WEBVTT

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Speaker 1: [gentle music] Welcome to the circle.
This is

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Speaker 1: Ruptures and Roots, and I'm your
fellow traveler, Joshua Swenson. This is a space

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Speaker 1: for deep listening and the sharing of
stories of rupture and transformation in

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Speaker 1: unprecedented times, and a life that
roots into the cracks. Sitting in the circle

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Speaker 1: with me today is Steven Schrembeck. I
first met Steven through a class I joined last

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Speaker 1: fall called Techniques of
Transcendence. I was immediately struck by his
curiosity

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Speaker 1: and tenacity in exploring the edges
of consciousness. I've loved hearing Steven

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Speaker 1: reflect on his encounters with
anomalous phenomena and the ways he's learned to

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Speaker 1: listen to and work with psychic and
intuitive capacities. Steven is a lifelong

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Speaker 1: tinkerer with interests ranging from
sensory substitution to societal incentives. By

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Speaker 1: trade, he's a software engineer, and
by avocation, a writer and explorer of meaning.

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Speaker 1: He's the author of horror short
stories and fantasy novels, and he also writes

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Speaker 1: nonfiction on intuition,
consciousness, extrasensory abilities, and how
we make

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Speaker 1: sense of the unknown at
differentcompass.ink. In this conversation, we
sit together

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Speaker 1: in curiosity, exploring rupture,
perception, and what happens when our
understanding

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Speaker 1: of reality begins to stretch beyond
its familiar bounds. Welcome to the circle

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Speaker 1: today, Steven. I'm honored to be
holding space for your story. Is there anything

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Speaker 1: more you'd like to say or share by
way of introduction?

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Speaker 2: You said it way better than I would
say it myself, so I better not.

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Speaker 1: All right. Well, before we open the
space for your story, um, I always like to check

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Speaker 1: in, if you'd like to share, uh,
what's alive for you today, what's on your heart
and

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Speaker 1: mind, how you're arriving in the
space.

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Speaker 2: Uh, I arrived poring through some old
journals about what's happened to me over the

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Speaker 2: past few years, and I knew that it
was time to record with you 'cause I heard a

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Speaker 2: really high-pitched sound and felt
that sort of pressure in my head and went, "Oh,

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Speaker 2: cool. Guess it's time to go record."
Sure enough, I look up like, "All right. Who

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Speaker 2: needs an alarm?" Uh, so that's how
I'm arriving. [chuckles]

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Speaker 1: [chuckles]

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Speaker 2: How are you?

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Speaker 1: I've similarly been noticing
high-pitched noises. It's not quite the same,
like,

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Speaker 1: intensity as tinnitus, right? But
it's like it comes and goes at, like, unique

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Speaker 1: moments. I think we were-- I was,
like, reading a text you sent once about it
coming

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Speaker 1: up for you at one point, and as I was
reading the text, that ringing came in my own

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Speaker 1: ears. Um-

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Speaker 2: So sorry.

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Speaker 1: No, it's interesting. It's like a--
feels to me like a signal of synchronicity. So

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Speaker 1: thank you for sharing, and thank you
for arriving today.

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Speaker 2: Let's see how many listeners get it
at the-

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Speaker 1: Yeah

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Speaker 2: ... at that exact same time right
now. [chuckles]

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Speaker 1: I'm arriving today with, um, a
feeling of accomplishment. Um, I've been working
on a

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Speaker 1: trailer for the television series
I've been working on called The Lost Years,
which

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Speaker 1: is about the forgotten years of
Jesus' journey, uh, as he travels through

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Speaker 1: mys-mystery school initiations. And,
um, so I've been kind of deep diving on AI

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Speaker 1: filmmaking and, um, put together a
pretty badass trailer I'm really excited about

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Speaker 1: with some cool music and images. And,
um, yeah, feeling really accomplished and

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Speaker 1: also just really excited about this
conversation and, yeah, hearing more about your

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Speaker 1: story. So that's what I'm arriving
with today. I'd like to invite us both to take a

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Speaker 1: breath before we begin.

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Speaker 1: And whenever you're ready, what was
life like before the rupture or wherever it

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Speaker 1: feels right to begin?

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Speaker 2: I think I would like to preface this
with how hilarious and

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Speaker 2: ironic it is that I would be
describing, uh, my life before and after a
rupture,

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Speaker 2: as we'll get into any sort of
supernatural occurrence or [chuckles] mystical

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Speaker 2: experience. You, you'd have to know
me that, you know, like every child, I had

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Speaker 2: magical thinking, but at a pretty
young age, I don't know, nine, 10, start to
figure

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Speaker 2: out, "Oh, that's not cool." And from
that, more likely, you know, others will judge

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Speaker 2: me or, "Oh, this isn't real. I, I
gotta shut that down." And I think I did that
very

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Speaker 2: successfully. But I never stopped
liking stories and fantastical worlds. Uh,
that's

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Speaker 2: not unique among humans, but, you
know, I would-- In high school, I started
writing

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Speaker 2: creative fiction. Uh, I loved humor,
absurdist humor, fantasy, uh, and then

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Speaker 2: eventually I would get into horror.
That was an escape, and so was reading, and, uh,

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Speaker 2: I never stopped, like, loving
fictional magical worlds, but I think I needed a
world

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Speaker 2: that made sense to me. I became
logical. Uh, I liked

