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Speaker 1: [intro jingle]

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Speaker 1: Hello, travelers. So today's gonna be
a pretty short dev commentary. After the

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Speaker 1: commentary, I'm going to air an
interview I did with a friend, Tony, on a
podcast

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Speaker 1: called "The Creative Mindset."

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Speaker 1: Mortal Steel Episode 10 will not be
ready for your morning commute tomorrow, but it

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Speaker 1: will come out tomorrow. It took a
little bit longer because I had to do some

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Speaker 1: non-human voice effects that took an
enormous amount of time. But I think it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be worth the wait. So it'll still
come out tomorrow. There's actually gonna be

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Speaker 1: another delay between Mortal Steel
episodes 11 and 12. Now,

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Speaker 1: that's purely because episode 12, the
finale for Mortal Steel, is incredibly

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Speaker 1: awesome and almost twice as long as a
normal episode. So I wanna make sure I take

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Speaker 1: the time to get that one right. I
think it'll take about three weeks. It could
take

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Speaker 1: up to four weeks. Now, if it takes
over three weeks, I will take a little bit of

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Speaker 1: time to create a short story, and
I'll drop that here. And that's because

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Speaker 1: Steven always delivers. Let it be
known. I always deliver.

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Speaker 1: All right, moving on to some more
news. You're probably going to want to pick up a

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Speaker 1: little bit of Ethereum or Solana.
Now, if you don't know what those are, don't
worry

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Speaker 1: about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a whole bit of
blockchain and NFT education later in the year,
maybe

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Speaker 1: early next year. So if you don't know
what those are, don't worry about it. And

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna need much, because
remember, you're here early, and the people who

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Speaker 1: are here early and support early. And
if you listened to the last dev commentary,

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Speaker 1: you know that I reward early
supporters. All right, next up, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna run a contest towards the end
of November, early December, for sound design

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Speaker 1: and writing. So if you want an
opportunity to learn how to make sound effects
like

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Speaker 1: we do in Mortal Steel or try your
hand at writing, this is a good opportunity for

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Speaker 1: you. There's gonna be some cash
prizes, and I'm collaborating with another
creator,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna have some, uh, other
interesting prizes as well. You'll hear a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about that probably
in a week or two as we finalize the details.

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Speaker 1: While this contest is just for
writing and sound design, if you're a visual
artist

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Speaker 1: or a musician, uh, I'd still like to
hear from you. We're gonna need all sorts going

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Speaker 1: forward, and now would be a great
time to connect. Now, if you're a 3D

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Speaker 1: modeler, I would really like to speak
with you. I'll let you use your

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Speaker 1: imagination on why I might need that
one.

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Speaker 1: All right, moving on to season two
updates. The casting calls are going out soon
for

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Speaker 1: season two. Art and music is still
underway. And I can say that the visual art
looks

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Speaker 1: incredibly cool. And if you're not
already aware, season two is not a direct sequel

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Speaker 1: to Mortal Steel. It's an entirely
separate story in an entirely new world with

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Speaker 1: different characters. And we're gonna
be doing that with every season. Now, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we can't or won't
do direct sequels. But if we're gonna do direct

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Speaker 1: sequels, we're gonna need more money,
and we're gonna need a bigger team.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of which, for season two, I
am going to try to

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Speaker 1: absolutely blow your minds. So part
of that means I have doubled

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Speaker 1: the production for art and music. I
am increasing the budget everywhere I can to

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Speaker 1: make it awesome. And the reason I'm
doing that is I have a theory. I believe that

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Speaker 1: doubling down on the production
quality is the way to help everybody.

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Speaker 1: I think it's what you want.

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Speaker 1: And it's really a leap of faith,
honestly. I choose to believe that this money is

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Speaker 1: gonna come back to us eventually
because people want to support creators who are

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Speaker 1: putting in the time, putting in the
money, putting in the effort to make something

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Speaker 1: great. And we're putting in 30,
40-hour weeks on this show while working
full-time.

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Speaker 1: It's not easy. And at our current
burn rate, especially the new burn rate with
this

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Speaker 1: increased production budget, we're
probably gonna run out of money in about six

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Speaker 1: months. Now, that sounds very scary,
but we've got six months. And

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Speaker 1: until then, like I said, I am going
to do absolutely everything

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Speaker 1: I can to blow your minds.

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Speaker 1: Finally, remember,

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Speaker 1: Collected is not mine. It's ours. I'm
just getting it started. This is

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Speaker 1: an ecosystem. It's going to take a
lot of people, a lot of effort, and a

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Speaker 1: fair amount of money to bring this
vision to life.

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Speaker 1: But when you start to see what I have
planned, oh man, it is so,

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Speaker 1: so going to be worth it. This is not
a podcast. It looks like a podcast right now,

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Speaker 1: but it really is not.

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Speaker 1: Now, without further ado, let's hear
my interview with Tony at The Creative

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Speaker 1: Mindset. See you, travelers.

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Speaker 2: Mortal Steel. [rock music] Pastor
Ethan

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Speaker 2: Cutter was wheeled down the hallway
of the advanced clinic, the only such building

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Speaker 2: in Last Respite, one of the three
remaining human strongholds in the old Los
Angeles

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Speaker 2: area. It differed from the other
clinics in Last Respite. Those were hot, cramped

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Speaker 2: buildings packed with people too sick
to cure, too injured to heal. If you went to a

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Speaker 2: clinic, you usually went there to
die. Steven Schrembeck.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Tony.

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Speaker 2: Hey, how's it going, man?

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Speaker 1: You know, life is, is too good to me.
I keep waking up and thinking it can't be

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Speaker 1: real. [laughs]

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Speaker 3: Oh, really?

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Speaker 1: I, I love it. I really do love my
life. Uh, and it is an active thing, uh, that I

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Speaker 1: cultivate that mindset, but it works
and I'm just having fun. I really am

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Speaker 1: having fun. It's not all fun, but
it's almost all fun.

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Cool. What, what's fun?

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Speaker 1: I wake up every day trying to do
something, trying to make the most out of the

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Speaker 1: day. Um, and this is, again, this is
a deliberate mindset. I don't always, didn't

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Speaker 1: always do that. But now I just have
this feeling that today is, like, potential.

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Speaker 1: It's something I can use to make
something important happen, right? This is,
like,

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Speaker 1: my ammunition. This is all, all I've
got. Uh, as opposed to just waking up and

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Speaker 1: trying to get through the day, I am
waking up like, "How much can I squeeze out of

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Speaker 1: this day, uh, in the best possible
way?" I do a lot of boring stuff that's

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Speaker 1: important, [laughs] but... And I
don't look forward to those things, right? Those

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Speaker 1: are still painful, but I look forward
to what it means. I feel like I'm making

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Speaker 1: progress every day, right?

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Speaker 3: Forward movement, man. That's my
phrase for 2021, forward movement.

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Speaker 1: [laughs] Okay.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, how, how do you sustain
that attitude? I mean, what is it that excites

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Speaker 3: you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: What's the stuff that you're thinking
of that gets you motivated?

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Speaker 1: Most of it comes from feeding a
passion, right? And it is, it is l- it is a

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Speaker 1: deliberate act of will. This isn't
just something you get. It doesn't just

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Speaker 1: happen to you, this kind of
excitement and fulfillment. You have to build
it. And

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Speaker 1: it... The fire dies down just a
little bit every day, too. You have to keep
putting

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Speaker 1: logs on it, right? I think that's a
very apt metaphor. Um, so what kinds of things

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Speaker 1: are... excite me? Well, I mean,
that's just unique to me, right? Certain kinds
of

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Speaker 1: projects, certain kinds of ideas get
me really excited. You know, everyone's got

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Speaker 1: their own thing. For me, it's
tinkering. It's figuring out what the rules are
for a

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Speaker 1: system and then breaking them or
seeing just how far you can press them. It's...
I

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Speaker 1: am heavily motivated by curiosity.
I'd say that's a driving force in my life and

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Speaker 1: everything I'm interested in. The
moment I feel like I know what's going to happen

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Speaker 1: in whatever I'm doing, I'm no longer
interested. I, I need that uncertainty to keep

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Speaker 1: me going. So I kinda live, I try to
live on the edge. [laughs] This sounds very

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Speaker 1: exciting. We're talking about, like,
writing stories here. [laughs] I'm not actually

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Speaker 1: living on the edge. I'm not, like, a
stunt driver or anything. Um, but I love that

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Speaker 1: uncertainty. It's in- it's
intoxicating to me. Uh, but also potential,
right? Not

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Speaker 1: just uncertainty in a terrible way.
Is it gonna hurt a five or is it gonna hurt 10?

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Speaker 1: Like, that's not exciting. Um, it has
to be good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So I'm gonna guess you're not
the kinda person that likes to rewatch movies or

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Speaker 3: TV shows that you've already seen.

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Speaker 1: No. I hate that.

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Speaker 3: Me too.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand it. I never
understood the people who did. Uh, I watch it
once

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Speaker 1: and I love it. Now, the very best,
the very best I will watch again, but I will

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Speaker 1: watch them again, like, a year or two
later. Like, Scott Pilgrim vs. the World,

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Speaker 1: okay, I've probably got five views on
that.

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Speaker 3: [laughs]

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Speaker 1: And you're, like, top, top of the
charts. Like, that's the most I will ever watch
a

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Speaker 1: favorite movie, which sounds crazy,
but I would rather watch something new.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed. Me too. Although
recently I, I have gone back and started
watching

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Speaker 3: things that I watched-

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Speaker 1: Yeah

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Speaker 3: ... about 10 years ago. And some of
them I remember and I skip through those

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Speaker 3: episodes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I watch it, but what's funny is
when I rewatch it, I watch it to find

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Speaker 1: something new. Even then, I'm not
just basking in what I already love. I'm still

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Speaker 1: looking for the things I missed, and
when I feel like there's nothing left there,

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Speaker 1: uh, I'm out. [laughs]

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, you're different. 10
years has passed. I'm different.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 3: And I see things and find m- meaning
in a different way from, from it than I

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Speaker 3: did 10 years ago when I didn't-

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Speaker 1: Yeah

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Speaker 3: ... really... You know, I never liked
Star Trek: Enterprise.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 3: You know the one with Scott Bakula?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you're talking
about.

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Speaker 3: S- I watched maybe three episodes and
said, "This sucked," and I hated-

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Speaker 1: [laughs]

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Speaker 3: ... Jolene Blalock. Uh, well, I...
Not her, but her character, T'Pol.

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Speaker 1: It's impersonal.

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Speaker 3: Just recently have I gone back,
'cause I don't watch that much television, but
I'll

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Speaker 3: watch... I'll try... You know, I may
watch one episode a night if I am really into

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Speaker 3: the show, and I really am into... I
really got into Enterprise and I came to really

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Speaker 3: love the character of T'Pol, and I
watched the thing from start to finish, and it's

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Speaker 3: because I'm different.

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Speaker 1: So what changed is you. It's like
changing taste, right? You used to hate
broccoli,

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Speaker 1: now you love it, right? It's, you
have to resample things because you change as a

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Speaker 1: person. Yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: [instrumental music]

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Speaker 3: Pastor Ethan Cutter was wheeled down
the hallway of the Advanced Clinic, the only

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Speaker 3: such building in Last Respite, one of
the three remaining human strongholds in the

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Speaker 3: old Los Angeles area. It differed
from the other clinics in Last Respite. Those
were

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Speaker 3: hot, cramped buildings packed with
people too sick to cure, too injured to heal. If

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Speaker 3: you went to a clinic, you usually
went there to die. The Advanced Clinic, in stark

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Speaker 3: contrast, was the pinnacle of human
achievement. It was the place you went to become

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Speaker 3: something greater. But like the other
clinics, it was also a place you usually went

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Speaker 3: to die. Ethan told himself he was
prepared to die. He'd told everyone else that at

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Speaker 3: every step along the way, but as they
prepped him for surgery, he found that he was

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Speaker 3: actually terrified. Maybe it wasn't
too late to back out. Dr.

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Speaker 3: Marie Singer glanced at a rapidly
beeping machine.

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Speaker 4: Your heart rate's rising.

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Speaker 5: What can I expect here, Doc?

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Speaker 3: She smiled reassuringly and held his
hand as they wheeled his gurney toward the

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Speaker 3: operating room.

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Speaker 4: This will be easier than any of your
training until now. This next step is on us.

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Speaker 4: We'll take good care of you

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Speaker 1: Just like they'd taken care of the
first three candidates before him? The ones that

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Speaker 1: had died on the operating room floor?
He wasn't supposed to know about that.

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Speaker 6: What is Collected Stories?

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Speaker 1: So, uh, straight off the marketing,
Collective is a immersive audio platform.

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Speaker 1: And what does that mean exactly?
It's... These are just... It's like an audiobook

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Speaker 1: with sound effects, a full team of
voice actors, music, visual art, right? It's

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Speaker 1: everything I could throw in there
that makes it feel like you're actually there,

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Speaker 1: right? It's like a TV show with the
picture turned off, right? That's what I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to do. But there's a narrator.
That's, that's the trick, right? I throw that

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Speaker 1: in there. Um, so it is those stories.
Right now it's a podcast, uh, because I am in

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Speaker 1: the trenches. Like, I am building
this thing and getting practice, and it's a

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Speaker 1: podcast just so I can get it out
there. Uh, but eventually it's a subscription

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Speaker 1: service, right? So sometime early
next year. Um, it's not just art to me, it's

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Speaker 1: business. Um, so early next year the
business really starts. Um, yeah, so

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Speaker 1: monthly subscription. I'm gonna bring
in authors and voice actors and artists and

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Speaker 1: composers from everywhere. Um, so
that is what it is, is these stories delivered
to

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Speaker 1: you weekly, kind of like a TV show
almost, dropping into an RSS feed. But really,

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Speaker 1: that's just, like, what it is. The
reason behind it is so much more to me, and I

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Speaker 1: find myself more and more motivated
by the why, that second reason, not just making

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Speaker 1: the art, but the purpose for the art.
I find more and more my motivation is coming

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Speaker 1: from that why, rather than just
self-gratification of making something cool.
Now, I

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Speaker 1: still feel that, and I still love it.
I still love making the art. But now that it

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Speaker 1: has a purpose beyond me, I'm that
much more motivated.

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Speaker 6: That's cool. Well, it's, it's pretty
amazing. When we first met, when you said, uh,

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Speaker 6: this is what you were doing, you
know, my first impression was, uh, okay, put it
on

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Speaker 6: audible.com and somebody's reading
a... It, it'll be like somebody reading a book.

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Speaker 6: But it's not that at all. It's
extremely compelling. The stories are really
good,

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Speaker 6: and the production is, is very good,
too.

