I, I always take as a sign of synchronicity and connection and, uh, the path that I'm meant to be on. And, um, yeah, but, uh, so when I hear about these like y- your capacity to, um, just through meditation, you know, go to like these really, into these really deep, uh, altered state experiences, there's a part of me that's a little jealous and a part of me that's like, \"How do I get there?\" [laughs] You know? And, uh, I feel like you have some kind of a, a unique capacity, or I think we each have unique capacities, unique skill sets too, um, yeah, that, that are the f- are foundations for exploration and, um, maybe there's a convergence. Um, yeah, I actually listened to a podcast recently which was recounting this book called, um, The Secret of the Golden Flower, and it's a, a Taoist book. Um, there was a contemporary of Carl Jung's who traveled to China and was intending to convert the people there, but then ended up being converted into, you know, their practices, and this is a, a teaching that has been pa- passed down for millennia, and he was able to receive the teachings and re- record it. And, uh, what's described in the book just reminded me a lot of some of the things that you've been describing. Um, they talk about like, you know, different practices that inev- eventually lead to, you know, opening up this like inner visual mandala-like flower. You know, like that, that's kind of like a signifier of like a level of a- of attainment along this path. Uh, yeah, I have more to share, but that's where my mind or- initially goes to. I'm curious how that lands with you. I love you so much, man. I love you- [laughs] I love you too ... enough to say that you were feeling jealousy. You know how rare that is? Uh, this is just- [laughs] I can't take it aside, so we're gonna just leave this in the episode. I, I, yeah, I feel my feelings. I appreciate it. I, I gotta be honest. [laughs] 'Cause you're not g- you're the only one. I have. I feel it all the time. I feel all the time, uh, when I see people doing things, and you're right, we do each have unique gifts. There's aptitude. I see it when I'm doing the psi practices with other people. There are so many that I, no matter how hard I try, like I can get maybe at most a tiny amount after a lot more effort than they put in or nothing, and it's very frustrating. Um, so aptitude is definitely a thing. So I think that, and yes, you could very well be on a different path of development. Who knows how many there are? The-- what you're talking about is working at like a different layer, and all of these are valid. Like they're different perspectives. Yes, we have a connection through our body to the Earth, and there are other forms of spiritual connection or energetic connection, different layers, and it's complicated. They all mix together. I think the reason I was shown this perspective is because it leads directly into whatever-- what comes next, which is the Reality 102 experience that happens the very next day. We won't get into that today. Hmm. But it was-- I needed to know that I was my entire reality. I needed to like complete that narrative arc that I was shown in the, the end of Reality 101. \"Hey, you are everything. Remember when you literally felt that you were the things around you and not just yourself?\" Uh, not in like a... Like you were literally made out of the same thing. It's like your body is just everything you're experiencing. It's what it feels like directly. And I needed to have that in a waking state experience, and I wasn't like in a trance state. It just like, bleh. But I had-- I needed to experience that to understand the lesson that came next, um, because I was being shown like low-level fundamental rules for reality so that I could share it with other people. Hmm. There are many valid truths and perspectives, but I was getting this perspective, so the nuts and bolts low-level consciousness stuff- Hmm ... because it explained a lot of the other things or would help explain a lot of the other things, and it was very, uh, useful. But one thing I would say to when you mentioned you wanted it too, I don't have a perfect recipe, but for me, this comes at the tail end of five months of doggedly repeating over and over to myself in meditation throughout the day. Not just repeating, but believing, investing everything I had into, \"This is really true.\" Trying to get the belief to the same level to belief that when you set your foot down, it doesn't fall through the ground. It's what I was trying to do with like, \"See, wake up, remember,\" like constantly. I was feeding this thing like crazy, and then it happened, and I think that that really is the recipe. Uh, that's, that path will look different for everybody else. The effects and maybe the realization will look different for everybody else. Maybe the insight that they need- Hmm ... is different for everyone else. But I think this is a truth that anyone can get to. That is how I got there. I think it will work for anyone, uh, because that's the sort of underlying model, but let's see. [both laugh] It's a, it's a theory with a sample size of one right now. Hmm. Yeah. Well, I had a, um... I guess a lot of my really big spiritual experiences, uh, have come through psychedelics, and, uh, if you think about like propensities, um, I have somehow been able to hold space for myself through many like really big journeys, uh, sometimes going a little too far. Uh, whereas it's, I must-- I work occasionally as a psychedelic guide and support people in altered states of consciousness. So I highly recommend if anyone is curious about exploring to, uh, go on that route. But, um, yeah, because it's just this, what comes up through a psychedelic journey can be terrifying, elating, beautiful, intense suffering, you know, all the things, [chuckles] and ultimately very profound and transformative. And, uh, and when you