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Speaker 2: things that made sense. A lot of this
would end up being coping mechanisms for, uh,

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Speaker 2: ADHD, uh, various other acronyms that
are useful blueprints, and I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: find that out until much later in
life. But nonetheless, it affected my social
life,

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Speaker 2: and it helped me to see the world in
terms of systems and functions and things that

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Speaker 2: happen because of reasons, uh, in
ways that can be predicted and modeled. You
know,

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Speaker 2: 12-year-old Steven wasn't using those
words, but, you know, at the same time, you

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Speaker 2: know, we're clever. We find ways
around our problems. Why am I hyperactive? Why
do I

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Speaker 2: just blurt things out without saying
things? Why can't I sit here? Why am I so slow

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Speaker 2: on these tests? We find ways around
all those things, whether we realize it or not.

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Speaker 2: And so I had evolved into a person
that was fascinated with the natural world,

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Speaker 2: was also fascinated with very
separate [chuckles] fictional worlds, some of
which I

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Speaker 2: was creating. I loved science. Uh, I
went to, uh, college to become

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Speaker 2: a software developer. I never thought
I would get into that college. I never thought

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Speaker 2: I would be a software developer. Uh,
I didn't think I was smart enough. Uh, most of

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Speaker 2: my life I didn't think I was smart
enough, which was counter to what I was told.

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Speaker 2: [chuckles] Which was very difficult
for me. Um, what I hadn't realized until much

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Speaker 2: later on is that I had some basic
learning disabilities and that I was actually
very

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Speaker 2: slow at thinking. Had my thought
process measured, and I'm well below average in

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Speaker 2: terms of how slow I think. But I've
got a pretty good verbal intelligence, so I can

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Speaker 2: just kinda make stuff up until
eventually my brain catches up. But it explained
why

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Speaker 2: I felt like I understood things, but
I struggled so much. And in a school setting

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Speaker 2: that was very rigorous and had timed
things, um, I was just slow, and I, I

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Speaker 2: mistook being slow for being dumb.
Uh, but that wouldn't hit me until later. All

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Speaker 2: that to say is that, you know, I'm a
person who is very orderly and logical,

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Speaker 2: and, um, I've just straight up made
fun of anything I didn't understand that I felt

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Speaker 2: was well outside the realm of
materialism, even when I didn't use those words.
Uh,

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Speaker 2: reason. I felt that everything could
be explained. If you could put the whole

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Speaker 2: physical universe, uh, you can know
the state of everything, and you had just enough

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Speaker 2: understanding of how it all worked,
you could predict everything forever, right? I,

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Speaker 2: I had that belief, uh, as recent as
six years ago, maybe five years ago.

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Speaker 2: [chuckles] So all of the important
context, that's who I was. Later in my adult

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Speaker 2: life, I would, uh, come to call
myself an atheist, uh, and it felt right. I
never

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Speaker 2: liked religion. Uh, I still don't. I
don't dislike people who are religious, but it

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Speaker 2: does not feel right for me. Uh, I
didn't like dogma. I never liked being told what

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Speaker 2: to do or what to think or what I
couldn't ask. Um, that bothered me a lot. I
always

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Speaker 2: liked questions. Um, and I've always
had an accountability to truth, which, you

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Speaker 2: know, led me to questioning religion
and a lo- a lot of things. I became vegan.

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Speaker 2: I've-- We parent our children in
pretty unusual ways.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Uh, we've-- you know, we don't go to
a traditional schooling system. [chuckles] We

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Speaker 2: do a lot of things that are not
normal and weren't easy to make those choices,
but

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Speaker 2: it felt right. Uh, so that's what
life was like before a rupture for me. I had

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Speaker 2: systems, I had rules, I thought in
structure. I had a spreadsheet that I reviewed

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Speaker 2: every morning of here's who I wanna
be, here's how I work. I had a whole life that

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Speaker 2: was architected to keep me together
and keep everything working. I got pretty good

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Speaker 2: at it. [chuckles] I got pretty good
at it, but it was still so much work, um, just

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Speaker 2: to be happy. Um, I mean, I can pause
there, uh, but that, you know, that leads me

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Speaker 2: into, I guess, um, the beginning of
change.

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Speaker 1: I resonate a lot with what you've
shared, and, um, I really relate to that escape

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Speaker 1: into fantasy. I remember I didn't
feel in my skin or

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Speaker 1: comfortable with my relatives, and
anytime we would go to visit them, I would just,

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Speaker 1: like, read "Animorphs" and fantasy
novels and things like that, and I would always

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Speaker 1: get in trouble for just, like,
wanting to stay in the room and read, you know?
But

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Speaker 1: it felt safer for me. A- and I guess
I also-- you know, the way you framed it was,

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Speaker 1: like, this imaginal realm that
children are more in touch with. Imaginary

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Speaker 1: friends, you know, we think of them
as not real. For children inhabiting that space,

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Speaker 1: it is real. Like, their imagination
is so much more active. They're just, like,

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Speaker 1: constantly role-playing and playing
and pretending. But we think of it as

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Speaker 1: pretending, right? But they are
really in that world. And at some point, that
begins

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Speaker 1: to be shut down by all the voices
around us and, you know, society telling us,
"You

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Speaker 1: need to grow up. You need to be
serious."