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Speaker 1: Always improving.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, man. When you and I first met,
it was just you, but you have grown this into,

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Speaker 6: you, like you said, you hire voice
act- You hire actors-

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Speaker 1: Yeah

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Speaker 6: ... and you are adding sound effects
and layered textures

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Speaker 6: and narration. I very much enjoy
listening. I get into this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it started as a theory, and
most people have that reaction, by the way. Eh,

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Speaker 1: it's an audiobook, right? What do I
get? And so some people know what an audio drama

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Speaker 1: is. They may remember the old radio
dramas or know of them, right? It is... I

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Speaker 1: describe this as halfway between an
audiobook and an audio drama. I am so excited

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Speaker 1: about this format, totally
independent what if I'm doing. I really hope it
takes

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Speaker 1: off. Like, totally separate from me,
other people go off and make this, because I

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Speaker 1: think it really has potential. It is
just so, so cool. It offers

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Speaker 1: something that none of the other
mediums offer. I can get into that. I can geek
out

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Speaker 1: on that. But ultimately, that's part
of what motivates me, is I think there's

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Speaker 1: something here. It's not something I
made. It has a life of its own. It is an

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Speaker 1: opportunity in the world, uh, that
has already existed. It was already there. I'm

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Speaker 1: just somebody who stumbled on it,
right? I'm not even the first person to stumble

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Speaker 1: upon this idea. I'm just the first
person to take it and use it in this way

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Speaker 1: for a subscription business, right?
Um.

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Speaker 6: What's also cool is you do it all by
yourself.

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Speaker 1: [laughs] Yeah.

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Speaker 6: But, but at, uh, y- at least you're
doing it right now by design. Other companies

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Speaker 6: that are, uh, what did you say? Uh,
GraphicAudio? They have a huge

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Speaker 6: budget and lots of people working on
it. Why did you decide to work on this and do

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Speaker 6: all the recording and editing and
marketing and everything all by yourself?

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Speaker 1: First of all, yeah, GraphicAudio is
probably my closest competitor, right, in

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Speaker 1: format. And huge props to those
people. I love their productions. I think it is
so

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Speaker 1: cool. Like, I'm not trying to put
them down at all. I see really no competition

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Speaker 1: there. That's an illusion. Uh, but
yes, at face value, it looks like competition.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, they have big teams, big
production, right? Compared to me, right? It's

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Speaker 1: all relative. Um, the reason I chose
to do it alone, and I've been at this for

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Speaker 1: eight months, everything except the
writing, right? I've been writing for 16 years,

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Speaker 1: uh, but not ever professionally. So
eight months on this skill set. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: do the narration, I do the sound
design, I do the directing, I do everything.

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Speaker 1: Everything which is not the voice
acting, uh, and the visual art and the music

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Speaker 1: composing. But even then, I went in
there and I did most of the music myself.

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Speaker 1: [laughs] And the reason I do all of
this myself is because I have plans to

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Speaker 1: eventually direct experts who are
gonna be better than I ever could be at any of

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Speaker 1: these skills, because it's the one
thing they focus on. I know that's where I'm

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Speaker 1: going, but I need to understand their
problems. I need to

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Speaker 1: understand how they think and what,
how they build their part of the story. Once I

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Speaker 1: become expert in each of these
pieces, right? Some of them I care about more
than

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Speaker 1: others, to be frank. [laughs] Those
are the ones I've outsourced already. But I just

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Speaker 1: know that if I can master these
skills to a sufficient degree, that when it
comes

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Speaker 1: time to tell them what I need from
them, I know how to get the best out of them. I

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Speaker 1: can direct this diverse team. I
believe fundamentally that to be the best
leader,

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Speaker 1: you have to understand every single
one of the people under you. You have to be able

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Speaker 1: to do their job. Doesn't mean you
have to be able to do it better than them- You

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Speaker 1: shouldn't, otherwise it's kind of
pointless, right? You could just do it yourself.
I

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Speaker 1: think that you need to understand
their problems, and that's what I'm doing. I'm

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Speaker 1: forcing myself to be in the thick of
it so that when it comes time to start

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Speaker 1: outsourcing sound design or mixing or
whatever I'm doing, not only do I know their

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Speaker 1: language, I know how to do their job.
So first of all, it's way easier to hire and

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Speaker 1: to-- you can never be BS'd by
somebody because you know how to do it. Uh, so
there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of reasons to know this from a
business perspective, but also I hate

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Speaker 1: not understanding things. We talk
about how I was mo-motivated by curiosity. I
hate

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Speaker 1: not understanding something and how
it works, especially a thing that I'm building,

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Speaker 1: right? I have to know how all the
pieces work. I don't need to be the best at it,

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Speaker 1: but that's how I feel. So I'm
learning how all the pieces work, I guess is the

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Speaker 1: fastest way to answer that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, you're
acquiring skills that will make you a better

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Speaker 6: leader and producer.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 6: You have a long-term vision for this.
With everybody I've interviewed so far, there

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Speaker 6: seems to be a pattern of pronouncing
your intentions almost as if the pronouncement,

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Speaker 6: it's a step that you can't skip.

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Speaker 1: That is exactly right. Plans are
pointless, but they are also essential. This
is-- I

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Speaker 1: think that there's a famous quote
here that I'm not quite hitting, but you

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Speaker 1: understand what I mean. There is
something intoxicating about saying eight ball,

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Speaker 1: corner pocket, and then lining up the
shot and then sinking it, right? It is the

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Speaker 1: intention to go somewhere that
matters. That clarity

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Speaker 1: resolves your entire path for you.
You know what to do from that point forward. The

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Speaker 1: point of the goal is not to be right
at the outset. Ten years from now, here's where

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be no matter what. That's
not important. It's actually not even important

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Speaker 1: that I reach that point, because
there's a ninety-nine percent chance I'm gonna
move

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Speaker 1: that goalpost to somewhere else for a
lot of good reasons, not just bad reasons.

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Speaker 1: Like, oh, turns out that's actually
not what I wanted, or this wasn't the best way

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Speaker 1: to get there. The point of putting
that goal there is to give yourself

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Speaker 1: certainty. It is, it is critical to
motivation, is,

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Speaker 1: is the shortest way of saying that.
And there's something about

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Speaker 1: setting an ambitious goal and knowing
that you will reach it that is just so

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Speaker 1: intoxicating. It has a motivation of
its own. Um, and it, I think is an important

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Speaker 1: part of any plan. You can't simply do
it. You can't just sit down and go, "I could

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Speaker 1: have sat down and said, 'Eh, I'm
gonna make some audio stories. That sounds like

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Speaker 1: fun.'" Now, it's okay to start there
to see if you're excited about it, right?

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Speaker 1: That's actually the best place to
start. Don't start by saying, "I'm gonna conquer

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Speaker 1: the world with my audio stories. I'm
gonna take over the whole market. I'm gonna put

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Speaker 1: Audible out of business," right? You
can't start with that. That's insanity. But you

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Speaker 1: can start with, "Do I like this?" And
then once you realize you like it, and once

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Speaker 1: you realize this is a thing, I could
do something with this, that's when you set

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Speaker 1: your big, ambitious goal, right? And
that, that's the right time to do it, and

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Speaker 1: that's where I'm at. I have big,
ambitious goals. I've made them very clear, and

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Speaker 1: they are incredibly motivating.

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Speaker 6: And you've told other people about
them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's essential. I have
always wavered on should you tell people your

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Speaker 1: goals or not, and this is a common,
common mis-- uh, I guess a contentious topic.

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Speaker 1: It depends. For me, action is so
important.

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Speaker 1: It is much more important for people
to see me doing things and getting results than

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Speaker 1: it is for me to tell them. And I get
this gross feeling like, "I'm gonna do this.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be great," because it just
feels like empty promises. So the reason I like

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Speaker 1: to not tell people my goals is 'cause
I want them to see what I'm doing and be

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Speaker 1: shocked by it. Like, "What the heck
is this guy up to?" Like, "How is he

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Speaker 1: accomplishing all this," right? I
want that. But at the same time, you need to
tell

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Speaker 1: people, uh, because otherwise they
can't help you, but also because it reinforces

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Speaker 1: your own identity. Uh, once you've
made that part of your identity, like, you

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Speaker 1: can't not do it. Like, it is as if it
has almost happened. And once you get to that

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Speaker 1: level of self-confidence, you know
that you can say something, and you will either

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Speaker 1: make it real or break in the process.
Um, and then that's when your promises really

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Speaker 1: have power over you, is when you know
that, okay, I said I was gonna do it. I have a

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Speaker 1: at least reasonable path to get
there. I'm either gonna do it, or it's not
possible.

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Speaker 5: Sorry for the wait. It's a chore just
to get up at my age.

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Speaker 2: He turned and walked back into his
office, leaving the door open for Ethan to
follow

315
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Speaker 2: him.

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Speaker 5: I don't suppose you have that
problem, do you?

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Speaker 2: Negative. Ethan winced at his own
words.

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Speaker 2: I mean, no, sir. Archbishop Gabriel
Klein collapsed into his large office chair

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Speaker 2: behind his desk and gave Ethan an
undisguised look of exhaustion.

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Speaker 5: Do you sleep?

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Speaker 2: Ethan moved into the room, ignoring
the fourteen yellow warning marks that flashed

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Speaker 2: around the room on his HUD, warning
him of potential dangers like hidden weapons or

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Speaker 2: secret entrances, never mind that
this was the office of his commander.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes. Not like I used to.

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Speaker 2: The Archbishop motioned for him to
have a seat. Ethan didn't know how to tell the

326
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Speaker 2: man that he didn't need to, that his
titanium joints experienced no strain from

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Speaker 2: standing. That, and even if he did
feel discomfort, he could simply turn it off.

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Speaker 5: Please, sit.

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Speaker 2: Yes, sir. Ethan sat down without even
considering it. That unnerved him. Had he

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Speaker 2: chosen to sit? More importantly,
could he have chosen not to?

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Speaker 6: You're a member of a few
accountability groups.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 6: Why, and what are they, and what do
they do for you?

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Speaker 1: So the foreword to that is

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Speaker 1: If I look like I have it all figured
out, that is an illusion. It is an illusion

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Speaker 1: that anybody has it figured out,
right? The metaphor is that it's a puzzle that
can

337
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Speaker 1: never be solved. Nobody can have all
the pieces. It's not possible. What I mean

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Speaker 1: figured out, I mean have it all, like
no doubt as to what they're doing. No doubt

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Speaker 1: fundamental, even the thing I just
told you about the promise that I'm like, "I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna hit this huge ambitious goal."
Of course I have doubt about that. Of course I

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Speaker 1: have doubt about every single thing
I'm doing. Now, to varying degrees.

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Speaker 1: Nobody has it all figured out. So
that's the, the preamble to this. Uh, the second

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Speaker 1: part is that I have a long, long
series of starting

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Speaker 1: and giving up on projects.

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Speaker 6: Oh, really?

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Speaker 1: For the past, ooh, ooh,

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Speaker 1: forever. For the past forever. Uh, so
it's the same pattern over and over

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Speaker 1: again. Every few months, new
fascination, way into this, start to get
self-doubt,

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Speaker 1: right? Crash and burn. It's just
slow, slow anxiety creeping in. Can I do this?

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Speaker 1: Is this gonna work? Do I really want
to do this? That's the real kicker. Do I want

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Speaker 1: to do this anymore, right? It always
erodes it, and I move on to the next thing.

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Speaker 1: This time is different, and the
reason this time is different is that for the
first

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Speaker 1: time in my life, I'm not going it
alone on something very important to me, and
that

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Speaker 1: has made all the difference. So I am
in accountability groups. I'm in an

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Speaker 1: accountability group-

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Speaker 6: With me

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Speaker 1: ... I'm in... For creatives, yeah,
I'm in your accountability group.

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Speaker 6: We're in a couple cre- accountability
groups.

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Speaker 1: I'm in an account- a goal-setting and
accountability group on a weekly basis. I am

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Speaker 1: in a business accountability group. I
have a creativity coach. I have a productivity

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Speaker 1: coach. I have a health and wellness
doctor expert, right? I, I have a psychiatrist.

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Speaker 1: I have surrounded myself with so many
people that I cannot possibly

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Speaker 1: fail. In fact, I actually promised
myself yesterday I would remove the F-word from

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Speaker 1: my, uh, vocabulary, uh, because it's
not useful to me anymore. Uh, so I'm going to,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop using it from this
point forward.

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Speaker 6: You and I are so much alike.

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Speaker 1: [laughs] I cannot stop now, and that
has made all the difference. And it sounds so

368
00:26:48.094 --> 00:26:52.974
Speaker 1: crazy, but I have always had this
feeling that if I didn't do it myself, it didn't

369
00:26:53.034 --> 00:26:53.374
Speaker 1: count.

370
00:26:54.194 --> 00:26:54.254
Speaker 6: Right.

371
00:26:54.294 --> 00:27:00.174
Speaker 1: Which is absurd. It was a complete
misconception. First of all, nobody

372
00:27:00.214 --> 00:27:01.174
Speaker 1: ever does anything alone.

373
00:27:01.234 --> 00:27:03.434
Speaker 6: Well, first of all, you are doing it
all yourself.

374
00:27:04.234 --> 00:27:06.314
Speaker 1: I'm doing the important parts, right?
I'm-

375
00:27:06.414 --> 00:27:11.334
Speaker 6: What you're getting help with is the
m- is the mental stuff. There are things that I

376
00:27:11.434 --> 00:27:15.914
Speaker 6: start and don't finish as well. Uh,
uh, more than I care to-

377
00:27:16.514 --> 00:27:16.874
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

378
00:27:16.874 --> 00:27:22.094
Speaker 6: ... admit. And I think, I wonder if
there's a connection between that and not

379
00:27:22.154 --> 00:27:27.854
Speaker 6: wanting, not going back and watching
TV shows again. Because once you get

380
00:27:27.954 --> 00:27:32.494
Speaker 6: into the grind, it's like, "Okay,
I've done this before. It's not new." Even
though

381
00:27:32.574 --> 00:27:37.574
Speaker 6: you, you might have a plan, a
long-term plan, when you get down to the daily,

382
00:27:38.774 --> 00:27:44.654
Speaker 6: it's like sometimes it's often the
same thing over and over. And I wonder if that's

383
00:27:44.714 --> 00:27:45.294
Speaker 6: connected.

384
00:27:46.054 --> 00:27:50.354
Speaker 1: So I've done a lot of soul searching
on this, obviously. This moment happened to me,

385
00:27:50.914 --> 00:27:56.014
Speaker 1: um, really early on in this process
for this goal, right? Why is this time

386
00:27:56.054 --> 00:28:01.894
Speaker 1: different? I had to ask myself that.
I have stopped dozens of times

387
00:28:01.994 --> 00:28:06.754
Speaker 1: on projects of this size. Why is this
one different? And I just had this moment

388
00:28:06.754 --> 00:28:12.534
Speaker 1: where I'm like, "I have the same
pattern over and over and over again." Um, so
part

389
00:28:12.574 --> 00:28:17.014
Speaker 1: of it is ADHD, right? That's
absolutely a part of it, and that's really just
the

390
00:28:17.094 --> 00:28:21.474
Speaker 1: same thing as normal human problems
with a couple of the dials turned up, right? To

391
00:28:21.534 --> 00:28:27.314
Speaker 1: varying degrees. One of those is
novelty seeking. That is the desire, again, part
of

392
00:28:27.334 --> 00:28:32.294
Speaker 1: why I'm motivated by curiosity, is
the desire for novelty, to see new things, to

393
00:28:32.394 --> 00:28:37.294
Speaker 1: see, think you understand something,
but instead get back a different result. The

394
00:28:37.354 --> 00:28:42.954
Speaker 1: unexpected, right? Seeking that out,
new experiences, more stimulation. So to some

395
00:28:42.994 --> 00:28:47.114
Speaker 1: extent, once I've gotten to a point
where I feel like I kinda get it, it makes sense

396
00:28:47.174 --> 00:28:50.914
Speaker 1: that motivation would start to waver,
and something else would start to look more

397
00:28:50.954 --> 00:28:54.914
Speaker 1: interesting. It's always replaced by
another project. So to some extent, it was

398
00:28:54.954 --> 00:28:59.634
Speaker 1: that. Some of it is when you're by
yourself, it is an echo chamber of your own

399
00:28:59.654 --> 00:29:03.954
Speaker 1: thoughts and doubts. All you have
coming back to you at some point is your own

400
00:29:04.014 --> 00:29:07.694
Speaker 1: anxiety, bouncing off the walls over
and over and over again until that's all you

401
00:29:07.714 --> 00:29:11.854
Speaker 1: can hear. It doesn't matter how much
you wanna do it anymore because you're just

402
00:29:11.914 --> 00:29:16.714
Speaker 1: crushed by your own doubt. There's
nobody to step in and say something, even if you

403
00:29:16.794 --> 00:29:22.154
Speaker 1: know it to be true. This isn't about
logic. It's about emotions. Even if you feel

404
00:29:22.254 --> 00:29:25.514
Speaker 1: logically you know that this is
possible, this thing you're trying to do,

405
00:29:27.094 --> 00:29:31.354
Speaker 1: but by then it's too late. You just
need somebody you care about who is at least a

406
00:29:31.414 --> 00:29:36.754
Speaker 1: little bit invested in your work to
say, "Oh, I think you can do this.