were speaking earlier about like thresholds, um, I thought that I was thinking about my own experience, and, you know, I've probably gone on like over 100 journeys at this point, um, with different medicines, uh, maybe 200. [chuckles] And, uh, yeah, there's definitely moments where I felt like something unlocked inside of me, and I could, uh, then descend further or like, you know, go higher or something. I, I f- I think of it more as like a descending into the depth of myself. Um, and so recently, I had been thinking about exploring a higher dose LSD, uh, session, and I didn't really know what a high dose is. [chuckles] So I actually, actually, I didn't really want... And when I was intending to go on this journey since our last conversation, I was like, um, \"Maybe I'll just keep it like kind of mild. I'll take 200 micrograms,\" and, uh, that's two tabs. Uh, I'd done 100 before, but I'd used cannabis to help me navigate. Uh, and this time I was like, \"Well, let's just see what happens.\" And it started out very mild, and, uh, I was like, \"Okay, this is interesting.\" Some tingling, some sensations in my abdomen, and feeling a little nauseous, and, um, yeah. And then at some point, uh, yeah, the things shifted, [chuckles] and, and then I was sucked into this w- incredibly profound altered state. Um, yeah, hard to even like begin to describe what that was like. Um, I feel it's like, uh, taking off my skin and realizing that I am, yeah, everything. Like you said, I am my whole reality, or, you know, underneath this impression of a self, uh, or like a body or a mind, a psyche is cosmic consciousness. It's just like wearing this- ... clo- these clothes or this mask, uh, to perform the play of, uh, of, uh, life and existence, um, and explore itself in different perspectives. And it was just so obvious in that space. Um, somatically, uh, it felt like being in a nuclear fusion reaction [laughs] where, uh, past and present and all of the universe is just kind of, like, together in one churning, massive energy orb. [laughs] And, uh, from that space, it was so-- There's just so much clarity and immediate, um, like, yeah, or anything could be immediately possible. You're just like, \"Oh yeah, of course this can happen. This is the path to take.\" Um, somehow I, I always feel like at some point I try to send you psychic messages, [laughs] so I'm sorry if that happened at that- What? ... at that time. [laughs] What did you tell me? Right after we- I don't know. I don't re- I don't remember at all. Then how would I know it's from you? But it was like I am exploring, like, s- psychically. Like, it was-- It felt like there was just, like, these energy channels, and you think of a person, and you think of the energy of that person, and then it's kind of like a pathway opens up to them. Mm-hmm. And so I, I'm sure that I connected with you and probably other people and it was, you know. [laughs] And coming down, I'm like, \"I should probably close this off and be a little bit more cautious when I explore in that space.\" Uh, and then the other thing that comes to mind from that journey, um, which, you know, this description doesn't do justice to just the, the magic and power of an experience like that, as you know from your, [laughs] you know, your altered state experiences. Um, yeah, uh, there was this-- I, I think I remember you saying in the last episode that, you know, you look around and it's like [clears throat] this branch is like your skin, or this grass you're sitting on is an extension of yourself. And so it was a very, uh, visceral experience of that. Um, everything around me just was so much more vibrant, like pulsing with aliveness and responding directly to my awareness instead of seeming like it's just sitting out there, you know, like this static little kind of a, you know, a book or a bowl or a cup or something like that. It's just like this is solid and this is like this, but instead, in that state, it's like everything is kind of like vibrating and moving, and I just have this sense that it's all me. Under the surface, it's all me, you know, and this is just the appearance that it shows, you know, from this outside perspective. Um, yeah, all just, like, all just really incredible and, uh, so I think, uh, that helped me kind of... A- and then also going to that state, I know that I've had those experiences so many times before, and every time I return to that state, uh, it's like, \"Oh yeah, this is who I really am.\" Why do I keep forgetting? I have to keep reminding myself, you know? Um- Why do you keep forgetting? Do you have any insight on that? Why do I keep forgetting? Yeah. It's, uh... Well, I think the process of, like, using a psychedelic is, um, it's like dynamite, you know? It's a, it's a substance that really powerfully alters your, your mind and, um, puts you automatically into this altered state, and maybe y- you also have capacities to go deeper, like I said about the, um, you know, being able to go into, uh, new pla- new plateaus, right? Or deeper plateaus and go de- deeper, opening these kind of like thres- going behind these thresholds. Um, so I have, like, a capacity to go deeper, but it's also like this medicine is causing me to, uh, experience this, you know? And then it, my, uh, my body and my mind closes back up after the medicine leaves my system, and so I'm not quite at the developmentally-- Like, I'm not quite at the state where I can hold all of that always, right? Maybe, like, I get to, uh, get little glimpses and, uh, yeah, I think, uh, I think it's like a glimpse of where I could be growing toward, but it's not something that I can sustain, [laughs] you know? Mm-hmm. And you wouldn't want to sustain it because you have to function in this mundane reality. Um, it look- it's like, uh, we have a mutual, uh, mentor named Darren King. Um, his podcast is, uh, Point of Convergence, um, and we've taken some of his classes together. And he talks about these, this protocol that he does, which I don't think involves psychedelics, but it might. He hasn't really discussed it. Um, where he's able to exit the construct, he calls it, and, uh, he's gone on several of these excursions and inc- to increasingly further depths of reality, I guess, or beyond, you know, physical reality. And it's a bit like that, you know? Like one, uh, it kind of felt like that, like I had left the construct. But when you are, uh, when you're venturing that far, it's, like, hard to, hard to, like, then make the coffee or, like, I'm like, you know, try- I was trying to, like, make my lunch and it's just like, \"Oh, my, my hands don't really work 'cause I'm cosmic consciousness.