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Speaker 1: Kids are just, like, in this realm
that are more in touch with this, um, maybe,

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Speaker 1: like, the ground of reality, like
consciousness, um.

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Speaker 2: Sure. Um, well, I think we'll come
back to the, the kid thing, uh, later

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Speaker 2: 'cause, um, I think this is a common
belief that especially in, like, spiritual

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Speaker 2: circles or a lot of these, like,
extrasensory perception circles, there's a

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Speaker 2: belief that, like, children are, are
better. There's this weird diminishment of

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Speaker 2: adults and older people, which I'm
happy to say is not true. Uh, it's not

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Speaker 2: fundamental, right? It's-

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Speaker 1: Yeah

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Speaker 2: ... correlated, uh, but not
causative. I didn't get rid of statistics and
logical

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Speaker 2: thinking. I've just, uh, incorporated
it now into a bigger worldview. Um, so-

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Speaker 1: We could take a, we could take a
minute on that if you wanna go deeper on that.
You

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Speaker 1: know, that's a really good point.

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Speaker 2: Um, sure. Uh, one of the ways I know
this is true

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Speaker 2: is that children just take the world
as it is. They're extremely malleable, but

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Speaker 2: they're also sponges, right?

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: We, we need our world models to
function in the world.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: The ch- the world could not be run by
children. It would fall apart.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't work. We need adult
selves, and I think the real goal is to have the

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Speaker 2: capacity to shift in and out of being
childlike when it's appropriate, and that

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Speaker 2: should be the real goal, is to adult
and wear pants and do taxes when you have to,

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Speaker 2: but then also be able to dance and
not care and have fun and see the world as it
is.

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Speaker 2: And, um, this can be shown. Um, there
are a number of psi abilities, so

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Speaker 2: extrasensory abilities that we'll get
into, that people thought only kids could do.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, the only instructors,
which there weren't very many, would only teach

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Speaker 2: children because they just straight
up thought adults couldn't do it. And I'm happy

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Speaker 2: to report that is absolutely not the
case.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And there is no real difference
between the performance in, between children and

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Speaker 2: adults, especially when you don't
tell the adults that kids are better at it and

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Speaker 2: that adults are bad at it.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: If you leave all that out and just
tell them they can do it, they get basically the

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Speaker 2: same performance, which I thought is
very inspiring. It has nothing to do with being

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Speaker 2: a child or not. It's just that, yeah,
they don't have as much baggage. [chuckles]

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Speaker 2: That's for sure.

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Speaker 1: There's a phrase that came to mind.
Uh, I think this is from Ken Wilber, the post

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Speaker 1: trans fallacy. It's a jargony phrase,
but it's essentially saying that like

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Speaker 1: children are in this flow state, you
know, everything really expression-

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Speaker 1: expressional, [chuckles] very
expressive, there we go.

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Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 1: But they are not enlightened. You
know, you have to go through that journey of

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Speaker 1: losing touch with that state, going
through this process of, um, self-identification

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Speaker 1: in order to transcend the ego, right?

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Speaker 2: Um, I mean, they also hit people who
take their toys and pee themselves.

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Speaker 1: [chuckles] I know. Yeah. I have two
young ones also.

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Speaker 2: There's, there's downsides to being a
child, you know? [both laughing]

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Speaker 1: I think just in this context of,
like, being in touch with the imaginal that, you

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Speaker 1: know, I was witnessing in your story,
you know, and that I resonate with. In our

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Speaker 1: culture, there's this, like, idea
that that is not as valid as, like, the logical

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Speaker 1: way of being. That's kind of like,
oh, you forget that and, like, you grow up and

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Speaker 1: you become a serious, focused,
rational adult. [chuckles] In a lot of circles,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of like what, what it
means to grow up and mature in our society.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the maturation extends
from there. I do think it's mostly

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Speaker 2: true. Gotta learn how to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And that parallels this arc
perfectly.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so towards rupture, there isn't
a single break. I've broken a bunch of times

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Speaker 2: over and over again, and there's a
few that stand out, and we'll get to those. A
lot

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Speaker 2: of things happened to me that I can't
explain. They, they happen with increasing

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Speaker 2: frequency and magnitude, and we'll
get into some of those. But it all started, uh,

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Speaker 2: I'd say two thousand twenty-two,
maybe '21, is when I started getting very

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Speaker 2: serious about meditation and being
happy, right? I wrote down here that I was

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Speaker 2: very reactive, hurried. I felt like I
was n- never doing enough. I was very

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Speaker 2: controlling, um, and I, I control...
The way I maintained stability was

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Speaker 2: through systems and control, and it
was very--

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Speaker 2: It was oppressive, right? It was a
system that had to be maintained of self,

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Speaker 2: emotional control, relations,
everything, right? And if I fail, like it falls
apart.