407
00:29:37.654 --> 00:29:40.694
Speaker 1: Oh, well why don't you try this
instead? Oh, I'm sorry you're feeling that way."

408
00:29:40.834 --> 00:29:46.754
Speaker 1: Even just to be heard is often
enough. Even just to speak to another person who
you

409
00:29:46.794 --> 00:29:51.654
Speaker 1: know sincerely wants the best for
you, who actually wants you to succeed. Even
that

410
00:29:51.694 --> 00:29:56.354
Speaker 1: is enough. So I'll never go it alone
again. It's the biggest change I've made, and

411
00:29:56.414 --> 00:30:00.954
Speaker 1: it has been a monumental change. So
I'm at eight months now, so significantly past

412
00:30:00.994 --> 00:30:03.914
Speaker 1: my usual [laughs] breaking point. Um,

413
00:30:05.494 --> 00:30:10.414
Speaker 1: and I am, if anything, more motivated
than ever. So yesterday I had a meeting with,

414
00:30:10.474 --> 00:30:13.894
Speaker 1: uh, two literary agents, right? So
part of my growth strategy is to pull on

415
00:30:13.954 --> 00:30:17.614
Speaker 1: established authors, borrow their
audience, and get them onto my subscriber

416
00:30:17.674 --> 00:30:23.174
Speaker 1: platform, right? It's not gonna work.
Flat out, right? That talking to those two

417
00:30:24.114 --> 00:30:27.754
Speaker 1: very incredible people, very
knowledgeable. If anybody would know whether
that would

418
00:30:27.794 --> 00:30:31.526
Speaker 1: work or not, it's these people. They
were rock stars, right? It's not gonna work.

419
00:30:32.006 --> 00:30:36.226
Speaker 1: Now, they did validate my core
premise, selling audio stories, immersive audio

420
00:30:36.306 --> 00:30:40.386
Speaker 1: stories to people on a subscription
does look like it has potential, right? Now,

421
00:30:40.426 --> 00:30:43.726
Speaker 1: whether I can execute on that is
totally separate, but the core thesis is intact.

422
00:30:44.206 --> 00:30:48.366
Speaker 1: The growth strategy I had is not
gonna work. It's just not gonna work for a lot
of

423
00:30:48.386 --> 00:30:54.006
Speaker 1: reasons I won't go into. It hurt.
That was the kind of event which would have

424
00:30:54.046 --> 00:30:58.126
Speaker 1: crippled me in the past. That's the
beginning of a downward spiral. But I have

425
00:30:58.126 --> 00:30:58.146
Speaker 1: surrounded-

426
00:30:58.146 --> 00:30:58.526
Speaker 6: Why did it hurt?

427
00:30:59.206 --> 00:30:59.326
Speaker 1: Hmm?

428
00:30:59.766 --> 00:31:00.486
Speaker 6: Why did it hurt?

429
00:31:01.566 --> 00:31:06.666
Speaker 1: It hurt because I had a theory about
how the world worked, and I had a path that

430
00:31:06.686 --> 00:31:10.866
Speaker 1: would get me there, that I had
invested a lot of time and emotion into, that I
had a

431
00:31:10.906 --> 00:31:14.846
Speaker 1: lot of m- mental momentum and
emotional momentum, like, "This is where I'm
going,"

432
00:31:14.926 --> 00:31:18.806
Speaker 1: right? You tell yourself, "This is
where I'm going," every day when you wake up,
and

433
00:31:18.826 --> 00:31:23.946
Speaker 1: you're excited about it, and then
somebody who you absolutely should believe tells

434
00:31:23.966 --> 00:31:27.206
Speaker 1: you it's not going to work for a lot
of very good reasons that actually make sense

435
00:31:27.246 --> 00:31:27.506
Speaker 1: to you.

436
00:31:29.106 --> 00:31:33.746
Speaker 1: You should take... The, the sane
thing to do is to tear it down, right? Some

437
00:31:33.806 --> 00:31:38.006
Speaker 1: progress is destructive. I told my
productivity coach this yesterday. Again,

438
00:31:38.126 --> 00:31:42.306
Speaker 1: surround yourself with people. Don't
go alone. I told my productivity coach this

439
00:31:42.326 --> 00:31:46.326
Speaker 1: yesterday, some progress is
destructive. And while I know that, the... it
would have

440
00:31:46.366 --> 00:31:50.746
Speaker 1: been completely foolish to keep going
down this path because it is not going to

441
00:31:50.786 --> 00:31:55.646
Speaker 1: work. Even if it did, it would work
so little for the amount of effort invested, it

442
00:31:55.706 --> 00:32:00.446
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. What makes sense
is to take all the pieces, build a new plan,

443
00:32:01.126 --> 00:32:06.466
Speaker 1: get a v- get invested in that new
plan, and try again. You know, that one might
work

444
00:32:06.506 --> 00:32:10.686
Speaker 1: a little bit, it might work a lot, it
might work not at all, and I have to tear it

445
00:32:10.706 --> 00:32:11.486
Speaker 1: down and make a new one.

446
00:32:13.286 --> 00:32:18.706
Speaker 1: That hurts, but it's not going to
stop me, and that was not true until

447
00:32:19.626 --> 00:32:25.546
Speaker 1: 32 years old. So... And the
difference is I have surrounded myself with

448
00:32:25.606 --> 00:32:30.986
Speaker 1: people who care whether it works to
some extent or another, and I can't let them

449
00:32:31.046 --> 00:32:36.246
Speaker 1: down. Uh, and they, all they do is
they just step in and they just tell me one

450
00:32:36.306 --> 00:32:42.106
Speaker 1: simple truth that I already know is
true. I know I, I could do this if I were a

451
00:32:42.146 --> 00:32:46.966
Speaker 1: robot that I could program. Robot
Steve would have no problem following the new

452
00:32:47.026 --> 00:32:52.086
Speaker 1: path, right? No emotions invested in
it at all. But I'm not that person, and even

453
00:32:52.146 --> 00:32:56.226
Speaker 1: hearing the truth come from a neutral
party, that's enough. Totally dispels the

454
00:32:56.266 --> 00:32:59.726
Speaker 1: anxiety. Like, "Okay, onto the next
thing. No big deal."

455
00:33:00.106 --> 00:33:00.626
Speaker 6: Awesome.

456
00:33:01.466 --> 00:33:01.686
Speaker 1: Yep.

457
00:33:01.786 --> 00:33:07.506
Speaker 6: Awesome. Well, just to be clear,
you're not talking about scrapping the

458
00:33:07.606 --> 00:33:10.046
Speaker 6: idea. You're talking about-

459
00:33:10.126 --> 00:33:10.127
Speaker 1: No

460
00:33:10.126 --> 00:33:12.966
Speaker 6: ... keeping the idea and just
changing your plan.

461
00:33:13.266 --> 00:33:17.806
Speaker 1: Exactly. This is all about my growth
strategy. How do you go from, you know,

462
00:33:18.486 --> 00:33:24.366
Speaker 1: whatever, a couple hundred, uh,
unpaying listeners to a couple thousand

463
00:33:24.586 --> 00:33:28.526
Speaker 1: paying listeners to a couple hundred
thousand paying listeners to a couple million

464
00:33:28.586 --> 00:33:34.206
Speaker 1: paying listeners, right? That
strategy, my initial foray, the, the shot I
took,

465
00:33:34.986 --> 00:33:40.706
Speaker 1: it missed. Like, oh, okay. [laughs]
So the right thing to do is to take a different

466
00:33:40.766 --> 00:33:45.926
Speaker 1: position and take another shot, uh,
which is what I'm going to do. Um, so no, the

467
00:33:46.006 --> 00:33:49.886
Speaker 1: core premise is exactly the same.
What I'm building, the goal is the same. The
goal

468
00:33:49.926 --> 00:33:54.566
Speaker 1: hasn't even changed, but the route to
the goal has fundamentally changed, and that's

469
00:33:54.626 --> 00:33:58.466
Speaker 1: okay. It hurts a little to have that
broken down and to have to start over again

470
00:33:58.486 --> 00:33:59.006
Speaker 1: with a new plan,

471
00:34:00.746 --> 00:34:02.686
Speaker 1: but that's just how it is. That is
this business.

472
00:34:02.706 --> 00:34:04.026
Speaker 6: What does that say about your
mindset?

473
00:34:04.126 --> 00:34:08.626
Speaker 1: [laughs] That I've grown a lot.
[laughs]

474
00:34:08.686 --> 00:34:08.786
Speaker 6: Yeah?

475
00:34:09.306 --> 00:34:14.286
Speaker 1: That the fact that something doesn't
work is not a reflection of me. It's got

476
00:34:14.306 --> 00:34:19.906
Speaker 1: nothing to do with me. To the extent
that I have succeeded more is the more I am

477
00:34:20.006 --> 00:34:24.746
Speaker 1: a... is the amount, relative to the
amount I have pulled my ego out of what I'm

478
00:34:24.786 --> 00:34:30.526
Speaker 1: doing. What I'm doing is not mine.
It's just the way the world

479
00:34:30.586 --> 00:34:36.086
Speaker 1: works. It's a combination of e-
economics and human psychology and

480
00:34:36.166 --> 00:34:39.866
Speaker 1: fundamental rules of the universe
whether a business idea will work or not. You

481
00:34:39.906 --> 00:34:43.086
Speaker 1: could swap me out with another person
trying to do the same thing, and it should

482
00:34:43.146 --> 00:34:48.605
Speaker 1: work, right? It's not mine. It's not
me. Now, I have my own approach. I'm my own

483
00:34:48.665 --> 00:34:53.306
Speaker 1: person who brings my own skill set,
right? All of that changes it, for sure. But

484
00:34:53.326 --> 00:34:57.506
Speaker 1: there's nothing special about me that
makes this work. I am just... This is a, this

485
00:34:57.566 --> 00:35:02.986
Speaker 1: is just a dig. I'm just trying to
find something that is true and utilize it. Uh,
it

486
00:35:03.026 --> 00:35:06.006
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with me as a
person. It's not a reflection of me if it
doesn't

487
00:35:06.046 --> 00:35:11.186
Speaker 1: work. It may be a reflection of my
skill set, where I am, whether I can make it
work

488
00:35:11.226 --> 00:35:16.266
Speaker 1: or not, but it's not a reflection of
me as a person, and I don't judge myself for it

489
00:35:16.306 --> 00:35:18.666
Speaker 1: anymore, and that has helped a lot.

490
00:35:22.366 --> 00:35:24.326
Speaker 6: Well, you seem to be learning a lot.

491
00:35:24.426 --> 00:35:26.366
Speaker 1: [laughs] Yeah. Always better, right?

492
00:35:26.666 --> 00:35:27.206
Speaker 6: Yeah, right.

493
00:35:27.866 --> 00:35:29.906
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this when you
asked earlier.

494
00:35:31.746 --> 00:35:36.306
Speaker 1: I've been at this for a long time
now, making stories, producing them into audio

495
00:35:36.426 --> 00:35:41.706
Speaker 1: stories, and the way I got better was
by,

496
00:35:43.046 --> 00:35:46.826
Speaker 1: I don't wanna say not caring about
the quality, but caring about the velocity and

497
00:35:46.866 --> 00:35:51.766
Speaker 1: not the position. To get into a
physics term, the position is totally irrelevant

498
00:35:52.346 --> 00:35:55.986
Speaker 1: except for the fact that I need it to
be at a certain position to be, to reach my

499
00:35:56.026 --> 00:35:57.646
Speaker 1: goals, right? That's the only reason
I care.

500
00:35:58.326 --> 00:35:58.506
Speaker 6: Sure.

501
00:35:58.766 --> 00:36:04.186
Speaker 1: When I say position, I mean a
quantitative measure of skill. Can I produce the
thing

502
00:36:04.266 --> 00:36:09.826
Speaker 1: I need to produce in whatever skill?
I have focused only on quantity

503
00:36:09.946 --> 00:36:15.886
Speaker 1: produced. How much can I make, and am
I improving? I

504
00:36:15.906 --> 00:36:21.486
Speaker 1: don't care how bad I am. I do not
care how bad I am at all. Am I improving? And I

505
00:36:21.566 --> 00:36:26.766
Speaker 1: fixated on that, and that made all
the difference. I stopped caring whether it was

506
00:36:26.806 --> 00:36:31.846
Speaker 1: bad right now, and I cared only about
is it getting better, am I making enough?

507
00:36:32.606 --> 00:36:38.446
Speaker 6: So you dropped your perfectionism in
order to reach new heights

508
00:36:38.606 --> 00:36:39.506
Speaker 6: as far as skill?

509
00:36:40.578 --> 00:36:44.958
Speaker 1: Yes, but perfectionism even is too
simple because it, perfectionism implies that I

510
00:36:44.978 --> 00:36:48.078
Speaker 1: think it could be perfect if I spend
enough time on it. I don't even believe that

511
00:36:48.118 --> 00:36:52.858
Speaker 1: anymore. I believe I have a, I have a
fixed ceiling on what I can produce with my

512
00:36:52.978 --> 00:36:56.978
Speaker 1: current skill level. Now, the skill
level can increase, which means the ceiling can

513
00:36:57.018 --> 00:37:02.458
Speaker 1: go up, but it does not make sense to
try and push the ceiling higher from where I

514
00:37:02.578 --> 00:37:07.178
Speaker 1: am. I need to practice to raise the
ceiling. It doesn't make sense to just

515
00:37:08.598 --> 00:37:13.118
Speaker 1: work, bash myself against this
project over and over and over again because
that is

516
00:37:13.158 --> 00:37:19.038
Speaker 1: not going to improve me. What I need
to do is get it out into the world, learn from

517
00:37:19.098 --> 00:37:23.658
Speaker 1: it, get feedback, whether that's my
own feedback or somebody else's, learn from it,

518
00:37:23.758 --> 00:37:27.398
Speaker 1: and take that into the next project,
and then make that one better. Because now my

519
00:37:27.458 --> 00:37:31.258
Speaker 1: ceiling is higher, what is the point
of spending 10 times longer on this thing when

520
00:37:31.278 --> 00:37:34.658
Speaker 1: I'm hitting against the same ceiling,
when I could just raise the ceiling? So I have

521
00:37:34.698 --> 00:37:39.638
Speaker 1: fixated on raising the ceiling of
what I can produce rather than trying to make it

522
00:37:39.678 --> 00:37:44.858
Speaker 1: the best it can possibly be. Because
I have seen more gains faster,

523
00:37:44.978 --> 00:37:49.578
Speaker 1: paradoxically, by caring about the
quality of the work. Like, I am trying to push

524
00:37:49.618 --> 00:37:53.298
Speaker 1: myself, but the moment I feel like I
start hitting that skill ceiling, I'm getting

525
00:37:53.338 --> 00:37:56.658
Speaker 1: diminishing returns. Like, yeah,
okay, I could spend 10 more hours on this sound

526
00:37:56.678 --> 00:38:01.318
Speaker 1: effect to get it perfect, but am I
going to learn from that? Or will I learn from

527
00:38:01.358 --> 00:38:05.218
Speaker 1: making 100 more sound effects like it
in that amount of time? The answer is

528
00:38:05.278 --> 00:38:10.078
Speaker 1: obviously the second one, and I have
grown so much faster because of it.