\" [laughs] And it's like I need to, like, bring it down a little bit, you know? Uh, so that, that may be, um... Yeah. I'm curious how, curious if you have any thoughts on that. I'll, I'll pause there. I think you're experiencing even deeper truths. I think that personally, psychedelics are showing us something true. Uh, I do think they stimulate our imagination and other things, so it is... Obviously, you know better about this than I would, but I do think it's cooperative and you're creating- Mm-hmm ... some of the, the experience. But that's, I think that's because that's true also. Uh, but I think you're seeing something even deeper than what I was experiencing, um, 'cause I was experiencing The same things that you experience right now in like a regular waking life. I didn't have any, you know, sixth sense or like deep intuitive things or new senses come online. It was literally just like, \"Oh, I'm everything, but I can still think.\" That was the strangest part about my experience. Mm. I can, I can use my hands. I could talk. I could crack a joke. I could walk around. I could do my taxes. But I'm a hole in the center of my reality. [chuckles] And like, this is obviously not me. And I think you were experiencing something even deeper, which is probably the connection of a soul to everything else, right? Mm. There is no real distinction between these things. We draw lines at, I won't say arbitrary levels, but they are ultimately just still the same thing. I think we're on board for that philosophy at this point. I think you were experiencing a much deeper kind of connection, way beyond even the individual soul. Mm. That would be my take. Mm. Mm. You're getting way more. It was a yes, and. Yeah. Well, the thing I really appreciate about your process is that it's, um, that the gradual-- Like I went through a period where I was doing a lot of psychedelics, and then realized that my body can't sustain this. That, you know, I started having these sessions where as it was just harder and harder to come down from them, my body felt like, um, frayed wires. You know, my nerves kind of like... And it was just like, like after that LSD journey, I couldn't sleep at all that night. Mm. Maybe I got to sleep at like, you know, 4:00 AM or something. Uh, but it's just like, it just opens you up so much that, uh, this current incarnation is like [chuckles] not quite ready to hold all that. But the process that you're going through is like this incremental, you're being guided by your, um, you know, your soul family, your spirit guides, and they're giving you things that you're, you know, at this current stage, ready to step into, you know? Um, so I, I don't know. It's interesting. I'm, I'm finding myself more and more, uh, like using psychedelics less, you know? It, it'd been quite a while since I'd done any kind of journey when I wanted to try this LSD journey, and as I came down from that, I was like, \"You know, I think I'm good for about a year.\" [chuckles] Mm-hmm. Whereas I went through a period where I was doing things like that, you know, every two weeks or something like that, and I was just like, it was so... That being in that state was so enticing. You know? Like the, that state of power and clarity and, um, energy, you know, aliveness, was so enticing that I was just like drawn back to it. But at some point, I realized I couldn't sustain it anymore, so now I'm like, \"Okay, the gradual path is the, is the path for me.\" And I, I know that this is kind of like a, a common thread amongst like psychonauts, like Ram Dass. You know, he- Mm-hmm ... was a big explorer in the, what? '70s or '80s, and then, you know, turned more towards, uh, meditation. Alan Watts has said, uh, with psychedel- about psychedelics, \"Once you pick up-- Once you get the call, pick up the phone. Once you, once you receive the message, pick up...\" Uh, \"Once you receive the message, hang up the phone.\" [chuckles] That's, uh, that's what it is. Yeah. Don't keep doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Now you're just hitting the button over and over again. Yeah. [chuckles] Well, one of the nice parts of doing it the gradual way, and I would describe it the same way, is that it is, you bring it into your everyday life. Mm-hmm. I'm not in that kind of state all the time. It's actually very hard to get back to even that level of like, uh, like non-dual realization. But with deliberate practice, I find that my av- I find that my average state is more and more like that. Like I am moving or shifting around my entire reality when I walk, when I think, when I do stuff. Like they're all-- My thoughts and emotions are more co-equal with my surroundings and with other people's thoughts and emotions. They're like, more like fields, as some people describe them. It's like a thing I'm pouring my experience, my influence into, rather than a thing that is just mine. And so there's all these other experiences that like become a different waking state when you can stabilize it like this. So I'm not like that all the time- Mm-hmm ... but I, I bring in these capacities into my waking state just by