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Speaker 2: I- [chuckles] So it's difficult. I
got very good at understanding the mind and

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Speaker 2: motivation, emotions in humans, but
you can only understand something so much by

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Speaker 2: taking it apart into pieces and
building tools and systems. At some point, you
reach

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Speaker 2: a limit, was I was effective, but I
was unhappy, or it was

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Speaker 2: difficult to maintain it, and I hated
it, and I wanted a way to be happy. Like,

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Speaker 2: just by default, I wanted to not have
to try so hard all the time, and that led me

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Speaker 2: to, as with many people, uh, to
schools of Eastern thought, um, and I started to
get

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Speaker 2: very serious about meditation. And
that is when I started setting a daily habit of

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Speaker 2: twice a day for thirty minutes, which
would eventually turn into, uh, an hour, and

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Speaker 2: then now it's closer to two hours,
uh, a day of meditation. But I've kept it up

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Speaker 2: since then. I don't-- In terms of
recorded meditations, I'm near six hundred, but

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Speaker 2: many of them never got written down.
And that is when things started to change. Uh,

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Speaker 2: so I started doing those meditations,
and I had tried with, like many people, to do

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Speaker 2: it as a prescriptive thing. "Oh, it's
de-stress. Let's, uh..." [chuckles] Uh, this

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Speaker 2: is like a thing I have to do, like
exercise. And now it was beginning to be about

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Speaker 2: self-exploration. And I think what
really kicked it off was the book, "The

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Speaker 2: Untethered Soul," just, just an
incredible piece of work. If you could only read
one

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Speaker 2: book, oh, that's a good one. I
realized, oh, wait a minute, you can use
meditation

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Speaker 2: for more than just feeling better?
Like, and it's more than just meditation, right?

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Speaker 2: You carry these practices throughout
your life. It's a way of seeing the world. And,

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Speaker 2: um, so I start doing it like, "Oh,
you can do inner exploration." [chuckles] What

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Speaker 2: does that even mean? And so I- I'm
like, "I want that experience." I thought you

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Speaker 2: could only get this with drugs. Um,
and so I start doing it, and I start to have

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Speaker 2: fascinating experiences, which are
mostly like, you know, a sense of floating or

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Speaker 2: zooming or conscious-- shifts in
consciousness. Nothing extraordinary, something

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Speaker 2: that anyone could get with thirty
minutes of serious meditation. But now I've

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Speaker 2: brought a sense of intention to this,
and that has changed everything. And I want

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Speaker 2: more of it. [chuckles] Right. Like, I
don't just, like, feel de-stressed. Like, I

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Speaker 2: feel like a different person. Like,
my second half of my day now is like, I'm less

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Speaker 2: reactive. Like, I feel more free. I
don't feel like I have to do things in the same

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Speaker 2: way. I feel like stuff is just coming
to me easier, and this becomes pretty good

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Speaker 2: motivation [chuckles] to keep
exploring. I'll pause there if you have any
questions,

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Speaker 2: but that's really what kicks it off.

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Speaker 1: Hmm. I relate to that. A shift in
meditation, um, I've been meditating for

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Speaker 1: about twenty years now, but for the
first, like, thirteen, fourteen years of that

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Speaker 1: time, you know, it was really like
this focus training. When you're breathing, if

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Speaker 1: you had noticed a thought, come back
to your breath. Like, don't, don't think, just

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Speaker 1: be present, like pushing away
emotion, pushing away thought. And for me, there
was a

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Speaker 1: big shift when I began to kind of
become more present with my body and my emotions

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Speaker 1: and grief especially. And then
meditation became, I'm just gonna be present and
sit

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Speaker 1: with what's here and feel deeply into
my body, and there's just, like, so much that

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Speaker 1: opens up. Um, but yeah, really
interesting to hear the difference. I've never
heard

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Speaker 1: of "Untethered Soul," so I'm, I'm
always, like, interested in new book

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Speaker 1: recommendations too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very practical.

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Speaker 1: Hmm.

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Speaker 2: Um, so I, I begin to come at
meditation from I wanna understand how I

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Speaker 2: work, how consciousness works. Uh,
this begins to become a clear mystery of like, I

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Speaker 2: learn about the hard problem of
consciousness. It can't be explained easily by

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Speaker 2: material things. There's just a few
sticking points that just don't make sense. And

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Speaker 2: the question of- Why the hell is
anything here? Why does this exist at all? That

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Speaker 2: never left me since childhood. I will
say I held onto a few big questions, and I

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Speaker 2: never, I never bought [chuckles] any
popular lines for these things like, "I don't

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Speaker 2: know, man. Time is weird." [chuckles]
Existence is weird. Why am I here? Why am I

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Speaker 2: feeling anything? This doesn't make
any sense. And so I start to try to answer

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Speaker 2: those. Where are thoughts coming
from? Uh, like, why-- how does my body work? How

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Speaker 2: does it move? Where do my emotions
come from? What is my sense of self? Why does it

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Speaker 2: seem to stop at my skin, or does it?
And you begin to poke all these things, and you

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Speaker 2: go, "Holy crap, it does not."

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Speaker 1: Hmm.

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Speaker 2: And I can see where all these things
are coming from, and they're coming from not

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Speaker 2: me. Well, what is this? And you can
peel these pieces back, and I begin to have

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Speaker 2: insights that, oh, there is something
here. And so I dive even deeper, and I start

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Speaker 2: taking it apart, right? I'm trying
to... This is still very left-brained, which is

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Speaker 2: hilarious, but this is what draws me
in. And then I begin to realize I read the Yoga

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Speaker 2: Sutras. I'm like, "I'll just go to
the source of this." Like, here we go.
[chuckles]

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Speaker 2: Let's see what these guys had to say.
And it's great. And I begin to start to change

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Speaker 2: the way I set goals. Now, all of this
does eventually turn into, uh, ghosts, aliens,

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Speaker 2: and psychic powers, but-

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

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Speaker 2: ... it starts with self-improvement.
And actually, that never stops. Um, this whole

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Speaker 2: path is self-improvement. I've-- I
think I've mentioned to you that the most
uncanny

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Speaker 2: thing is that spiritual improvement
and self-improvement, the ability to do things

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Speaker 2: that do not make sense or comport
with standard material physics, is directly in

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Speaker 2: line with and really the same thing
as personal development. Working through your

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Speaker 2: problems is [chuckles] what gives you
psychic powers. It's, it's the most hilarious

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Speaker 2: thing in the world. Um, I could never
have predicted that.