529
00:38:11.238 --> 00:38:17.238
Speaker 6: So what you're interested in is
seeing a progress growth as far as skills.
You're

530
00:38:17.278 --> 00:38:21.858
Speaker 6: comparing yourself, your current
self, against your skill level last week or last

531
00:38:21.918 --> 00:38:24.978
Speaker 6: month, and as long as the graph is
up, then-

532
00:38:24.998 --> 00:38:25.298
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

533
00:38:25.298 --> 00:38:26.658
Speaker 6: ... that's your goal.

534
00:38:26.938 --> 00:38:32.918
Speaker 1: Yeah. I fundamentally value myself as
a human being for whether I am on the path.

535
00:38:32.998 --> 00:38:36.118
Speaker 1: It's a concept I came up with, like,
I don't know how many years ago, seven or eight

536
00:38:36.138 --> 00:38:41.538
Speaker 1: years ago in a journal. The path
being a line that moves up and to the right. If
I

537
00:38:41.598 --> 00:38:46.498
Speaker 1: am improving as a person, and you
kinda know whether you're improving or not,

538
00:38:46.578 --> 00:38:51.078
Speaker 1: whether you've gone horizontal or
down, you know pretty quickly whether you feel

539
00:38:51.118 --> 00:38:56.038
Speaker 1: like you've ha- made progress lately.
If I am making progress, I am satisfied with

540
00:38:56.078 --> 00:38:59.818
Speaker 1: myself as a person. Now, I try to
crank the knobs on that progress to try and

541
00:38:59.858 --> 00:39:05.278
Speaker 1: improve as much as possible, but I
don't value myself for how fast that goes. I

542
00:39:05.338 --> 00:39:10.538
Speaker 1: value myself for am I sincerely
trying to improve myself? If yes, and I am
growing

543
00:39:10.578 --> 00:39:16.498
Speaker 1: as a person in some way, we're good.
That's all I ask of myself in life. Am I

544
00:39:16.558 --> 00:39:22.338
Speaker 1: improving? Even a little bit, even a
tiny, tiny, tiny bit, it counts. I call that

545
00:39:22.358 --> 00:39:26.758
Speaker 1: being on the path. You're either off
the path or on the path, and when you decide,

546
00:39:26.818 --> 00:39:30.698
Speaker 1: when you realize you're off the path,
all you have to do is say, "Okay, I'm back on

547
00:39:30.738 --> 00:39:34.438
Speaker 1: the path now. I'm gonna go improve
myself again." Because sometimes you don't want

548
00:39:34.478 --> 00:39:35.838
Speaker 1: to improve because it hurts.

549
00:39:36.938 --> 00:39:41.878
Speaker 6: That's cool. Um, I call it forward
movement. It helps me sometimes to create a

550
00:39:41.918 --> 00:39:46.778
Speaker 6: phrase like that. Forward movement
is, I call it that because it's meaningful for

551
00:39:46.818 --> 00:39:46.958
Speaker 6: me.

552
00:39:47.078 --> 00:39:47.079
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

553
00:39:47.098 --> 00:39:51.358
Speaker 6: But if it's not meaningful for
somebody else, then they can find their own
phrase-

554
00:39:51.378 --> 00:39:52.138
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, make your own thing

555
00:39:52.158 --> 00:39:52.438
Speaker 6: ... and make it, yeah

556
00:39:52.458 --> 00:39:56.278
Speaker 1: But that's like the ultimate gut
check. When everything is crazy, everything is

557
00:39:56.318 --> 00:40:00.498
Speaker 1: going wrong, nothing seems to be
going my way, am I on the path?

558
00:40:00.798 --> 00:40:00.858
Speaker 6: Yeah.

559
00:40:00.898 --> 00:40:05.398
Speaker 1: Yes or no. It's binary. If yes, I'm
doing the right thing. It literally does not

560
00:40:05.438 --> 00:40:09.198
Speaker 1: matter what I'm doing or whether it
works or not because I'm doing the right thing.

561
00:40:09.558 --> 00:40:13.218
Speaker 1: If no, that's the only way I could be
doing the wrong thing. I could be making a

562
00:40:13.238 --> 00:40:17.038
Speaker 1: billion dollars a year and not being
improving myself, and I'm doing the wrong

563
00:40:17.118 --> 00:40:17.878
Speaker 1: thing. That's how I feel.

564
00:40:17.878 --> 00:40:22.238
Speaker 6: And you don't mean in a narcissistic
way. You mean in a healthy way.

565
00:40:22.538 --> 00:40:26.858
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, but because to
improve myself in a narcissistic way would not
be

566
00:40:26.898 --> 00:40:32.058
Speaker 1: improvement. So it would be, because
that's not what I value. That's not who I want

567
00:40:32.098 --> 00:40:36.038
Speaker 1: to be, and I would not consider that
improvement. I would consider that an illusion,

568
00:40:36.598 --> 00:40:38.758
Speaker 1: and that would be false, and I would
not be improving.

569
00:40:48.078 --> 00:40:49.718
Speaker 3: You, you, you let it out?

570
00:40:50.438 --> 00:40:54.158
Speaker 2: He only has access to 30% of the
designed weapon systems.

571
00:40:54.858 --> 00:40:59.478
Speaker 3: It's an abomination. Who knows what
the Japanese hid in that tech?

572
00:41:00.357 --> 00:41:05.958
Speaker 2: Gabriel ignored both lines of
argument. This wasn't about public safety or
blasphemy

573
00:41:06.038 --> 00:41:10.538
Speaker 2: or espionage. What would the now
deceased Japanese research team hide anyway?

574
00:41:11.218 --> 00:41:15.478
Speaker 2: Professor Saitama had been honorable
and faithful to their shared cause until the

575
00:41:15.538 --> 00:41:20.538
Speaker 2: very end. Gabriel felt that it was
sometimes better to let a friend stab you in the

576
00:41:20.598 --> 00:41:26.478
Speaker 2: back, to fully trust some people, and
simply hope for the best. Lucius

577
00:41:26.538 --> 00:41:28.158
Speaker 2: was not one of those people.

578
00:41:33.038 --> 00:41:37.998
Speaker 6: You're talking about improving your
skills. What specific skills are you talking

579
00:41:38.058 --> 00:41:39.698
Speaker 6: about for Collected Stories?

580
00:41:40.858 --> 00:41:46.858
Speaker 1: So I have them listed. Um, I'm
maniacal about this. Uh, I have become that. I
don't

581
00:41:46.958 --> 00:41:51.518
Speaker 1: start this way. I feel like I really
need to hone in on that point. I did not start

582
00:41:51.578 --> 00:41:57.478
Speaker 1: this way. I decided to become this
way, and it didn't happen overnight. It happened

583
00:41:57.578 --> 00:42:03.438
Speaker 1: in fits and spurts, and it was slow
and winding. That's how I got here. I have a

584
00:42:03.498 --> 00:42:07.898
Speaker 1: list of the skills I want to master
and to what level I want to get to them in. I

585
00:42:07.938 --> 00:42:11.198
Speaker 1: have a list of the things I need to
get good at and then immediately get rid of

586
00:42:11.258 --> 00:42:14.838
Speaker 1: because I don't want to be good at
them. I have an order in which I want to get rid

587
00:42:14.878 --> 00:42:19.718
Speaker 1: of the skills. So in short, they are
narration. I need to get roughly to an 8 out of

588
00:42:19.778 --> 00:42:22.798
Speaker 1: 10, a 10 being world-class. Uh, so an
8 is very-

589
00:42:22.838 --> 00:42:23.898
Speaker 6: You mean your performance?

590
00:42:24.278 --> 00:42:28.978
Speaker 1: Yes. So 8 being very good because
that is what I need to beli- that is what I

591
00:42:29.018 --> 00:42:32.918
Speaker 1: believe I need to be at to
convincingly sell stories, right? That doesn't
mean I'm

592
00:42:32.978 --> 00:42:37.578
Speaker 1: always gonna be the narrator. That is
good enough to me. Writing, roughly 8 or 9 out

593
00:42:37.598 --> 00:42:41.498
Speaker 1: of 10. You see a common trend here.
Sound design, because that's right at the point

594
00:42:41.538 --> 00:42:46.698
Speaker 1: of diminishing returns. The
difference between an 8 and a 10, most people
will never

595
00:42:46.738 --> 00:42:48.978
Speaker 1: notice. Only the, the biggest-

596
00:42:50.708 --> 00:42:53.848
Speaker 1: Only the people who truly understand
the craft will know the difference at that

597
00:42:53.868 --> 00:42:57.348
Speaker 1: level. It's such fine-grained
details. You can hit the high notes. You, you're
gonna

598
00:42:57.388 --> 00:43:01.948
Speaker 1: get 90% of the results. Yes, the best
in the world will be able to outdo you, and

599
00:43:02.008 --> 00:43:05.848
Speaker 1: yes, some people will notice on a
subconscious level what is truly master class
and

600
00:43:05.888 --> 00:43:06.288
Speaker 1: what isn't.

601
00:43:07.828 --> 00:43:11.968
Speaker 1: But you just need to get to a point
where you can sell. I say you, as in me, because

602
00:43:12.008 --> 00:43:15.948
Speaker 1: this is... It all comes back to where
my goals come from. I know what I need to do,

603
00:43:16.248 --> 00:43:20.908
Speaker 1: and from that, all other choices
become clear. Now that I know what I need to do,

604
00:43:21.508 --> 00:43:25.328
Speaker 1: what skills do I need to get there? I
literally wrote them all out. Okay, now which

605
00:43:25.388 --> 00:43:29.688
Speaker 1: ones do I actually want to be good
at? And so I very quickly crossed out the ones I

606
00:43:29.708 --> 00:43:32.448
Speaker 1: didn't wanna do. I don't wanna be an
actor. I don't wanna be an actor. It doesn't

607
00:43:32.468 --> 00:43:36.508
Speaker 1: motivate me. I don't care about that.
And ultimately, I don't wanna be the editor. I

608
00:43:36.528 --> 00:43:39.568
Speaker 1: don't wanna do the mixing. Uh,
there's a lot of things I don't wanna be great
at,

609
00:43:39.668 --> 00:43:43.208
Speaker 1: but there are things I do want to be
great at, even if I do eventually outsource

610
00:43:43.228 --> 00:43:48.048
Speaker 1: them. And primarily because I love
it, and because I love it, I know I will be
great

611
00:43:48.108 --> 00:43:49.828
Speaker 1: at it if I continue to put in the
time.

612
00:43:49.948 --> 00:43:51.588
Speaker 6: What are those things that you wanna
be great at?

613
00:43:51.948 --> 00:43:55.147
Speaker 1: Uh, sound design, narration, writing.

614
00:43:56.868 --> 00:43:59.608
Speaker 1: There are some that I want to be good
at, and there's a lot of those.

615
00:43:59.988 --> 00:44:01.988
Speaker 6: What are some things you wanna be
good at?

616
00:44:02.908 --> 00:44:05.968
Speaker 1: Mixing, editing, directing.

617
00:44:07.508 --> 00:44:13.008
Speaker 1: Um, I need to be slightly better at
drawing. I need to be good enough at music

618
00:44:13.508 --> 00:44:17.668
Speaker 1: composing, uh, and production in
order to be able to guide the people under me,
and

619
00:44:17.708 --> 00:44:22.368
Speaker 1: to be able to talk what they talk,
uh, in an intelligent way to get the best out of

620
00:44:22.428 --> 00:44:25.908
Speaker 1: them. So those are all... I need to
be able to do everything on the team, for the

621
00:44:25.948 --> 00:44:30.888
Speaker 1: most part, uh, to at least an
adequate degree. But the three things I'm going
to be

622
00:44:30.948 --> 00:44:36.448
Speaker 1: great at are narration, writing,
sound design. Now, narration of those three is
the

623
00:44:36.508 --> 00:44:41.248
Speaker 1: one I care the least about. And that
may sound bizarre, but I, I believe that the

624
00:44:41.288 --> 00:44:44.748
Speaker 1: writing is the most important. If
that foundation is not good, nothing else
matters.

625
00:44:45.308 --> 00:44:49.388
Speaker 1: Fantas- fantastic sound design and
acting on top of crappy writing, literally
nobody

626
00:44:49.428 --> 00:44:54.408
Speaker 1: gonna care, right? Sound design is
right after that. It's so important to the

627
00:44:54.468 --> 00:44:59.748
Speaker 1: immersion of the story. Narration, as
long as I am convincing, I care

628
00:45:00.088 --> 00:45:04.628
Speaker 1: less about the perfectionism there.
It just has to be good enough that you don't

629
00:45:04.688 --> 00:45:09.288
Speaker 1: notice me. I want to fall into the
background to the point where the narrator

630
00:45:09.328 --> 00:45:09.988
Speaker 1: becomes

631
00:45:11.648 --> 00:45:15.828
Speaker 1: immersive, essentially, to the point
where I'm just telling you what is happening

632
00:45:15.888 --> 00:45:19.728
Speaker 1: and you don't hear my voice anymore.
You just see the story that is unfolding in

633
00:45:19.768 --> 00:45:23.408
Speaker 1: your imagination. That's the point I
need to get to. I don't need to get to the

634
00:45:23.448 --> 00:45:27.148
Speaker 1: point where you're like, "Wow, this
guy's a great narrator." I don't care about

635
00:45:27.208 --> 00:45:31.788
Speaker 1: that. I just need to get to the point
where I fall away. You don't notice what I'm

636
00:45:31.848 --> 00:45:35.088
Speaker 1: saying anymore. Like, "Eh, that
sounded weird," or, "That sounded stupid," or,
"That

637
00:45:35.108 --> 00:45:40.348
Speaker 1: was bad acting." Once I get past that
point, it's good enough, right? The writing

638
00:45:40.368 --> 00:45:41.888
Speaker 1: and sound design needs to be a little
bit higher.

639
00:45:43.328 --> 00:45:49.208
Speaker 6: Well, the stories are really great,
and you a- actually, you have rules for your

640
00:45:49.288 --> 00:45:49.888
Speaker 6: stories, right?

641
00:45:50.008 --> 00:45:50.128
Speaker 1: I do.