default. It just seems to happen. And I've learned a lot, almost just, just direct experience, of course, but I've alm- learned almost enough through, like you've said, I'm in like telepathic communication largely with my sister and mother most of the time, but others too. Um, and it's just pretty chill, but it's mostly, uh, a lot of it is about instruction and... But it's really instruction through doing. It's through living, right? What does this mean? Ah, what did that happen? [chuckles] It's, it's not like, uh, the lectures are few and far between. It was like six months between the next lecture. Um, one of the things that came to mind is how like non-physical people, who are in these kinds of states all the time or can move around them freely, how they experience life, I don't know for sure, but I would, uh, reason that my, my twin, who's not physical, s- has spent most of her life, if not all of her life, that way. And so she makes an excellent study in like, what would you be like if you were like that all the time? Mm-hmm. And I know that when I get like really depressive or really upset, just life stuff, life is hard, and I'm caught up in it. She, at least for a while, had a really hard time understanding why I was so upset. I wrote down like the exact quote. I read it right before this episode, which was, \"This is just a game. We're just playing. That's not you.\" Mm. \"This isn't me.\" Like I could feel the frustration. Like, \"Why are you so upset? I wanna help you, but I don't understand like why you're so upset.\" Mm. Like she knew. Mm. Like it's not like-- They're not dumb. They, they understand like you're associated with yourself and your thoughts, your emotions. So I'm, I'm upset 'cause this thing happened or because I feel miserable about this idea. But for them it, I think it's much more obvious because they're in a state kind of like the experience we just described, where it is directly experientially obvious that your thoughts and emotions are not yours. They're just happening. Like, you can create them, but you don't have to have them. Even your body is just an expression of yourself. Even your surroundings is just an expression that you can switch up whenever you want to. Why are you so upset about this thing? Just dump that thought. Like, you're not having fun with it. Just, just why are you... I don't get it. [chuckles] So I-- that is just as much instruction as, like, the direct experience is seeing the contrast between us. Hmm. I would say, \"You don't know how hard it is to be down here sometimes. [chuckles] Come on, give me a break.\" I can be petty. [both laughing] Yeah. Hmm. I've, I've heard of, uh, um, yeah, that humans are unique amongst, uh, intelligent species, uh, across the universe. Um, um, and that they are-- Th- that, that this experience of being separate, being separated from source or, like, the deeper layers of reality is, uh, a unique experience. It certainly is. It can be uniquely miserable, too. [chuckles] I think one of the strangest things about going along this like, I guess, a path of progression, of being shown how it really is, at least in some perspectives, is that it's a lot easier to, like, get outside of behind my thoughts and emotions and just see them as a thing that is happening. I think that is the normal experience for most conscious entities. That is the gist that I get as well, is that we're oddballs and that we s- kinda like toddlers. We still think that this is all ours. It's like you get, uh, you know, my kids especially when they're really young, like, they run into the door, they get angry at the door. Like, \"This dumb door hit me.\" [chuckles] It's like we're still stuck at that level in a lot of ways. Um, and I had noticed that as I progress a l- you know, this awareness gets baked in. I make it sound like I've done something amazing. It's just happening to me. Like I'm, I'm leaning into it and I am practicing, but I think it's just a thing like walking that anyone can do. Like you already know how. It's a natural thing. Like you'll ke- you'll get there if you want the same experiences because this is how it is. I think that it's weird to me that I can still think and feel emotion. Like I can still go back down, air quotes, \"down\" into like being associated with my experience. I can play a video game or get lost in music, and I'm not thinking the whole time, \"Oh, this is an illusion. This is all fake.\" Mm. \"I'm just creating it.\" Like, no, I'm in it. I'm in it totally. Mm-hmm. Just as much as I was before. But- Yeah ... I can also stop doing that and go, \"Meh.\" Not always. I'm not perfect. You know, I still get tightly associated and caught up in my own drama like anyone. But that is less and less becoming my default state. How can it not be? Once you've had these experiences, you never go back to the same shape once you've had experiences like this, and you keep practicing it. So it's like you have the option to be exactly as you are right now. You, you're not gonna lose that. I found that very reassuring 'cause it always scared me to unwind myself this much. But you can continue to do it. You can be exactly as you are right now if you want to be, at any point in time. But the moment you're tired of that, you can go, \"I think I'm gonna go back to a non-dual chill. I feel like I'm everything,\" or whatever. Do whatever you want. And you have control. That's the difference. You get awareness and then control, and you have a choice now. Uh, and that was very reassuring for me 'cause I thought that I would be stuck like that. The [chuckles] expanding gives you the optionality to be expanded and to have more- Yeah ... awareness and control over your reality, but you don't have to. You can still just be a dude chilling, like playing a video game. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You don't have to be burdened by this greater knowledge and awareness. You can put it on. You can scale up and down. It's like the ceiling goes up. You can go back to your old level, but you don't lose the ability to be expanded or to, to stop caring about things that don't matter or to shift your experience of what's actually happening around you. You, you get more, but it doesn't end up being less. You can still be smaller if you want to. You don't lose it. Hmm. So there's really nothing to lose, except for if you want the confinement for some reason. Yeah. Then I guess you lose that. Yeah, that's really interesting. I have thought a lot about this and just experiencing more recently. Like, I used to love playing video games. I used to love watching television shows. I was big into Marvel movies and, uh, yeah, everything, you know. Um, consumption, you know. I was a consumer of popular media and, uh, there was a period in my life when maybe that was satisfying. But, um, yeah, I don't know. Like, it's interesting as it, like coming into this world, you know, from that, I, I believe that we're, you know, when we die, uh, or perhaps already, you know, like there's a, like you've shared about in your last, last episode, there's these, these different selves that exist on different layers of reality. So, you know, there's a part of you that is in that higher state, uh, or I don't even wanna call it higher 'cause I don't wanna say that there's a hierarchy. But, um, that isn't confined to this material realm, you know, of, uh, matter and time, physicalism. Uh, but when you're in that higher state, uh, I imagine that I look down on this and it's almost like a video game. It's like The Sims or World of Warcraft, like a massively... We ta- I mentioned this last time too, the massively online multiplayer game, you know, uh, where we're all creating this reality together. But it's like, \"Oh, well, that looks fun. Let me, let me go in there and experience that.\" But in order to really Get into the game, we have to forget that anything else exists, you know? And then, you know, you can just fall in love with everything and experience everything as if it's, um, real, you know? Uh, and, uh, I, I think about, I think about that and I'm like, you know, the first time trying ice cream, you know? The first time having sex. Mm-hmm. The first time playing a video game. Zelda, Nintendo 64, Ocarina of Time, like one of my first, like, games that I really fell in love with, you know? And now if I were to go back and play that, I'd be like, \"Well, this is... Eh.\" [laughs] You know? Um, and I, I like-- It's so hard for me to find anything that I'm, like, in terms of popular media, that I'm actually, like, really interested in, because nothing really satisfies, uh, the, I guess, the interest that I have now, or the developmental level I've sort of reached or, you know, reflects some of these higher realities that I've begun to contemplate. So I, I think of, like, also The Matrix, like this red pill, blue pill, right? Which is the one that keeps you in the matrix? The blue pill, I think. [laughs] The blue pill, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't think I could take the blue pill. I mean, I kind of wish sometimes that I could take the blue pill, and, like, just go back and believe that this is all, like, like money matters and, [laughs] you know, um, uh, a life where I get to play- Well, you took the blue pill to get here. Yeah, I get to-- I took the blue pill to get here, but gra- like, I've been taking little red pills my whole life since then. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a good analogy. I've said that you do get to take the red pill if you go on this sort of path of spiritual progression. Ugh, that's the word, spiritual. It's-- This is how it is. It's reality. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's the same thing. This is no difference. Yeah. It's, uh, you get the red pill, but then you still live in the matrix. Like, this is, like, the biggest- Hmm. Like, you gotta be kidding me. What? I have to go back? [laughs] No. No, I know it's all real, but now I'm here still. Like- Yeah. And I've often had-- I like to take the perspective that it's all real, and this is a choice, right? It's, it's... Is nothing real? Is everything real? I feel like that's a fundamental decision. Uh, or you, you can try, like, graduated, like, oh, this is real and this isn't. But I prefer to treat it as it's all real, um, 'cause that's, that's more meaningful to me. And, but I've experienced what you're experiencing too, and I think that from my conversations with, you know, our mutual friends and other friends that I have that are doing this kind of thing, you just stop caring about materialistic things. You stop going for cheap dopamine fixes. The kinds of easy, cheap entertainment or stimulation that used to do it for you, they fall away naturally. Uh, sometimes you can still enjoy them, but I think in a lot of ways it's like growing out of, like, eating, uh, crappy candy or junk food that doesn't taste good. You have higher standards now. Mm-hmm. And it's generally a good thing, and it's because you're after something else. So that's, like, healthy. It's not like you became numb to it so much as it's just, like, for me, it feels less meaningful now, and I, I'm after something that takes a little more effort to cultivate, but also has more richness and dimension to it. Right. It's not just like-- It has complexity in its flavor. If we're using the food analogy, it's not just sweet, artificial flavor. Yeah, and all of that, uh, media that I used to be into was like, oh, here's stories about superheroes. Here's a video game where you get to have cool magic powers. And, uh, the more I deepen into these practices, it's like, wait a minute, I can do that for real. [laughs] Uh, my, my buddy Steven over here can see without eyes and spin a, uh, a, a psi wheel around. [laughs] So can you. Yeah, so can I, you know? I need, I need to, I need to invest the 30 hours of practice. [laughs] Feels like you have less than that. [laughs] And, uh, my daughter this morning was like, \"I wish I could fly. I wish humans could fly.