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Speaker 1: Hmm.

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Speaker 2: Um, but we'll touch on that. I start
becoming interested in unconditional states.

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Speaker 2: How can I be unconditionally okay or
happy? Or what is unconditional love? Can I

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Speaker 2: extend that to other people? And I
start thinking more in terms of non-duality of,

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Speaker 2: of self. Um, I am not just me, um,
but I'm also sort of connected to other things.
I

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Speaker 2: can feel it in meditation. I feel
these things start to happen. I start to think

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Speaker 2: about non-polarities, like good
versus evil is not really a real thing. Like, I

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Speaker 2: start to see the world differently.
Like, they are real, but they're like, uh,

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Speaker 2: forces or they're just like
characters on a stage. Like, it's, it feels like
not

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Speaker 2: ultimately true. Or it's... Th- I see
everything in shades of gray now. It's more

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Speaker 2: nuanced. Um, and then weird things
start to happen to me. [chuckles]

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Speaker 2: And you wouldn't think that, oh, you
know, meditating a lot and going,

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Speaker 2: uh, trying to learn these things,
being nice to people, realizing that you are

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Speaker 2: connected to, to other people. Uh, at
this time, like, I still consider myself an

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Speaker 2: atheist, a materialist. Like, nothing
has really changed, but everything has started

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Speaker 2: to change, right? Um, at the same
time, and I'm living these things, not just in

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Speaker 2: meditation, but I'm-- 'cause it's
making my life better. I'm happier. It's easy to

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Speaker 2: be happy. And I start to change how I
set goals, more from like how do I get a thing

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Speaker 2: in five years to like it being more
important how I feel right now and like how am I

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Speaker 2: carrying myself? What am I living my
values right now? And more present-focused. It

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Speaker 2: seems so token to say those sort of
things. It's very token advice. But I really

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Speaker 2: leaned into it because it [chuckles]
obsessively because it made my life better. And

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Speaker 2: the more I did, the more things I did
not expect to start happening to me started

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Speaker 2: happening. So I guess that would be
the moment of rupture if I had to, to pick it.

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Speaker 1: Hmm.

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Speaker 2: Long lead-up. But I felt it was
important 'cause it wasn't a magical thing.
Didn't

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Speaker 2: light a bunch of candles. Uh, I
didn't, you know, read any spells. I didn't get
into

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Speaker 2: any of that stuff. Like, I didn't-

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Speaker 1: Hmm

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Speaker 2: ... see any of this coming. I was
just trying to be happier and understand myself

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Speaker 2: and the world. That was it.

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Speaker 1: Hmm. The question about like where do
thoughts begin, I resonate with, um, and I'm

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Speaker 1: curious about, you know, your
experience being a fiction writer for such a
long

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Speaker 1: time. I read this book called "Big
Magic" by Elizabeth Gilbert, and that was a

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00:22:37.568 --> 00:22:40.048
Speaker 1: paradigm-shifting book for me because
she talks about like

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Speaker 1: stories as these beings that exist
outside your own mind. And I think when I

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Speaker 1: first began writing, I thought all my
ideas came from my own head and

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Speaker 1: maybe my life history and, you know,
my interests. But the more I sat with it,

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Speaker 1: the more like I became comfortable
sitting in the uncertainty and opening

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Speaker 1: to what wanted to come through me. My
idea of like where the stories come from

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Speaker 1: totally shifted, where now I think,
yeah, I, I think that the story is a being that

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Speaker 1: exists outside space-time or in
another realm, another frequency of
consciousness, I

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Speaker 1: guess, and that I'm kind of this
conduit, and it is expressing itself into the
world

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Speaker 1: through me. I'll have no idea what
I'm gonna write, um, or I'll just have like an

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Speaker 1: inkling of it, and I'll just sit down
with my notebook, pen in hand, and I'll just

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Speaker 1: sit there in a kind of receptive
state, and then an idea strikes me, and an image

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Speaker 1: comes to me. And it's not like I
thought of an image. I thought of y- it comes to

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Speaker 1: me. And yeah, and then the more I
thought about that and practicing meditation,

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Speaker 1: you're really like exploring your
thoughts, exploring your consciousness. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm also like, I don't know where,
where are these words coming from right now? How

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Speaker 1: am I forming words? How am I talking
to you? How are we holding the thread of this

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Speaker 1: conversation? Like, all of that is
just a mystery. It's pretty weird. [chuckles]

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, nothing but mysteries. Uh,
I-- even though I accepted the

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Speaker 2: value, you know, I had those models
for materialism and the, the belief in reason

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Speaker 2: and logic and scientific method and
all of these tools and models for understanding

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Speaker 2: the world. They were very
foundational, but they were not the most
foundational

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Speaker 2: beliefs I had. Those were really an
accountability to truth and curiosity, and

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Speaker 2: ultimately those won out. [chuckles]
It was, it was not easy, um,

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Speaker 2: but I pursued a firsthand
exploration, right? That is another way of
truth.