642
00:45:50.148 --> 00:45:55.368
Speaker 6: Even though they're, they're
multi-part stories, right? They're like four,
five, or

643
00:45:55.448 --> 00:46:01.088
Speaker 6: six, or 12 parts, but that's it. And
then there's another story, and then there's

644
00:46:01.148 --> 00:46:01.808
Speaker 6: another story.

645
00:46:02.208 --> 00:46:02.508
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

646
00:46:02.928 --> 00:46:06.688
Speaker 6: But, but you said you wrote down
rules for your world-

647
00:46:06.748 --> 00:46:07.548
Speaker 1: Yeah, and-

648
00:46:07.548 --> 00:46:10.848
Speaker 6: ... that all of the stories have to,
uh, live by.

649
00:46:11.328 --> 00:46:17.088
Speaker 1: Yes, I do have rules. So I have a
theory as to what makes a satisfying story in
this

650
00:46:17.148 --> 00:46:21.988
Speaker 1: format, and this is why I'm... One of
the reasons I'm so excited beyond just the

651
00:46:22.028 --> 00:46:24.788
Speaker 1: format. Okay, so it's immersive audio
story. It's cool. Yeah, whatever, right?

652
00:46:25.368 --> 00:46:28.668
Speaker 1: Anyone can do it, right? There's not
that much bar of a competition. Anyone can

653
00:46:28.788 --> 00:46:31.628
Speaker 1: learn how to do the sound design and
the voice acting and all that, and the

654
00:46:31.668 --> 00:46:35.008
Speaker 1: directing. They can put it together,
right? This isn't rocket science. People can

655
00:46:35.068 --> 00:46:38.648
Speaker 1: figure this out, and they have
figured out in the past. So what makes me
special

656
00:46:38.688 --> 00:46:42.628
Speaker 1: then, right? What do I have over
Graphic Audio or any of these Audible originals
or

657
00:46:42.688 --> 00:46:47.288
Speaker 1: audio dramas that are coming out? And
I think that there are layers on top of this

658
00:46:47.828 --> 00:46:52.828
Speaker 1: that in time are going to make the
difference. At first, I need to make the core

659
00:46:52.868 --> 00:46:58.828
Speaker 1: product good, right? The stories.
Beyond that, I have a, a set of codified rules

660
00:46:58.868 --> 00:47:03.628
Speaker 1: for what I think every story I make
and every story that I involve other people in,

661
00:47:03.908 --> 00:47:08.008
Speaker 1: these are the rules they need to play
by. I have a very strict rule book as to what

662
00:47:08.048 --> 00:47:11.448
Speaker 1: makes a good story in this format,
because this format is more than just immersive

663
00:47:11.527 --> 00:47:15.508
Speaker 1: audio. It has a set of rules too. So
some of them are things like, just to make it

664
00:47:15.548 --> 00:47:20.068
Speaker 1: concrete, have characters that are
flawed but not stupid, are self-aware and

665
00:47:20.108 --> 00:47:24.308
Speaker 1: motivated enough to not frustrate the
reader. And that sounds simple, but how many

666
00:47:24.368 --> 00:47:27.448
Speaker 1: books and how many times have you
been frustrated by a character that has an own

667
00:47:27.508 --> 00:47:32.028
Speaker 1: goal, right? It's a typical romance
plot where they both misunderstand something,

668
00:47:32.068 --> 00:47:35.328
Speaker 1: and then they go off, and it's
totally contrived. You know, like, this is so
stupid.

669
00:47:35.408 --> 00:47:38.448
Speaker 1: If they would literally have a
one-minute conversation, they could resolve this
in a

670
00:47:38.508 --> 00:47:42.608
Speaker 1: second. Nah, I'm not doing that. If
they have pro- Now, that doesn't mean that two

671
00:47:42.648 --> 00:47:46.408
Speaker 1: people can't come to, in conflict
with each other. They will. But if they do, it's

672
00:47:46.448 --> 00:47:50.908
Speaker 1: for reasons that make sense to you.
In fact, that is because the next rule is most

673
00:47:50.948 --> 00:47:56.648
Speaker 1: conflict comes from hard choices,
opposing but plausible worldviews or

674
00:47:56.728 --> 00:48:01.568
Speaker 1: forces of nature, not own goals or
deus ex machina. All right, so it's these kinds

675
00:48:01.628 --> 00:48:04.008
Speaker 1: of rules, and I've got a lot of them.
Um-

676
00:48:04.048 --> 00:48:06.028
Speaker 6: Did you make them up yourself or...?

677
00:48:06.288 --> 00:48:10.208
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, but the, everything is
derived from something else. But yes. Uh, but

678
00:48:10.308 --> 00:48:14.788
Speaker 1: yes, these are rules that I, I have
codified, and every story I write will follow

679
00:48:14.828 --> 00:48:15.888
Speaker 1: these rules to the T.

680
00:48:16.328 --> 00:48:20.648
Speaker 6: Why? Why do you have rules that all
your stories have to adhere to?

681
00:48:21.408 --> 00:48:26.448
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it is, and it's...
This kind of structure seems imposing. Like,

682
00:48:26.548 --> 00:48:30.448
Speaker 1: okay, great, so anyone I ask has to
follow all this huge list of rules? Like, that's

683
00:48:30.488 --> 00:48:34.768
Speaker 1: kind of ridiculous. But I have
learned more and more that the structure sets
you

684
00:48:34.828 --> 00:48:39.828
Speaker 1: free. Because the very last rule is,
and everything else is pure potential.

685
00:48:40.608 --> 00:48:46.328
Speaker 1: Because human beings, the way our
brains work, we do horrible in a vacuum.

686
00:48:47.688 --> 00:48:51.640
Speaker 1: Limitless possibility is the worst
possible thing you could do to creativity. It

687
00:48:51.720 --> 00:48:56.420
Speaker 1: sounds insane to say that, but the
moment you start adding structure, if you give

688
00:48:56.480 --> 00:49:00.180
Speaker 1: somebody a blank canvas and like a
marker and you say, make something wonderful,

689
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:04.100
Speaker 1: they're going to be like, I don't
know what to do. But if they're like, you have
to

690
00:49:04.140 --> 00:49:07.080
Speaker 1: do this, this, this, and this, you
can only use these colors. You can only use
these

691
00:49:07.120 --> 00:49:12.460
Speaker 1: shapes. Now watch them go and they'll
just go right into the task. It's crazy. Too

692
00:49:12.500 --> 00:49:17.680
Speaker 1: much ambiguity is bad. So all of
these rules pin you in. Now they pin you in in
such

693
00:49:17.740 --> 00:49:21.660
Speaker 1: a way that anything inside these
bounds, inside these boundaries is going to be a

694
00:49:21.700 --> 00:49:26.520
Speaker 1: good story, right? And there's so
much space left here for potential. It doesn't

695
00:49:26.560 --> 00:49:30.920
Speaker 1: even matter. There's infinite stories
still within this space to get mathematical.

696
00:49:31.860 --> 00:49:34.760
Speaker 6: Well, there are only eight notes on
the piano.

697
00:49:35.060 --> 00:49:40.100
Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Yeah, you're right. That's
a great point. Exactly like that. The structure

698
00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:44.440
Speaker 1: sets you free. So I'm pinning you
into a specific kind of structure.

699
00:49:46.080 --> 00:49:49.820
Speaker 1: And I think that something else that
I'm excited about is how can I make that even

700
00:49:49.860 --> 00:49:53.400
Speaker 1: cooler? How can I make this not like
a top-down thing where I'm hitting people over

701
00:49:53.440 --> 00:49:55.460
Speaker 1: the head with, oh, you forgot rule
number seven here?

702
00:49:58.140 --> 00:50:03.760
Speaker 1: And the way I did that is that part
of my story world, my story world, which is

703
00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:08.420
Speaker 1: going to be our story world, is a
community-driven multiverse, which I've called
the

704
00:50:08.460 --> 00:50:12.940
Speaker 1: Eternium. And this is a very fancy
way of saying that if you make a story on our

705
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:18.680
Speaker 1: platform, it isn't just a story. It's
a story world. And that world is an

706
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:23.100
Speaker 1: actual place in the canon. All of
these stories are in the world. So as long as it

707
00:50:23.140 --> 00:50:27.360
Speaker 1: meets these bars, as long as it
passes all these rules in some editorial
process,

708
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:33.020
Speaker 1: right? That's TBD. It's canon. Your
story world lives next to mine.

709
00:50:33.900 --> 00:50:38.780
Speaker 1: And while they have some method of
interacting, and we won't get into that, because

710
00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:43.440
Speaker 1: they follow all the rules, they fit
into our world. Furthermore, there is like a

711
00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:48.840
Speaker 1: pantheon of gods above all of this.
And those are the creatures, the intelligent,

712
00:50:50.120 --> 00:50:54.540
Speaker 1: sometimes malevolent forces that are
enforcing all these rules. The reason that only

713
00:50:54.580 --> 00:50:58.880
Speaker 1: these worlds can exist in this
multiverse is because every single one of these
rules

714
00:50:58.940 --> 00:51:04.820
Speaker 1: is personified by some, you know,
sometimes malevolent deity who wants this

715
00:51:04.860 --> 00:51:10.780
Speaker 1: thing, right? There's the revealers,
one of the main gods, like goddesses. She

716
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:16.700
Speaker 1: wants basically to reveal secrets.
And that motivation causes you to have stories

717
00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:22.080
Speaker 1: which feed the reader mysteries, but
slowly unveil them, right? You don't have, and

718
00:51:22.100 --> 00:51:26.020
Speaker 1: this is to prevent you from doing
things like loose threads, loose plot lines,

719
00:51:26.560 --> 00:51:32.240
Speaker 1: having no mystery, right? I'm just
codifying what is already a common story

720
00:51:32.300 --> 00:51:36.380
Speaker 1: trope. You hint at something weird,
like you tease some readers with some mystery,

721
00:51:36.900 --> 00:51:41.180
Speaker 1: and then later you pay them off,
right? You pay back that debt. All I'm doing is

722
00:51:41.240 --> 00:51:45.340
Speaker 1: taking that rule and I'm making even
the rules themselves part of the story world.

723
00:51:46.720 --> 00:51:50.580
Speaker 1: So, you know, that part's an
experiment. We'll see if it works. But I feel
like that

724
00:51:50.640 --> 00:51:54.860
Speaker 1: turns something which would be
annoying to anybody working with me into
something,

725
00:51:54.940 --> 00:51:59.800
Speaker 1: okay, cool. Now I can use this. Now
these rules are actual characters and these

726
00:51:59.860 --> 00:52:05.260
Speaker 1: characters come into conflict with
each other. And I can use that in my story. That

727
00:52:05.300 --> 00:52:06.040
Speaker 1: gets me excited.

728
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:09.300
Speaker 5: Good evening, Francesca.

729
00:52:12.520 --> 00:52:13.540
Speaker 5: Something on my face?

730
00:52:15.060 --> 00:52:19.380
Speaker 5: No, sir. I'm just about to sit down
to dinner. Come on in.

731
00:52:20.300 --> 00:52:25.680
Speaker 1: She hesitated at the doorway. Was
that an invitation or a dismissal?

732
00:52:26.120 --> 00:52:29.060
Speaker 5: Seriously, come in. It's okay to let
your hair down.

733
00:52:29.940 --> 00:52:35.460
Speaker 1: Fran moved to see if her hood was
still up. Yes, it was. Should she let her hair

734
00:52:35.520 --> 00:52:41.200
Speaker 1: down? Why was that important? The
archbishop shook his head and smiled warmly at

735
00:52:41.240 --> 00:52:46.380
Speaker 1: her. So she took that as an
invitation and closed the door behind her. She
stopped

736
00:52:46.420 --> 00:52:50.400
Speaker 1: trying to read the man's expression
and got right down to business, where she was

737
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:51.300
Speaker 1: most comfortable.

738
00:52:52.340 --> 00:52:56.800
Speaker 5: I found another file in Saitama's
data dump. You're gonna wanna see this.

739
00:52:57.240 --> 00:53:01.240
Speaker 1: She walked over to where Gabriel sat
at his desk and set her tablet down in front of

740
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:07.080
Speaker 1: him. Fran swiped through the
blueprints, stopping on the artist's impression
of the

741
00:53:07.120 --> 00:53:13.099
Speaker 1: final product, which was incredibly
dramatic. Gabriel stopped chewing, his eyes

742
00:53:13.180 --> 00:53:14.040
Speaker 1: opened wide.

743
00:53:15.160 --> 00:53:20.180
Speaker 5: How would we even build something
like that? We can't. It's as tall as a building.

744
00:53:22.080 --> 00:53:23.920
Speaker 5: It looks like it's straight out of an
anime.

745
00:53:24.620 --> 00:53:29.360
Speaker 1: Fran nodded enthusiastically. They
had maybe 10% of the materials needed to

746
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:33.800
Speaker 1: construct it. Not that they would
even try. It would be an egregious waste of

747
00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:38.960
Speaker 1: resources. There was a reason tanks
didn't have legs. It was simply impractical.

748
00:53:39.740 --> 00:53:41.680
Speaker 1: Gabriel scratched his chin
thoughtfully.

749
00:53:42.700 --> 00:53:45.800
Speaker 5: Maybe we could make a smaller one.

750
00:53:48.100 --> 00:53:49.260
Speaker 6: Tell me about Mortal Steel.

751
00:53:49.740 --> 00:53:53.860
Speaker 1: So that is the show I'm currently
airing, right? This is the first full season. So

752
00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:59.460
Speaker 1: for seven-ish months, all I did was
write, produce stories for the Monopause

753
00:53:59.520 --> 00:54:05.040
Speaker 1: podcast feed. Like I said, I was
obsessed with quantity and progress. That's all

754
00:54:05.100 --> 00:54:08.900
Speaker 1: that was. So my theory there, I had a
second goal. My theory was

755
00:54:10.900 --> 00:54:16.420
Speaker 1: I am building a backlog of content.
Like I'm building the first two episodes of long

756
00:54:16.520 --> 00:54:22.420
Speaker 1: form stories so that when I launch
this thing, I'm not just going, can I write a
new

757
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:27.180
Speaker 1: story? Can I keep them excited? Like
I have this huge catalog of potential, right?

758
00:54:27.420 --> 00:54:31.160
Speaker 1: Now I'm going to have to rework all
of them, right? They're not ready. Mortal Steel

759
00:54:31.200 --> 00:54:35.380
Speaker 1: was just one of the 12 stories that I
released. So I basically, when I was ready to

760
00:54:35.420 --> 00:54:38.880
Speaker 1: launch the first season, I'm like,
okay, I'll pick from these 12 stories. Which one

761
00:54:38.920 --> 00:54:43.040
Speaker 1: of these has the most potential? Not
even that. For the very first one, I said to

762
00:54:43.080 --> 00:54:47.800
Speaker 1: myself, which one will teach me the
most? Which one am I the most excited about?

763
00:54:48.460 --> 00:54:51.820
Speaker 1: Forget what anyone else wants. What
am I the most excited about? Because if I'm

764
00:54:51.860 --> 00:54:56.704
Speaker 1: excited about it, it's going to come
through in my work. If I don't care, even if

765
00:54:56.724 --> 00:55:00.124
Speaker 1: it's the best story I think to launch
with from a business perspective, or even for

766
00:55:00.164 --> 00:55:05.504
Speaker 1: reader interest, I knew that if I
loved it, it would be the best one.