\" And I was like, \"Well, there is this book called They Flew- Mm-hmm ... which is a historical study of accounts from the medieval times when, you know, these monastics, um, Christian monastics would get in such ecstatic states for their love of the divine, Jesus or God or, you know, divinity, that they flew. And there were hundreds of people that witnessed these events, and it happened numerous times. Uh, and the conclusion of this academic who's researching this is they flew. [laughs] And, uh, yeah, I read Autobiography of a Yogi: The, The Life of Yogananda when I was in college. And, uh, that starts this, basically this who- whole account of all of these yogis and the incredible yogic superpowers that they have. Uh, [laughs] and there's a part of, there's a part of me that's just like, I don't think I believed it back then, you know, when I was younger. I was like, a part of me wanted to believe it and so that's why I took up meditation. [laughs] That's the part of me that's like, that's why I started meditating. Um, you know, there's accounts of, like, yog- yogis or people who would, like, fly and shoot fire out of their hands. Like, basically anything like a superhero, modern-day Marvel superhero could do, uh, there are accounts of it happening, happening in human history. [laughs] So I believe this is true. I've heard similar accounts through Dean Radin's book- Hmm ... where people have levitated in front of hundreds of people, and clearly before a time where wires or special effects were possible. Yeah. You know? Uh, this was, this is what happened. And I think that it is possible. Those are extreme moments. Yeah. And for me, th- I want the same thing. I want superpowers, but, uh, the reason we're talking right now is I want everybody else to have them too. Yeah.For, for two reasons. This is how reality really is. Yes, we're living a physical experience, and it's cool to be able to confine yourself for the challenge or whatever, but it's really lame to believe that's all there is, and you can't do anything else, and to be trapped here in an endless cycle. Uh, and I think that's where humanity is, is we're miserable. In the best-case scenario, it's cool to do, you know, play on hard mode and live a physical existence. In the worst-case scenario, it looks like we've created a 1984 scenario for ourselves- Hmm ... where we're, we're trapped in our own little thought prison because we don't know that you can have more, that you can levitate, and you can shoot fire out of your hands. It'll be really hard to do that right now. Mm-hmm. The reason these experiences matter is that awareness always precedes control. Those people did those things intuitively as extreme outliers. Hmm. They could not have possibly taught anyone how to do it. Or they meditated for 30 years under a waterfall until they just, like, had their entire reality in a vice grip. They could not have possibly shown anyone else how to do it, and obviously, that's not practical for most people. But if we all start to change it, we all gain a measure of awareness. Like real- there's no difference between a physical and a non-physical reality as far as I can tell. It is the same thing. It's just a different rule set. We could change it if we all push on it. We all change what it means 'cause we have that control. The inner senses that we thought were weak were actually incredibly powerful. In- intuition, you know- Hmm ... belief, imagination, all of these things are actually very powerful. But the world around us has been made heavy by those- Hmm ... same forces. They have, like, a momentum. They're, these psychic power... Flying is hard because we've spent a very long time believing none of this is possible. There's this weight to everything. I think some of it is built in, too. I think that this is just a lower [chuckles] magic or heavier place, probably by design. It's nice that way. But we're kind of stuck in a hellish scenario now where we don't know that we can do more. We can, we can change it. We don't have to. And you can do it at the individual level, and it always starts with realizing you can, and then you do it directly. It's, it's very strange, but once you have awareness over how it works, like, directly, not just conceptually, you're experiencing it, you can begin to control it. And it's not a lot. Like, I can move a piece of tinfoil without touching it. I can move it under glass without touching it. That's pretty cool. I can see without eyes. That's pretty cool. But anyone could do that, and these are, like, perception. It's obviously- Hmm ... not super strong. I'm not lifting a car. I'm not seeing across the world in real time or into the past. I think all of those things are possible. There are no real rules. Most of the rules are soft rules, and we can change them, but everyone around me is, like, acting like dampeners. [laughs] It's super hard. Hmm. Mm-hmm. You can change your own reality because you are your own reality. Like, that's, like, what I was shown, and then it kept being true, and then I experienced it. D- the reason you can move a piece of tinfoil is 'cause you're moving yourself. The reason you can see without eyes is because you're seeing yourself. Like, of course you can. We are each our own entire reality, and they overlap in ways, you know, we'll get around to based on what I was shown anyway- Mm-hmm ... from my understanding. And that's why you can do it. And you can alter your own reality however you want, but you are also overlapping everyone around you. And we're all influencing each other, and we could do anything if only we, like, enabled ourselves