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Speaker 2: You can prove something through
mathematics, through... Or you can come near to

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Speaker 2: proving a theory w-with science,
right? To a degree of sufficiency anyway, right?

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00:24:57.120 --> 00:25:00.720
Speaker 2: Those are excellent tools. They're
still awesome. They're still great. However,

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00:25:01.500 --> 00:25:06.780
Speaker 2: firsthand exploration is also just as
valid, right? If you hear a crazy idea, and

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00:25:06.900 --> 00:25:10.200
Speaker 2: I've heard many- [chuckles] ... I
just started following up on them. Like- Mm ...

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Speaker 2: I'll try it. Mm-hmm. We'll see what
happens. I kept doing that, and it kept

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00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:19.360
Speaker 2: surprising me, and it kept working,
and [chuckles] I haven't stopped. Not everything

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00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:24.280
Speaker 2: worked, but enough of them did that I
began to realize... Uh, well, I guess we'll go

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Speaker 2: with the moment of rupture here. Uh,
that would probably be the first UFO experience

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Speaker 2: that I had, a sighting. Um, I think
at that point in time, I h-

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Speaker 2: the, like, congressional hearings
with David Grusch had happened recently, and I'm

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Speaker 2: like, "What? Uh, what is this?"
[chuckles] I looked into this, and I'm like,
"Did he

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Speaker 2: just say what I thought he said?" And
so I start looking into this, and, and then of

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Speaker 2: course, then I see one. Um, I mean, I
can describe the experience, but this one is

347
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Speaker 2: not spectacular. Um, I'm just looking
out the back window, and I see just, like,

348
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:03.880
Speaker 2: almost like a swarm of, like,
jellyfish. There's just these flashing white
lights in

349
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:07.700
Speaker 2: the distance on the horizon, and
they're firing like a neural networks, like do,
do,

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00:26:07.760 --> 00:26:12.960
Speaker 2: do, do, do- Mm ... like in a series,
and it's just like a cloud. Um, they weren't

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Speaker 2: drones. Uh, the light was weird. It
was different. It was so bright, it was almost,

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Speaker 2: like, angry. It was, like, piercing.
Like, it was kinda like the sunlight is much

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Speaker 2: brighter than a flashlight, but you
can't tell because our eyes have, like, a, a

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Speaker 2: logar- logarithmic, um, like, curve
to them in terms of sensitivity. So a

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Speaker 2: sunlight and flashlight might look
similar, but the sun is way, way brighter

356
00:26:36.760 --> 00:26:41.260
Speaker 2: [chuckles] than you think it is. This
was like that. It was exceedingly bright, but

357
00:26:41.320 --> 00:26:45.840
Speaker 2: only for a second. And I'm like, "Am
I really seeing this?" Like, that's crazy. And

358
00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:51.220
Speaker 2: that's it. They just float by, and
that started, of course, this

359
00:26:52.100 --> 00:26:56.820
Speaker 2: UFOs are a gateway drug, as many
people know. [chuckles] Uh, not by accident, as
I

360
00:26:56.860 --> 00:27:01.940
Speaker 2: later find out, uh, of course, and,
you know, become obsessed about this. I needed

361
00:27:02.020 --> 00:27:07.880
Speaker 2: to know, because this doesn't fit my
world model. And, um, I continue to

362
00:27:07.940 --> 00:27:11.720
Speaker 2: meditate, I continue to explore, but
now I'm starting to look into other things as

363
00:27:11.780 --> 00:27:16.280
Speaker 2: well, uh, and they start to come
across my path. Um, so those are extrasensory

364
00:27:16.320 --> 00:27:20.940
Speaker 2: abilities. Even, like, traditional
stuff. Dean Radin's books, get into those. Great

365
00:27:21.020 --> 00:27:26.500
Speaker 2: stuff. These are modern takes on, on
magic. The Yoga Sutras even describe siddhis. I

366
00:27:26.540 --> 00:27:29.540
Speaker 2: start looking into that. I'm like,
"What is this?" Like, all these people are

367
00:27:29.580 --> 00:27:33.080
Speaker 2: talking about this. Maybe there's
something... I was wrong about this. What else
am

368
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:38.820
Speaker 2: I wrong about, right? That is the one
crack that shatters everything else, is, okay,

369
00:27:38.900 --> 00:27:43.460
Speaker 2: well, I was really wrong. Like, why
would I not be really wrong about all this other

370
00:27:43.520 --> 00:27:48.420
Speaker 2: stuff? So now I have to go do
another, uh, on my own. Fine. All right. Let's
go look

371
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.420
Speaker 2: into [chuckles] cryptozoology. Look
into all of these things, because I don't know

372
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:57.260
Speaker 2: what else is wrong. And to my great
surprise, um, many of them end up being true. So

373
00:27:57.340 --> 00:28:02.780
Speaker 2: I start testing them firsthand. Um,
and I have another UFO

374
00:28:02.820 --> 00:28:07.780
Speaker 2: experience. Uh, I'm in a pretty deep
non-dual meditative state after a child's