767
00:55:06.284 --> 00:55:10.324
Speaker 1: Uh, which is kind of
counterintuitive. So Mortal Steel was that one.
Uh, it's based

768
00:55:10.364 --> 00:55:15.544
Speaker 1: on a short story I wrote a long time
ago. It is a story, the tagline is, "Pastor

769
00:55:15.644 --> 00:55:19.884
Speaker 1: Ethan Cutter, cyborg and ordained
priest, has come to bring a little faith and

770
00:55:19.964 --> 00:55:24.684
Speaker 1: justice to old Los Angeles. The ruins
of old Los Angeles." And that's the tagline.

771
00:55:25.484 --> 00:55:29.884
Speaker 1: So you kinda get it. It's been
described as campy, and I don't pretend that
it's the

772
00:55:29.924 --> 00:55:33.064
Speaker 1: best thing ever. It's n- again, it's
not about that. You already know what I value

773
00:55:33.104 --> 00:55:38.844
Speaker 1: myself for. I value myself for making
things as fast as possible and improving.

774
00:55:39.424 --> 00:55:40.304
Speaker 3: It's not campy.

775
00:55:40.884 --> 00:55:41.444
Speaker 1: Okay. [laughs]

776
00:55:41.464 --> 00:55:42.624
Speaker 3: It's cool. Okay?

777
00:55:43.264 --> 00:55:44.464
Speaker 1: It all depends on your perspective.

778
00:55:44.524 --> 00:55:46.784
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, nothing is for
everybody.

779
00:55:47.104 --> 00:55:52.544
Speaker 1: Right. If you, if you think Die Hard
is stupid, this is not for you. If you think

780
00:55:52.584 --> 00:55:57.264
Speaker 1: Die Hard is awesome, this is for you,
right? That's it. Like, I knew my audience,

781
00:55:57.364 --> 00:56:01.564
Speaker 1: right? And that's what it is. If you
think action movies are dumb, then this isn't

782
00:56:01.604 --> 00:56:05.024
Speaker 1: for you. It's not just an action
movie. I mean, it has real characters and real

783
00:56:05.064 --> 00:56:10.224
Speaker 1: things are happening, and I treat it
with... I give it both a head nod to I know

784
00:56:10.284 --> 00:56:15.024
Speaker 1: this is dumb, but it's also cool.
And, but also, like, hey, there's a real story

785
00:56:15.064 --> 00:56:19.584
Speaker 1: here too. Uh, because, you know, you
have to actually care about the characters. Um,

786
00:56:20.384 --> 00:56:25.884
Speaker 1: so yeah, that's the story. Um, I,
what I'm most excited about is not my story or

787
00:56:25.924 --> 00:56:29.524
Speaker 1: what I wrote, it's the people who
brought it to life. So there's a team of 10
voice

788
00:56:29.624 --> 00:56:34.964
Speaker 1: actors. They're incredible. Uh, they
really are, and these people are essentially

789
00:56:35.024 --> 00:56:38.704
Speaker 1: volunteers, right? You know, they
were paid a pittance more or less, and the
promise

790
00:56:38.784 --> 00:56:41.464
Speaker 1: of, "Ah, I promise there will be more
stories [laughs] in the future. We're gonna

791
00:56:41.504 --> 00:56:46.164
Speaker 1: make money eventually." Right? They
were paid mostly on promises. Um, and they

792
00:56:46.224 --> 00:56:51.584
Speaker 1: killed it. They really did. Um, it is
incredible what you can get out of people who

793
00:56:51.624 --> 00:56:55.544
Speaker 1: are motivated to help you with your
cause. Not even because it's your cause. It has

794
00:56:55.684 --> 00:57:01.104
Speaker 1: nothing to do with me. They are
motivated to work on something cool, and that is

795
00:57:01.124 --> 00:57:06.784
Speaker 1: what I focused on for this
production, is how can I make this seem so cool
that

796
00:57:06.864 --> 00:57:11.184
Speaker 1: people would be dying to be a part of
it? And that's what I did, and that's what

797
00:57:11.244 --> 00:57:13.144
Speaker 1: worked. It had nothing to do with me.

798
00:57:13.644 --> 00:57:16.324
Speaker 3: What was it like working with voice
actors for the first time?

799
00:57:16.784 --> 00:57:22.424
Speaker 1: It was initially terrifying. Uh, it
is an entirely different skill set, learning how

800
00:57:22.444 --> 00:57:24.544
Speaker 1: to direct people in a way that is
both

801
00:57:26.324 --> 00:57:29.804
Speaker 1: constructive. So all you theater
people out here, you already get it. Like, you

802
00:57:29.824 --> 00:57:33.744
Speaker 1: don't need... [laughs] You're not
learning anything. Uh, but in a way that makes
the

803
00:57:33.784 --> 00:57:38.784
Speaker 1: performance better, and what your
story needs most importantly. Better is like,
you

804
00:57:38.824 --> 00:57:43.884
Speaker 1: know, what does that mean? It fit...
I tell every voice actor now at this point,

805
00:57:44.144 --> 00:57:49.064
Speaker 1: there is a range for this character.
There is a, a range of space where your

806
00:57:49.104 --> 00:57:53.904
Speaker 1: performance makes sense narratively.
Now, there's a lot of points in that space. You

807
00:57:53.924 --> 00:57:56.624
Speaker 1: can lean on this part of the
character, you can lean on that part of the
character.

808
00:57:56.664 --> 00:58:00.224
Speaker 1: You can come up with your own thing.
That's fine, too. There's spaces I did not

809
00:58:00.284 --> 00:58:05.944
Speaker 1: imagine for this character to behave.
But it needs to fit within the narrative space

810
00:58:05.984 --> 00:58:09.544
Speaker 1: of this character. There are ways to
perform this character that are completely

811
00:58:09.604 --> 00:58:15.144
Speaker 1: contrary to what is necessate-
necessary for the plot and for the story and for

812
00:58:15.164 --> 00:58:19.984
Speaker 1: their interactions with other
characters. So you have to be in that space. It
is my

813
00:58:20.044 --> 00:58:24.564
Speaker 1: job to get you into that space,
right? And to get the best out of you, right?
Uh,

814
00:58:24.704 --> 00:58:29.864
Speaker 1: there are better points in that space
as well. My job is to make it so that you fit

815
00:58:29.924 --> 00:58:34.784
Speaker 1: the character, your voice fits the
character. Beyond that, the rest is your art.
I'm

816
00:58:34.804 --> 00:58:38.904
Speaker 1: not gonna micromanage you. I'm not
gonna tell you how to do anything. Beyond, it

817
00:58:38.964 --> 00:58:42.964
Speaker 1: needs to fit the story. And if it
fits the story in a totally unexpected way, and
by

818
00:58:43.004 --> 00:58:48.464
Speaker 1: the way, it, multiple, even the main
character, is totally unlike what I expected.

819
00:58:48.524 --> 00:58:53.944
Speaker 1: Totally unlike how I wrote him. But
it's awesome. And that's what matters. It's

820
00:58:54.044 --> 00:59:00.004
Speaker 1: awesome. I didn't say, "You need to
sound like this. You need to do this." In fact,

821
00:59:00.104 --> 00:59:04.144
Speaker 1: all I did is I always say, "Hit me
with your intuition first. I don't wanna tell
you

822
00:59:04.164 --> 00:59:07.844
Speaker 1: what it is. Let me tell you who they
are, who they... where this character comes

823
00:59:07.864 --> 00:59:11.224
Speaker 1: from, their purpose in the story,
because you need to know what my end goal for
the

824
00:59:11.264 --> 00:59:16.383
Speaker 1: character is. As long as you get
there, the rest is your art. I do not care." So

825
00:59:16.424 --> 00:59:21.544
Speaker 1: that's my directing style now. I was
absolutely terrified [laughs] and I probably

826
00:59:21.584 --> 00:59:26.044
Speaker 1: made a lot of stupid decisions early
on, where I was unwilling to push them into

827
00:59:26.084 --> 00:59:31.644
Speaker 1: that space because I was, uh, not
confident yet in my ability to do that, right?

828
00:59:31.744 --> 00:59:35.024
Speaker 1: Because they know so much more about
me, about this than me. They're actors, right?

829
00:59:35.624 --> 00:59:39.144
Speaker 1: Uh, some of them are new, some of
them are not new. They know what they're doing.

830
00:59:39.624 --> 00:59:43.504
Speaker 1: And I w- this is, debut director. I
do not know what I was doing. But when I showed

831
00:59:43.584 --> 00:59:48.784
Speaker 1: up, and I got this advice from you,
Tony. When I showed up, I opened with, "I have

832
00:59:48.884 --> 00:59:54.384
Speaker 1: no idea what I am doing. Please give
me feedback. That said, here's what I need you

833
00:59:54.424 --> 00:59:59.704
Speaker 1: to do." [laughs] Right? I, I just
flat out... I opened with, "I'm not pretending
to

834
00:59:59.724 --> 01:00:04.484
Speaker 1: be an expert here, so if I'm doing
something dumb, tell me. Otherwise, this is what

835
01:00:04.584 --> 01:00:09.804
Speaker 1: I need." Uh, and I think that made
all the difference, and they were totally
willing

836
01:00:10.384 --> 01:00:16.044
Speaker 1: to correct me or to insist, um, and
it made a big difference. We were teammates

837
01:00:16.104 --> 01:00:17.344
Speaker 1: instead of a top-down thing.

838
01:00:17.764 --> 01:00:18.044
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

839
01:00:18.184 --> 01:00:20.584
Speaker 1: So now it's old hat, and now I can do
it no problem.

840
01:00:21.884 --> 01:00:24.184
Speaker 3: Awesome. How did the mechanics of it
work, though?

841
01:00:24.904 --> 01:00:25.684
Speaker 1: So for the recording?

842
01:00:26.364 --> 01:00:27.804
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, um-

843
01:00:28.364 --> 01:00:28.404
Speaker 1: Yeah

844
01:00:28.404 --> 01:00:31.844
Speaker 3: ... did you get all the actors all in
the same room, or did, you know?

845
01:00:32.224 --> 01:00:37.784
Speaker 1: So I'm very open about this. Uh, the
cost of producing Mortal Steel was $1,400,

846
01:00:38.364 --> 01:00:41.724
Speaker 1: uh, approximately, right? Plus or
minus some plugins and other software I'm

847
01:00:41.764 --> 01:00:42.104
Speaker 1: forgetting.

848
01:00:42.184 --> 01:00:42.784
Speaker 3: Not bad.

849
01:00:43.124 --> 01:00:43.184
Speaker 1: Uh-

850
01:00:43.244 --> 01:00:44.404
Speaker 3: How, how many episodes?

851
01:00:45.124 --> 01:00:45.484
Speaker 1: 12.

852
01:00:45.984 --> 01:00:46.184
Speaker 3: Okay.

853
01:00:46.384 --> 01:00:47.284
Speaker 1: 25-minute episodes-

854
01:00:47.344 --> 01:00:47.384
Speaker 3: Not bad

855
01:00:47.424 --> 01:00:50.944
Speaker 1: ... with, you know, full design,
sound design, music. Now, obviously I'm doing
all

856
01:00:50.984 --> 01:00:56.924
Speaker 1: the post-production myself beyond the
art and the, the music. But- Still,

857
01:00:57.424 --> 01:01:01.124
Speaker 1: 1,400 bucks ain't too shabby, and I
know the next one, I know it could be cheaper

858
01:01:01.164 --> 01:01:02.424
Speaker 1: too. I know how to make it cheaper.

859
01:01:02.824 --> 01:01:02.924
Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.

860
01:01:02.964 --> 01:01:03.624
Speaker 1: I'm not going to.

861
01:01:04.304 --> 01:01:06.324
Speaker 6: But how did the actual mechanics of
the-

862
01:01:06.564 --> 01:01:06.964
Speaker 1: So the recording-

863
01:01:06.964 --> 01:01:08.504
Speaker 6: ... uh, working with the actors go?

864
01:01:08.684 --> 01:01:13.844
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is related. So we are
recording asynchronously. What happens is I
deliver

865
01:01:13.884 --> 01:01:18.304
Speaker 1: the script, right? So I format the
script. I give them the exact lines. They have a

866
01:01:18.424 --> 01:01:21.704
Speaker 1: spreadsheet of all their lines, first
of all, that's totally separate, just so they

867
01:01:21.744 --> 01:01:26.744
Speaker 1: don't miss them. All the lines are
individually labeled with numbers, IDs, in the

868
01:01:26.784 --> 01:01:30.224
Speaker 1: order of appearance. Their character
names are associated with them. So their job,

869
01:01:30.924 --> 01:01:35.304
Speaker 1: say you have 12 lines in episode one,
right? So we record it in four episode blocks

870
01:01:35.344 --> 01:01:40.344
Speaker 1: at a time. All right, due date is
next Wednesday. I want your four episodes worth
of

871
01:01:40.404 --> 01:01:45.124
Speaker 1: lines back in this Google Drive. So
here's your folder. Here's, here's all the

872
01:01:45.144 --> 01:01:48.224
Speaker 1: information about how you need to
record and what the sound format is and all
this.

873
01:01:49.144 --> 01:01:53.284
Speaker 1: Here are the numbers of your lines
and the line associated with it in
parentheticals

874
01:01:53.384 --> 01:01:58.644
Speaker 1: if it matters, right? You go off and
do it, right? And you have the instruction that

875
01:01:58.744 --> 01:02:03.364
Speaker 1: if you are in dialogue with another
character, you listen to the dialogue line

876
01:02:03.424 --> 01:02:08.324
Speaker 1: before yours if your, if their line
is already in. If their line is not in, you get

877
01:02:08.344 --> 01:02:12.104
Speaker 1: to set the pace for the dia- for the
conversation, right? You record all your lines

878
01:02:12.184 --> 01:02:16.264
Speaker 1: as if there were a phantom there
talking to you, and then they listen to yours to

879
01:02:16.324 --> 01:02:21.404
Speaker 1: make it flow. And it is shocking how
good it is. Now, there are times when it comes

880
01:02:21.444 --> 01:02:21.804
Speaker 1: off kind of flat.

881
01:02:21.864 --> 01:02:24.764
Speaker 6: Oh, so you gave the recording... So
if two people are in conversation-

882
01:02:24.964 --> 01:02:25.184
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

883
01:02:25.184 --> 01:02:30.864
Speaker 6: ... person number one records their
lines with gaps for c- for the other person's

884
01:02:30.904 --> 01:02:35.804
Speaker 6: dialogue, and then you give that
whole recording to the second actor?

885
01:02:35.964 --> 01:02:36.204
Speaker 1: No, no, no.

886
01:02:36.204 --> 01:02:37.604
Speaker 6: And the second actor responds to it?

887
01:02:37.604 --> 01:02:41.204
Speaker 1: Even better than that. That's not
streamlined enough. So what happens is they are

888
01:02:41.244 --> 01:02:47.044
Speaker 1: responsible for chopping up their own
clips. So one underscore 137 is this line.