to do it. We work together on this. Um, but I think some small b- bit of hope here is that every time somebody does something like this, I think it's easier for everyone else to do it. I've seen that with Mindsight, with telekinesis. The people I show it to, especially in person, they get it like that. Metal bending, uh, I've bent a s- a fork into a knot, like, recently- [chuckles] ... at the meditation retreat. Metal bending's really hard for me alone. You give me, like, four hours- Hmm ... I could bend a spoon. But it's maybe 50/50. It's not easy. But I just walked up and did it in front of a group of five or six people who were all very excited, and they all believed it was possible, and then they did it. And, like, uh, and now they can go home and do it too, and they could not have done it before. It's like it, it cross-contaminates. Every time you do it, and no matter where you are, it seems to get easier for everyone else. So- Hmm ... the good news is, is it's getting easier all the time. I think that's why we see so many- Hmm ... UFOs and people are talking about psychic powers. I think it's literally getting easier to do. So all that to say, tell your daughter is, like, learning how to fly is getting easier by the day. [laughs] [laughs] Oh, good response. Good response. I'll try that. Yeah. She seems to be developing a very skeptical bent. Uh- Well, maybe not then. [laughs] [laughs] Um, yeah, maybe I need to get her some church or something. [laughs] I know. Um, yeah, no, this is really fascinating. I think you said everything that I, how I would've responded to that, you know. Um, that, uh, uh, these people who experience these, um, incredible feats... Well, now from this perspective, we think of, like, flying as an incredible feat. But, uh, a different reality where, you know, an entire culture is, uh, just takes that as normal, it wouldn't be. Because, uh, I think a assumption of this show and, you know, as we're exploring is that you create your own reality, but, like, multiple minds create reality together. You know? So we're living in a shared reality that is co-created, uh, and we're setting the rules for each other. Uh, we're, you know. So when I'm trying to do something that is, uh, uh, impossible by the standards of all of the minds around me, it, it really is hard even if I make myself believe it, you know? Or it's even hard to, like, get myself to believe it 'cause I don't, uh- Uh, I'm competing with all of those other thoughts, you know, which, you know, l- exist as both like a script in my mind and in conversation and in media that's all around us. Uh, but also psychically, you know? We're all interpenetrating in that way, I believe. So the-- Yeah, I think that's why it's also so important for conversations like this to happen, for more and more communities to form, where people are meeting each other and validating each other's experiences. Um, everybody's got a, the weird in them. [chuckles] Mm-hmm. I, I believe everybody has had these kinds of experiences, uh, some form of anomalous experience, whether they remember it or not. Um, and that's a part of ourselves that has gone, uh, repressed, uh, traumatized, buried deep down. Uh, you know, we're living at, in a world that has inherited a vast, uh, trove of like, yeah, just generational trauma, cultural trauma, all of these traumas that have like, a lot of them have y- uh, bent around or associated around repressing these things. Um, yeah, think of like the witch trials or the Crusades, uh, genocide against Indigenous people. All of these things represent, you know, war, a war against consciousness. Um, and so when you say that we're living in a kind of like 1984 Orwellian reality, doesn't seem that way when you walk out on the street. But if you [chuckles] really begin to like look at our structures and, um, thought control systems and everything, it-- and the ways that we limit ourselves, it, it really, like that really resonates with me. It's tragic. Uh, yeah. This also brings me to another question. Uh, so we are these, uh, multidimensional selves. There's a self that exists on a higher reality, a higher self that, uh, you know, knows all of this stuff and is inhabiting this, [chuckles] uh, really wise state, I guess, or enlightened state perhaps. Uh, but there was a choice somehow that was made f- to descend into the more contained, uh, limited reality that we are now inhabiting. And when we die, we go back to that because the soul, you know, that's what a soul is. Then why try to ascend at all within the, within this, within the construct? Does that, does that make sense? [chuckles] Yeah. Um, so we're getting on the periphery. This isn't-- What I'll respond with is my firsthand experience rather than I was shown or taught about this directly. Um, so meaning I'm still learning here. I'm refining [chuckles] the models on this one. This is not, \"Hey, this is true,\" in an experience that I totally believed and later replicated. But this is what I'm inferring, you know, by bumping into the walls- Hmm ... um, doing stuff. My opinion is there's two reasons. You're either somebody who could already do these things anywhere you were. You, you say, I believe that, you know, everyone has these multidimensional selves, higher selves. But for many people, you've maybe never accessed them for the first time. Like your, your soul is literally like in progression. Like you've never-- You've done it sporadically, or it's mostly subconscious, or it's intuitive, right? It's not totally awake. Uh, it's there, but it, you can't embody it the way you would want to. You can't access what it's capable of, right? You can't fly. You can't change your whole around, reality around you 'cause you don't have access to these higher selves that have the capacity to do that. This is my un- developing understanding, and that some people, you know, their individual