375
00:28:07.820 --> 00:28:11.860
Speaker 2: birthday party. Only somebody with y-
very young children could possibly understand

376
00:28:11.900 --> 00:28:15.660
Speaker 2: why that would be necessary.
[chuckles] It's like a four-hour party, and by
the end,

377
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:21.060
Speaker 2: it's at an arcade. I'm just like,
"I'm either gonna die or I'm gonna have to enter

378
00:28:21.120 --> 00:28:26.940
Speaker 2: some sort of trance state here to
survive." [chuckles] So I do, and I'm pretty
deep

379
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:31.720
Speaker 2: in it. I don't have, like, complete
ego dissolution, but I'm, I'm a field of

380
00:28:31.780 --> 00:28:35.680
Speaker 2: awareness. And I decide... We get
home. I decide to go for a run, and I'm running,

381
00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:42.280
Speaker 2: and I'm just, like, watching a person
run. [chuckles] It's like, cool. Uh, I'm

382
00:28:42.340 --> 00:28:46.540
Speaker 2: pretty out there. And then I look up.
I have a feeling I'm going to see something on

383
00:28:46.580 --> 00:28:50.219
Speaker 2: the way home. I'm in the passenger
seat. My wife is driving. I get home, and I go

384
00:28:50.260 --> 00:28:54.640
Speaker 2: for a run, and I look up over my
house, and I see a

385
00:28:55.520 --> 00:29:01.520
Speaker 2: four-foot-ish tall, uh, matte black
kidney bean-shaped object floating in

386
00:29:01.560 --> 00:29:05.960
Speaker 2: a straight line about a quarter of a
mile behind my house, and it goes behind a tree

387
00:29:06.020 --> 00:29:11.580
Speaker 2: line. It's just flight- floating in a
straight line. Um, and of course, I see it.

388
00:29:11.660 --> 00:29:15.580
Speaker 2: I'm pretty deep in, and I go, "Oh
yeah, that makes sense." That's literally the

389
00:29:15.620 --> 00:29:19.160
Speaker 2: thought that comes to my mind after
having almost no thoughts for a while. I'm like,

390
00:29:19.320 --> 00:29:23.540
Speaker 2: "Yeah, that makes sense." And then I
start to get pulled out of that real quick, and

391
00:29:23.620 --> 00:29:28.040
Speaker 2: I go, "Wait a minute. What the hell?
No, no, no. [chuckles] What, what am I looking

392
00:29:28.120 --> 00:29:34.000
Speaker 2: at?" Uh, that actually shouldn't
exist, and I snap back to association pretty

393
00:29:34.060 --> 00:29:39.660
Speaker 2: quickly, and then I start to panic.
Like, I wanna go, like, jump some

394
00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:43.300
Speaker 2: fences and go, like, run at this
thing, 'cause it's, like, in a cul-de-sac in the

395
00:29:43.340 --> 00:29:47.060
Speaker 2: neighborhood behind us. I'm like, "I
wanna go look at this." Um, it's got this,

396
00:29:47.100 --> 00:29:51.280
Speaker 2: like, mother-of-pearl sheen on it,
and it's floating in a, in a line. Like, this

397
00:29:51.300 --> 00:29:57.260
Speaker 2: thing is not moving. Um, and then I
start to get very scared. I'm like,

398
00:29:57.500 --> 00:30:02.960
Speaker 2: "Oh, I can't do that." Like, if I go
run and try to find this thing, like, nobody's

399
00:30:03.020 --> 00:30:06.600
Speaker 2: gonna know. If I, [chuckles] if I
disappear, literally nobody on this planet could

400
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:12.440
Speaker 2: help me if this goes wrong. Um, and
but so that one really rocks my

401
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:15.400
Speaker 2: world because I know what I've seen,
right? This isn't just some lights in the

402
00:30:15.460 --> 00:30:21.380
Speaker 2: distance. Like, this is a physical
appearing thing, right? Uh, I, and

403
00:30:21.460 --> 00:30:25.100
Speaker 2: I know what I saw. I drew pictures
immediately afterward. I tried to describe

404
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:30.600
Speaker 2: everything I could in my own
journals, and that rocked my world. And I took a
lot of

405
00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:36.576
Speaker 2: these things much more seriously. And
then of course, after that, I do end up having

406
00:30:36.636 --> 00:30:41.756
Speaker 2: two more UFO experiences, but that is
when I start to have more personal and

407
00:30:41.816 --> 00:30:46.776
Speaker 2: profound experiences that are not,
like, in the sky or not happening outside of me,

408
00:30:47.516 --> 00:30:52.476
Speaker 2: uh, but are definitely happening to
me. It feels much more personal and directed. So

409
00:30:52.536 --> 00:30:53.656
Speaker 2: I mean, we can get into that, but-

410
00:30:53.956 --> 00:30:54.036
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

411
00:30:54.036 --> 00:30:55.116
Speaker 2: ... whatever you wanna get into.