889
01:02:47.604 --> 01:02:53.544
Speaker 1: I want that clip, one underscore
137.wav, in my folder by this due date. And

890
01:02:53.664 --> 01:02:57.644
Speaker 1: I have all of these individual Lego
pieces that I can move around to change the

891
01:02:57.684 --> 01:03:02.944
Speaker 1: timing of the dialogue. It's not one
track. I asked, I ha- made an e- extra ask. You

892
01:03:03.004 --> 01:03:08.264
Speaker 1: chop it up for me and organize it so
that I can just assemble the pieces later. Uh,

893
01:03:08.384 --> 01:03:12.104
Speaker 1: it's even better than that. Um, so
yeah, they listen to the other dialogue clips

894
01:03:12.164 --> 01:03:15.804
Speaker 1: before them so that if you pressed
play, going all the way down, you would hear the

895
01:03:15.864 --> 01:03:21.144
Speaker 1: episode, minus narration. So the
whole show was recorded with 11 people talking
to

896
01:03:21.164 --> 01:03:25.024
Speaker 1: themselves in a closet, you know, or
wherever their recording space is. No person

897
01:03:25.084 --> 01:03:26.164
Speaker 1: talks to themselves live.

898
01:03:26.264 --> 01:03:28.124
Speaker 6: Wow, so they were never in the same
room.

899
01:03:28.404 --> 01:03:34.004
Speaker 1: Nope. Not once did we ever talk
together. And I mean, I challenge you to listen
to

900
01:03:34.044 --> 01:03:38.324
Speaker 1: it and see if you can tell. There are
some times when it falls a little flat. It's,

901
01:03:38.584 --> 01:03:40.924
Speaker 1: you know, comes with the territory.
But that kept costs down.

902
01:03:41.264 --> 01:03:42.624
Speaker 6: No, I thought it was great, you know?

903
01:03:42.684 --> 01:03:46.484
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it works. Uh, and it's very
important because it kept, from a business

904
01:03:46.544 --> 01:03:49.824
Speaker 1: perspective, 'cause it keeps costs
down. All of these people have day jobs, you

905
01:03:49.864 --> 01:03:53.964
Speaker 1: know. They work in bars. They work
retail. They work customer support. And some of

906
01:03:54.004 --> 01:03:59.584
Speaker 1: them work overtime, right? They're
busy, right? This is their passion. So

907
01:04:00.244 --> 01:04:03.844
Speaker 1: when they're coming home at 11:00 and
they have to get their voice lines in, the

908
01:04:03.924 --> 01:04:09.324
Speaker 1: last thing you want to tell them is,
"Hey, you have to be here at this time for two

909
01:04:09.424 --> 01:04:14.204
Speaker 1: hours to record the two lines that
you have in this episode." It's an ask too much.

910
01:04:14.664 --> 01:04:18.404
Speaker 1: Right? I could do it, but then I
would also need to pay them thousands of
dollars,

911
01:04:18.764 --> 01:04:21.904
Speaker 1: because it's no longer a passion
thing. It's like a, you know, they're ma-
they're

912
01:04:21.944 --> 01:04:26.544
Speaker 1: here for a job. Um, which is fine,
and I want to get to that point where I can do

913
01:04:26.624 --> 01:04:31.324
Speaker 1: that. But when you're starting small
and cheap, you have to get creative about

914
01:04:31.404 --> 01:04:35.184
Speaker 1: solving the problems to get the cost
down. So for reference, and I think I told you

915
01:04:35.224 --> 01:04:39.464
Speaker 1: this, Tony, I read an article
recently that described how to make an audio
fiction

916
01:04:39.504 --> 01:04:45.384
Speaker 1: podcast. And part of it, the last
third, is talking about budget. And so they

917
01:04:45.444 --> 01:04:48.684
Speaker 1: go through this whole step-by-step
about how they produced their own show and what

918
01:04:48.704 --> 01:04:54.104
Speaker 1: they did. Their budget, actual co-
dollars spent, was $75,000.

919
01:04:54.804 --> 01:04:59.384
Speaker 1: And they told you it could not be
done for less than 50. And it c- should have
taken

920
01:04:59.444 --> 01:05:04.924
Speaker 1: them $125,000, but they were so proud
of themselves for saving money. And it

921
01:05:04.984 --> 01:05:09.224
Speaker 1: blew my mind. Now, I've listened to
their show, and not to throw shade on other

922
01:05:09.284 --> 01:05:13.784
Speaker 1: artists, it's not about that. This is
about the business of what they're doing. For

923
01:05:13.824 --> 01:05:19.624
Speaker 1: the output they got, just objectively
speaking, it was worse than where I am now.

924
01:05:20.584 --> 01:05:25.264
Speaker 1: And that's, it's sad. It's, it's not
a good thing. This is not like, "Oh yeah, I'm

925
01:05:25.304 --> 01:05:29.724
Speaker 1: flexing on you. I figured something
out." This is sad because it deters other people

926
01:05:29.764 --> 01:05:35.404
Speaker 1: from thinking they can make
incredible things on a budget. And you can solve
so much

927
01:05:35.504 --> 01:05:40.644
Speaker 1: if you are willing to get creative
and approach a problem with a solution mindset

928
01:05:40.724 --> 01:05:45.524
Speaker 1: instead of giving up and paying
people to solve it for you. You do not need an

929
01:05:45.604 --> 01:05:51.104
Speaker 1: expert for everything. You can be
that expert in short order. It's been, what,
eight

930
01:05:51.164 --> 01:05:55.884
Speaker 1: months? And I mean, it's at least
convincing, right? I don't sound like a master
in

931
01:05:55.944 --> 01:06:00.864
Speaker 1: any of the things I'm doing, but I
sound good enough to sell, or nearly so.

932
01:06:02.064 --> 01:06:03.084
Speaker 1: And isn't that the bar?

933
01:06:03.184 --> 01:06:03.224
Speaker 6: And you're learning.

934
01:06:03.224 --> 01:06:04.664
Speaker 1: If that's not the bar, I don't know
what is.

935
01:06:05.424 --> 01:06:09.444
Speaker 6: And you're learning. You're striving
to get better, but you understand getting

936
01:06:09.484 --> 01:06:10.484
Speaker 6: better is a process.

937
01:06:10.724 --> 01:06:15.084
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't start ready, and you
don't need to start with $100,000 to make

938
01:06:15.124 --> 01:06:20.544
Speaker 1: something incredible. Just start
doing it, and you will learn very quickly
whether

939
01:06:20.604 --> 01:06:26.544
Speaker 1: you need a real expert or not. And
for almost everything, you do not. And

940
01:06:26.584 --> 01:06:30.084
Speaker 1: when you do, at least you will walk
into it knowing, like, okay, yeah, the experts

941
01:06:30.124 --> 01:06:34.684
Speaker 1: really are worth the money on this
one. Like, uh, yep, for sure. Like the guitar

942
01:06:34.784 --> 01:06:38.624
Speaker 1: player I got for the intro and outro,
I'm not gonna learn how to play guitar. I'm

943
01:06:38.644 --> 01:06:42.464
Speaker 1: not gonna learn how to shred. Like
[laughs] it's not worth it. I paid him $200 on

944
01:06:42.564 --> 01:06:48.264
Speaker 1: Fiverr, and he was happy to do it for
me in two days, right? They spent $3,500 on

945
01:06:48.284 --> 01:06:51.244
Speaker 1: their composing and producing, 'cause
they hired a professional composer and

946
01:06:51.284 --> 01:06:55.304
Speaker 1: producer who was set up to charge
that much. They did totally custom work. They

947
01:06:55.324 --> 01:06:58.784
Speaker 1: didn't give them the freedom. They
went top-down on everything. "This is exactly

948
01:06:58.804 --> 01:07:02.904
Speaker 1: what I need." They went through a ton
of takes. I trusted an expert to give me

949
01:07:02.944 --> 01:07:07.796
Speaker 1: something good on their timeline. So
by being way less needy about what I got in the

950
01:07:07.876 --> 01:07:12.116
Speaker 1: end, "Give me something good. I don't
care what it is. This is roughly what I want.

951
01:07:13.056 --> 01:07:16.796
Speaker 1: Give it to me. Let's see what you can
do." And for 200 bucks, this guy was able to

952
01:07:16.836 --> 01:07:19.836
Speaker 1: do it, no problem, in his free time.
Probably took, took him a couple hours. He was

953
01:07:19.876 --> 01:07:23.136
Speaker 1: happy. I was happy. Nobody got hurt
in the exchange.

954
01:07:23.796 --> 01:07:24.776
Speaker 6: Hmm. I like that.

955
01:07:24.956 --> 01:07:24.957
Speaker 1: Yes.

956
01:07:24.976 --> 01:07:30.316
Speaker 6: Because he's the one composing the
music, you wanted him to be moved by the story.
I

957
01:07:30.356 --> 01:07:34.116
Speaker 6: will tell you that I charge a lot
more than that to do a show.

958
01:07:34.116 --> 01:07:34.136
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

959
01:07:34.136 --> 01:07:34.796
Speaker 6: You know?

960
01:07:34.816 --> 01:07:36.536
Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm not disparaging-

961
01:07:36.556 --> 01:07:37.556
Speaker 6: There's nothing wrong with that

962
01:07:37.596 --> 01:07:38.536
Speaker 1: ... paying professionals.

963
01:07:38.776 --> 01:07:41.896
Speaker 6: But, yeah, you're talking about the
level that you're at right now and your goals.

964
01:07:42.176 --> 01:07:42.436
Speaker 1: Yeah.

965
01:07:42.556 --> 01:07:48.356
Speaker 6: Um, I used to, when my daughter was
growing up, I used to tell her, "Don't worry so

966
01:07:48.396 --> 01:07:52.796
Speaker 6: much about school." That's not to say
school isn't important, but it's to say you

967
01:07:52.856 --> 01:07:55.836
Speaker 6: don't go to school because you
already know the stuff.

968
01:07:55.856 --> 01:07:56.036
Speaker 1: Yeah.

969
01:07:56.216 --> 01:08:01.916
Speaker 6: You're there to learn what you don't
know, and that's kind of beautiful to me. Your

970
01:08:01.976 --> 01:08:05.876
Speaker 6: goal was to produce these things
because you're going to school.

971
01:08:06.096 --> 01:08:06.176
Speaker 1: Yeah.

972
01:08:06.236 --> 01:08:09.776
Speaker 6: You are teaching yourself how to be a
great producer.

973
01:08:10.056 --> 01:08:10.316
Speaker 1: Exactly.

974
01:08:10.336 --> 01:08:15.776
Speaker 6: You know, and one of the reasons, uh,
one great reason why I really wanted to talk

975
01:08:15.836 --> 01:08:21.496
Speaker 6: to you about your process and all of
this is because if you think of the arch

976
01:08:22.296 --> 01:08:27.636
Speaker 6: of... No, not, not an arc because an
arc implies an up and a down. Let's say a

977
01:08:27.736 --> 01:08:33.676
Speaker 6: curve. There's a tipping point in
that curve. After the tipping point, there are

978
01:08:33.736 --> 01:08:39.636
Speaker 6: people after the tipping point, Josh
Whedon, um, Aaron

979
01:08:39.776 --> 01:08:43.876
Speaker 6: Sorkin, you know, uh, big Broadway
theaters.

980
01:08:44.116 --> 01:08:44.316
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

981
01:08:44.456 --> 01:08:50.076
Speaker 6: You are just before the curve. You
are going around that curve-

982
01:08:50.216 --> 01:08:50.536
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

983
01:08:50.536 --> 01:08:56.336
Speaker 6: ... and I caught you just before the
curve, and the story where you're at right now

984
01:08:56.416 --> 01:09:02.296
Speaker 6: is extremely intriguing because there
are other people who are in the same

985
01:09:02.336 --> 01:09:07.076
Speaker 6: place as you, just before the tipping
point, just before the curve-

986
01:09:07.396 --> 01:09:07.456
Speaker 1: Yeah

987
01:09:07.456 --> 01:09:08.156
Speaker 6: ... and they give up.

988
01:09:08.436 --> 01:09:11.476
Speaker 1: "Can I do this? Can I do this? Can I
do this?" And then the wheels fall off.

989
01:09:11.476 --> 01:09:12.856
Speaker 1: [laughs]

990
01:09:12.916 --> 01:09:16.856
Speaker 6: Yeah, and instead of... But it, but
here's the thing. Here's the difference, and

991
01:09:16.896 --> 01:09:21.556
Speaker 6: here's what I love about you. If the
wheels fall off, like you said about the

992
01:09:21.616 --> 01:09:22.916
Speaker 6: literary agents-

993
01:09:23.276 --> 01:09:23.696
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

994
01:09:23.716 --> 01:09:28.476
Speaker 6: ... the, the people you spoke to, the
difference is when the wheels fall off, you

995
01:09:29.016 --> 01:09:33.836
Speaker 6: say, "Okay, why did they fall off?
Let me learn from that and put it back... Let me

996
01:09:33.876 --> 01:09:36.076
Speaker 6: figure out how to put the wheels back
on." And maybe the wheels-

997
01:09:36.116 --> 01:09:36.136
Speaker 1: Yeah

998
01:09:36.136 --> 01:09:37.756
Speaker 6: ... don't come on exactly the same
way.

999
01:09:37.776 --> 01:09:37.777
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes

1000
01:09:37.776 --> 01:09:40.296
Speaker 6: ... maybe you have to take a
different path, right?

1001
01:09:40.336 --> 01:09:41.036
Speaker 1: You're exactly right.

1002
01:09:41.056 --> 01:09:42.316
Speaker 6: And that's the difference.

1003
01:09:42.956 --> 01:09:47.916
Speaker 1: It can all be distilled down to this
one reaction. When you get punched in the face,

1004
01:09:48.896 --> 01:09:53.756
Speaker 1: do you fall down and think to
yourself, "I'm never gonna do that again. That
hurt,"

1005
01:09:54.296 --> 01:09:58.616
Speaker 1: or do you think, "I need to get
better at avoiding getting punched in the face"?

1006
01:09:58.656 --> 01:09:59.836
Speaker 6: [laughs]

1007
01:09:59.896 --> 01:10:03.396
Speaker 1: Like, that is it. Everything... Now,
there's a lot of ways to change a reaction. We

1008
01:10:03.436 --> 01:10:06.996
Speaker 1: talked about all that, surrounding
yourself with people who can get you back up and

1009
01:10:07.056 --> 01:10:11.196
Speaker 1: get you better at dodging punches,
right? But the, all of it is in a solution

1010
01:10:11.256 --> 01:10:16.696
Speaker 1: mindset. When I get hurt, do I think,
"I'm gonna do less of that. That hurt," or do

1011
01:10:16.736 --> 01:10:22.056
Speaker 1: you think, "I can do this. I just
need to figure out how to not get hurt again.

1012
01:10:22.436 --> 01:10:26.236
Speaker 1: Let's get better." Like, how do I get
around this obstacle? And you have... And this

1013
01:10:26.296 --> 01:10:30.016
Speaker 1: isn't something that just happens to
you, flip a switch one time and you're done. A

1014
01:10:30.076 --> 01:10:34.396
Speaker 1: solution mindset is something you
will continually, continually, continually have
to

1015
01:10:34.436 --> 01:10:40.396
Speaker 1: pound into yourself. When you get
hit, you have to be thinking, "How do I get
around

1016
01:10:40.456 --> 01:10:44.756
Speaker 1: this next time?" And it is very hard
because your initial reaction, especially if

1017
01:10:44.776 --> 01:10:48.456
Speaker 1: this is new to you, is to think, "I
never wanna do this again. I just got told no on

1018
01:10:48.496 --> 01:10:53.256
Speaker 1: that pitch. Well, screw that. I'm
done with this." You may not say it in as many

1019
01:10:53.316 --> 01:10:57.276
Speaker 1: words. You may just think, "I don't
wanna do this anymore. That felt bad. Let's do

1020
01:10:57.296 --> 01:10:58.136
Speaker 1: something else instead."