soul, obviously we're all the same person, but on this level that we're talking about, you've never done that before. You're trying to wake it up for the first time. Hmm. But some people have, and so they've chosen to come here, and I think even in the air quotes afterlife, non-physical world, I think that you are still in a, maybe in a canonical sort of heaven, or you're in a place that you can understand. That doesn't mean- Hmm ... that you're th- thrown to the winds. You can go anywhere you want interdimensionally, and you can, [chuckles] you can go be part of a hive mind now. You can go do all sorts of crazy, visit DMT places. I think that- [chuckles] ... maybe some people can, but I think that it might look more familiar and happy and-- Because I think that's what your individual consciousness is ready for. You're not ready to handle being your own reality entirely and controlling everything at a low level. It's a lot of responsibility to take that on, and some people just wanna chill with their friends and family and know they're not dead. That is my understanding, is that there's something for everybody, and that you don't s-necessarily stop developing, you know, just 'cause you physically died. But there's like a level of development that only really happens when you're under pressure and you're forced into this. So that's one reason, and the other is if you can already do those things, you have no reason to really be here other than personal adventure or whatever, and I think it's to help people, is literally- Hmm ... their very presence is to help people get out of this, collectively, humanity, to help their current situation while they're here. You have to work while you're here, uh, within the system, right? You come in to work within the system, but you forget like everybody else does. That's-- Those are two reasons, is that it, it sort of levels people up. You get to keep your progress. You don't get to keep your stuff, but you get to keep your memories, your personal development, your life lessons, your capacities of awareness and conscious control over your reality. You get to keep all that when you die, and so that carries like a progression system- Hmm ... uh, through all of your lives or wherever you go. And so once you've reached these capacities, for the most part- Uh, you get to keep them. And so you can move on or do whatever you want or keep being a human being. So you get a choice. Uh, but until you reach that point, you're kind of on a guided path here just because the universe is pretty loving. Doesn't just throw you, throw you to the wolves. Uh, you're kept in a somewhat zoo-like environment until you can graduate out of it on your own. That's my understanding. Just interacting with people, non-physical, my personal experiences, that's what it seems to be like, is that you're growing up, right? It's the-- That's what it's like, and everyone grows up at their same rate or, you know, they're 40 and they still, [chuckles] they still haven't bothered to get a job or a driver's license. You're like, \"What the hell are you doing?\" There's plenty of those people too. So I think those are all the reasons. So either you already know how to do everything and you showed up to help people or because it's fun, or you don't yet and you're learning how, or maybe you never will. It's up to you. Uh, so I think that's the most succinct answer I can give based on my experience. I dig it. Um, cool. Yeah. This has been a really fascinating conversation, and I'm glad we got this time to unpack the experience and just connect and share more and, uh, see where the-- [chuckles] what wanted to emerge and what conversation threads wanted to be pulled. So I'm looking forward to hearing, uh, in our next episode, you know, the, how your experience unfolded, and I guess we're gonna get Reality 102 next. So- Mm-hmm ... um, yeah. Anything, anything you'd like to share by way of closing or signing off? Um, I'll be excited to share that because that will be-- How is this a multiplayer reality if you're everything? How do other people get to exist within it? If you're always touching yourself, if you're everything around you, like literally, physically, you are everything, uh, how is that possible that other people ever interact with you? Like, what lets them in? What lets them change stuff or not change stuff? And that's what the entire thing is about, is how that is possible. Uh, it's gonna bring up so many quest- I still have so many questions. Uh, but I, I'm excited to, to share that because I want people to know. I want people to not just know that this is how it really is. Just no dogma. This is aside from any religious views or however you wanna see it. Those things can all still be valid. This is just the underlying rule sets, like physics. This is how it works. Because I want people to have the choice to make the reality whatever they want, and to at least have the choice. If you don't ever wanna get a driver's license or a job, [chuckles] like, fine. Whatever. If you don't want to fly or to have control or to have the responsibility of what it means to have this level of awareness and control, you don't want all that. That's cool. But you should at least know you have the choice, um, because I intend to take it. I suspect that you do, too, and many others besides. Um, so that's what I'm excited about, and if this helps in any way, then it will have been time well spent. Yeah, man. I'm excited for that. It seemed like this conversation also, uh, was a, is a good preamble to that exploration. We touched on some of those topics in a good setup. So- Yeah ... um, yeah, man. I'm looking forward to it. Cool. Cool. See you then. All right. We'll call it a wrap. Yep. This is Reality 101. Until next time. Nothing is impossible, you're not going to die, and everything loves you. 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