1021
01:10:58.756 --> 01:10:58.916
Speaker 6: Cool.

1022
01:10:58.916 --> 01:11:03.416
Speaker 1: But instead, you think, "Well, that
hurt. There's probably something to learn here."

1023
01:11:03.456 --> 01:11:07.116
Speaker 1: And even if you're not ready to hear
that right away, the next day when you wake up,

1024
01:11:07.156 --> 01:11:12.296
Speaker 1: you think, "Okay, what did I learn?
How can I move forward?" It doesn't feel good.

1025
01:11:12.596 --> 01:11:18.056
Speaker 1: It never feels good to get punched,
but [laughs] if you can continually improve,

1026
01:11:19.096 --> 01:11:22.376
Speaker 1: it'll happen less and less and to the
point where you don't even feel it anymore.

1027
01:11:22.436 --> 01:11:27.036
Speaker 1: You know what's crazy, Tony? What's
really crazy is one day you start waking up

1028
01:11:27.075 --> 01:11:30.376
Speaker 1: hoping you get punched because it
means you're learning something.

1029
01:11:31.096 --> 01:11:31.116
Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.

1030
01:11:31.156 --> 01:11:35.156
Speaker 1: It means every time you do, you start
craving it. You s- That's when you know,

1031
01:11:35.436 --> 01:11:39.796
Speaker 1: "Yeah, I'm gonna make it." And I
haven't made it over the bend yet. I'm close,
but I

1032
01:11:39.876 --> 01:11:45.276
Speaker 1: feel like when you start craving the
knowledge, when you start wondering how you're

1033
01:11:45.296 --> 01:11:49.716
Speaker 1: wrong and actively seeking out, "I
bet I'm wrong about this. I bet I'm wrong about

1034
01:11:49.756 --> 01:11:53.136
Speaker 1: this. How can I find out if I'm wrong
about this?" Now, you might not be, and you

1035
01:11:53.176 --> 01:11:56.236
Speaker 1: might be right, and for once you're
like, "Yay, I did it right. On to the next

1036
01:11:56.276 --> 01:12:01.176
Speaker 1: thing." But if you're wrong, like I
was yesterday, I sought that out because I

1037
01:12:01.296 --> 01:12:07.216
Speaker 1: craved it. I wanted to know how I was
going to fail, and I knew that when you

1038
01:12:07.316 --> 01:12:13.276
Speaker 1: start wanting to know how you're bad,
you're w- not only willing to hear criticism,

1039
01:12:13.376 --> 01:12:18.116
Speaker 1: but you, you desire it because you
want to succeed so much more than you want to
not

1040
01:12:18.156 --> 01:12:22.456
Speaker 1: get punched in the face. When that,
that scale tips, I feel like that's when you

1041
01:12:22.496 --> 01:12:26.196
Speaker 1: make it. Uh, we'll see, right?
[laughs]

1042
01:12:26.216 --> 01:12:26.736
Speaker 6: Hmm. Yeah. We'll see.

1043
01:12:26.776 --> 01:12:30.276
Speaker 1: I'm not speaking from the top of a
mountain. I'm speaking hopefully from the way
up.

1044
01:12:30.916 --> 01:12:35.616
Speaker 6: Now, getting back to the way you, the
mechanics of the way you recorded it.

1045
01:12:36.036 --> 01:12:36.076
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

1046
01:12:36.136 --> 01:12:41.936
Speaker 6: As a sound designer, I know that if
you have all those little snippets, those clips

1047
01:12:42.536 --> 01:12:47.876
Speaker 6: of actors' lines, putting all that
together is a nightmare.

1048
01:12:48.196 --> 01:12:48.316
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

1049
01:12:48.416 --> 01:12:50.436
Speaker 6: Uh, even if it's only 20 minutes.

1050
01:12:50.676 --> 01:12:50.776
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1051
01:12:50.876 --> 01:12:55.016
Speaker 6: Are you gonna do it that way again,
or, or what did you learn from that experience?

1052
01:12:55.736 --> 01:13:01.716
Speaker 1: I knew that I had to do it. I knew
that it was important to take

1053
01:13:03.116 --> 01:13:08.964
Speaker 1: a wrong step, even if it was
inefficient. And a bad decision. I knew I

1054
01:13:09.024 --> 01:13:13.284
Speaker 1: needed to take action. I knew I
needed voice actors. I knew I needed their
clips.

1055
01:13:13.904 --> 01:13:17.084
Speaker 1: And this was the only way I could
think of, of getting it on a reasonable
timeframe

1056
01:13:17.124 --> 01:13:21.584
Speaker 1: in a way that let me accomplish all
my other goals. So ultimately, I had to do it

1057
01:13:22.304 --> 01:13:26.104
Speaker 1: because I knew that it was o- I was
gonna learn from it. I was gonna figure out

1058
01:13:26.144 --> 01:13:31.084
Speaker 1: whether this worked. Either it
doesn't work, and I have to go do the hard way
of

1059
01:13:31.284 --> 01:13:35.264
Speaker 1: scheduling everybody, getting them in
the same room, whether virtual or not. All

1060
01:13:35.304 --> 01:13:40.124
Speaker 1: right? It gets a lot harder. I knew
that I was more likely to fail

1061
01:13:41.364 --> 01:13:46.464
Speaker 1: by mulling on whether this was the
right choice or not. I was more likely to fail

1062
01:13:46.504 --> 01:13:50.784
Speaker 1: because I did not take action, and I
overthought it, and I gave up, and I did

1063
01:13:50.824 --> 01:13:56.564
Speaker 1: something else, than I was to fail if
I did it wrong and it was hard work, uh,

1064
01:13:56.844 --> 01:14:00.424
Speaker 1: in order to make it work again. So
the short answer is it took about six hours the

1065
01:14:00.464 --> 01:14:05.224
Speaker 1: first time. I measure every single
step of my production, um, just to get more

1066
01:14:05.264 --> 01:14:08.324
Speaker 1: efficient. So the first time it took
about six hours. The second time it took about

1067
01:14:08.364 --> 01:14:13.244
Speaker 1: two hours. It's not that hard. I have
it down less than that now because I got good

1068
01:14:13.284 --> 01:14:16.584
Speaker 1: at it. Because like anything else,
it's a skill, and like anything else, you can

1069
01:14:16.644 --> 01:14:21.164
Speaker 1: figure out how to do this. So now I
have a way of recording my narration that makes

1070
01:14:21.184 --> 01:14:25.804
Speaker 1: it very simple. I literally just
clap, and I say the numbers of the clips,
because

1071
01:14:25.824 --> 01:14:29.424
Speaker 1: they're all numbered, right? Remember
that? They're all numbered. I say, [claps]

1072
01:14:29.444 --> 01:14:33.524
Speaker 1: "48, 47, [laughs] 47, 48, 49." I
sound insane, right? I'm just, I'm in character.

1073
01:14:33.524 --> 01:14:36.484
Speaker 6: No, that's called, that's slating.
That's called slating.

1074
01:14:36.504 --> 01:14:36.505
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1075
01:14:36.544 --> 01:14:39.324
Speaker 6: You know the old movie, um, clappers?

1076
01:14:39.624 --> 01:14:39.864
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

1077
01:14:40.244 --> 01:14:42.824
Speaker 6: They're a slate, and they would put
the chalk and the scene number and stuff.

1078
01:14:42.844 --> 01:14:47.384
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Again, another idea that came
from you. Uh, you, Tony's advice is great,

1079
01:14:47.444 --> 01:14:52.804
Speaker 1: everybody. Uh, so and then by
threading it that way, um, he can't say it, but
I can.

1080
01:14:53.324 --> 01:14:58.224
Speaker 1: Uh, so it made a huge difference, and
I can do it. And yeah, there are some

1081
01:14:58.264 --> 01:15:02.464
Speaker 1: drawbacks, but there's a lot of
upside for an independent producer. So don't be

1082
01:15:02.544 --> 01:15:08.324
Speaker 1: afraid to break the mold if it's
forward progress, if you're gonna learn
something.

1083
01:15:08.504 --> 01:15:12.704
Speaker 1: Worst case scenario, it failed
miserably. I'd have to go back and do more
takes. We

1084
01:15:12.784 --> 01:15:15.683
Speaker 1: schedule some point in the future
where we can start recording episodes. It was

1085
01:15:15.724 --> 01:15:20.464
Speaker 1: recoverable. So I knew that I would
learn something, and if it worked, it would make

1086
01:15:20.924 --> 01:15:24.584
Speaker 1: everything easier. I could have
recording done in three weeks, and I don't have
to

1087
01:15:24.624 --> 01:15:29.244
Speaker 1: do anything. I literally just
directed them each for one session. I just ran
through

1088
01:15:29.304 --> 01:15:33.204
Speaker 1: 10 lines or so for each character. We
narrowed down their voice, and the rest was

1089
01:15:33.244 --> 01:15:36.984
Speaker 1: like, "Okay, have fun. See you
later." And their clips just started showing up
in

1090
01:15:37.024 --> 01:15:40.544
Speaker 1: the do- in the drive. Now, of course,
I had to push people for deadlines and all

1091
01:15:40.604 --> 01:15:44.744
Speaker 1: that, like, but for the most part,
these guys were professional guys and gals. They

1092
01:15:44.764 --> 01:15:48.944
Speaker 1: were all professionals. Like, it was
shocking what a group of volunteers put

1093
01:15:49.004 --> 01:15:54.044
Speaker 1: together by themselves with nothing
but a set of rules that I cooked up on the fly

1094
01:15:54.664 --> 01:15:59.404
Speaker 1: and motivation for a project, for a
dream. It's shocking what you can accomplish.

1095
01:16:00.904 --> 01:16:04.784
Speaker 6: Thanks, Steven. Thank you very much
for talking and sharing some of your

1096
01:16:04.864 --> 01:16:10.444
Speaker 6: experiences. If you were to give any
advice, let's say there's somebody

1097
01:16:10.544 --> 01:16:14.784
Speaker 6: listening who is just before the
tipping point, just before the curve, and their

1098
01:16:14.844 --> 01:16:16.864
Speaker 6: wheels fell off, what would you tell
them?

1099
01:16:17.704 --> 01:16:23.164
Speaker 1: You have to know why you're doing
what you're doing. Are you running away from

1100
01:16:23.204 --> 01:16:27.524
Speaker 1: something? Are you building
something? And I had this realization talking to
another

1101
01:16:27.544 --> 01:16:31.064
Speaker 1: person. Again, giving advice is a
great way to learn about yourself.

1102
01:16:32.864 --> 01:16:37.944
Speaker 1: I realized that there is no right
path in life, which is why I go back to my

1103
01:16:37.984 --> 01:16:41.564
Speaker 1: metaphor, the being on the path or
off the path. It's not why it's more
complicated.

1104
01:16:41.604 --> 01:16:47.184
Speaker 1: Is it the right path? There is no
right path. There are aspects of your
personality

1105
01:16:47.764 --> 01:16:51.924
Speaker 1: that you can emphasize. There are
dreams, and all of them are valid. Some of them

1106
01:16:51.964 --> 01:16:55.844
Speaker 1: have trade-offs. Some of them have
pros and cons. They all affect your life in some

1107
01:16:55.904 --> 01:17:01.324
Speaker 1: way. But once you've chosen one,
understood that none of the other paths are
better

1108
01:17:01.364 --> 01:17:06.204
Speaker 1: than this one, this thing you chose
to make, which you believed so dearly, and up

1109
01:17:06.244 --> 01:17:08.844
Speaker 1: until this point, you're sitting
there, you're looking at your car, all the
wheels

1110
01:17:08.864 --> 01:17:12.324
Speaker 1: are off, to go back to that metaphor.
You're thinking, "Do I want to put this back

1111
01:17:12.384 --> 01:17:17.224
Speaker 1: together? Do I want to get back
together and try again, even though it hurts?"

1112
01:17:18.884 --> 01:17:22.804
Speaker 1: This path is not better than any
other. Those other paths are not better than
this

1113
01:17:22.884 --> 01:17:27.904
Speaker 1: one. Now, you may find out that you
actually, truly do not enjoy this path. That's

1114
01:17:27.944 --> 01:17:32.784
Speaker 1: fine. Move on. Don't judge yourself
for it like I used to. Don't judge yourself for

1115
01:17:32.824 --> 01:17:37.524
Speaker 1: it anymore. But if the thing is that
you're just avoiding pain, know that all those

1116
01:17:37.584 --> 01:17:42.484
Speaker 1: paths have breakdowns on them too.
There is no way to avoid this pain.

1117
01:17:43.584 --> 01:17:47.644
Speaker 1: So if this path truly isn't the right
one, this project, this thing you're trying to

1118
01:17:47.684 --> 01:17:52.124
Speaker 1: build isn't the right one, that's
okay. Move on. Don't put it back together. That

1119
01:17:52.144 --> 01:17:52.764
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense.

1120
01:17:54.384 --> 01:17:59.964
Speaker 1: But all of those paths are hard. If
you're doing anything meaningful, every single

1121
01:18:00.044 --> 01:18:04.444
Speaker 1: one of them is hard, so you're not
gonna be able to avoid pain, and none of them
are

1122
01:18:04.504 --> 01:18:09.324
Speaker 1: better than this one. So you are
probably better served, I got this advice
recently,

1123
01:18:10.064 --> 01:18:16.024
Speaker 1: following a path and a bad goal to
its completion than

1124
01:18:16.084 --> 01:18:20.944
Speaker 1: you are [laughs] attempting to make a
new goal and giving up early. You will learn

1125
01:18:21.024 --> 01:18:25.464
Speaker 1: more following a bad path to its
completion than you will learn from switching
paths

1126
01:18:25.704 --> 01:18:30.704
Speaker 1: because one looks better than the
other. That's what I'll say. So set a goal,
reach

1127
01:18:30.764 --> 01:18:33.904
Speaker 1: it, and when you reach that goal, if
you've decided it didn't give you the feeling

1128
01:18:33.944 --> 01:18:35.464
Speaker 1: you want, then move on.

1129
01:18:36.224 --> 01:18:36.604
Speaker 6: Nice.

1130
01:18:38.144 --> 01:18:38.764
Speaker 6: Thanks, man.

1131
01:18:39.444 --> 01:18:45.444
Speaker 1: Thank you, Tony. And one final pitch,
uh, Tony is incredible. Uh, I have learned

1132
01:18:45.664 --> 01:18:51.204
Speaker 1: so, so much from him as a creative
coach. It really is one of the reasons that I am

1133
01:18:51.384 --> 01:18:56.564
Speaker 1: still on the path for this goal and
not on something else. Uh, and I'm not just,

1134
01:18:57.104 --> 01:19:01.984
Speaker 1: just trying to butter him up. It
really is a fundamental piece of success. It

1135
01:19:02.004 --> 01:19:06.124
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be Tony, but it
should be somebody. You should have somebody in
your

1136
01:19:06.184 --> 01:19:11.544
Speaker 1: life who cares about what you're
producing no matter how bad it is, somebody who

1137
01:19:11.564 --> 01:19:15.664
Speaker 1: will pat you on the back and say,
"When's the next one?" That's what you need.

1138
01:19:17.204 --> 01:19:19.964
Speaker 6: Aw, thanks. I'm not sure I'm gonna
include that, but