412
00:30:55.496 --> 00:31:01.356
Speaker 1: [chuckles] Uh, thank you for sharing
that. I love the impulse that you had

413
00:31:01.416 --> 00:31:04.856
Speaker 1: to run at the being, but then you're
like, "Maybe I shouldn't." [chuckles]

414
00:31:04.896 --> 00:31:07.236
Speaker 2: I, actually, that's a bad idea.
[chuckles]

415
00:31:07.336 --> 00:31:11.176
Speaker 1: I don't know where this thing could
take me or what this thing is. Yeah. [chuckles]

416
00:31:11.236 --> 00:31:13.656
Speaker 2: Yeah. Who's gonna save me? [chuckles]

417
00:31:13.716 --> 00:31:16.696
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm a similar kind of
thing. Like, if I saw something, I'd be like,

418
00:31:17.196 --> 00:31:19.656
Speaker 1: "Yes, like finally." [chuckles]

419
00:31:19.716 --> 00:31:20.896
Speaker 2: You think you'd be excited-

420
00:31:21.036 --> 00:31:21.056
Speaker 1: Yeah

421
00:31:21.056 --> 00:31:22.516
Speaker 2: ... but when you're actually there-

422
00:31:22.836 --> 00:31:22.876
Speaker 1: Mm

423
00:31:22.876 --> 00:31:27.016
Speaker 2: ... and it's actually in front of
you, you're like, "Holy shit."

424
00:31:27.436 --> 00:31:28.636
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, ontological shock-

425
00:31:28.716 --> 00:31:28.756
Speaker 2: I am-

426
00:31:28.796 --> 00:31:29.456
Speaker 1: ... terror. Yeah

427
00:31:29.456 --> 00:31:31.996
Speaker 2: ... I'm legitimately horrified.

428
00:31:32.356 --> 00:31:32.496
Speaker 1: Mm.

429
00:31:32.596 --> 00:31:35.476
Speaker 2: But I was also fascinated at the same
time. I was really being ripped-

430
00:31:35.476 --> 00:31:35.536
Speaker 1: Yeah

431
00:31:35.556 --> 00:31:37.895
Speaker 2: ... apart there. [chuckles]

432
00:31:38.036 --> 00:31:41.036
Speaker 1: Being ripped apart. [chuckles]

433
00:31:41.036 --> 00:31:41.256
Speaker 2: [chuckles]

434
00:31:41.356 --> 00:31:47.016
Speaker 1: Um, I, I like the phrase you used,
"UFOs were a gateway drug." I mean, you had an

435
00:31:47.056 --> 00:31:51.516
Speaker 1: experience that shattered your
reality. You know, you could've just been like,
"Oh,

436
00:31:51.576 --> 00:31:55.136
Speaker 1: that didn't really happen," or maybe
it was not... I was seeing something or I

437
00:31:55.176 --> 00:31:58.136
Speaker 1: wasn't in my right mind, which is
maybe how a lot of people would write that off.

438
00:31:58.556 --> 00:32:01.636
Speaker 1: But I think it happened because you
were, you know, already doing all this inner

439
00:32:01.696 --> 00:32:05.996
Speaker 1: work and meditation, and you're
already on this process of experiencing paradigm

440
00:32:06.036 --> 00:32:11.956
Speaker 1: shift. Um, and it kind of was like,
uh, the experience that could, like, invite you

441
00:32:12.016 --> 00:32:17.896
Speaker 1: into something deeper maybe. My own
experience, um, encountering my, like, the

442
00:32:17.956 --> 00:32:23.296
Speaker 1: chakras in my body, um, I had like a,
what I understand to be a kundalini awakening,

443
00:32:24.256 --> 00:32:30.096
Speaker 1: um, and energy experiences, big,
really big energy, state energy

444
00:32:30.156 --> 00:32:31.236
Speaker 1: body experiences-

445
00:32:31.836 --> 00:32:31.876
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

446
00:32:31.876 --> 00:32:37.796
Speaker 1: ... um, in many psychedelic journeys,
and outside of them too, that, uh, shatter-

447
00:32:37.956 --> 00:32:41.596
Speaker 1: like, that were... I mean, like,
similar to you, there were all these ruptures
along

448
00:32:41.635 --> 00:32:45.696
Speaker 1: the way, but that was a really big
paradigm shift where I was like... I mean, I
knew

449
00:32:45.816 --> 00:32:50.216
Speaker 1: about them. I'd studied, like,
meditation. I was fascinated with the siddhis
when I

450
00:32:50.256 --> 00:32:55.996
Speaker 1: was, uh, in undergrad and beginning
to study Buddhism, you know, loving fantasy

451
00:32:56.036 --> 00:32:58.936
Speaker 1: novels. I was like, "Oh, yogic
superpowers." Like, I'd love to have-

452
00:32:59.376 --> 00:32:59.436
Speaker 2: Yeah

453
00:32:59.456 --> 00:33:04.416
Speaker 1: ... some of those. [chuckles] Um, but
yeah, you know, it was like, it was

454
00:33:05.976 --> 00:33:09.676
Speaker 1: finally an experience that happened
to me that was, like, outside of the, you know,

455
00:33:09.796 --> 00:33:14.236
Speaker 1: the, the paradigm I had been
inhabiting, and it was just, like, really
personal and

456
00:33:14.316 --> 00:33:19.856
Speaker 1: intimate and real. And I don't know
what I thought about. Like, these things exist

457
00:33:19.896 --> 00:33:25.356
Speaker 1: on our peripheries. Like, everybody
knows that people tell stories about UFOs or

458
00:33:25.836 --> 00:33:29.956
Speaker 1: that there are people out there who
claim to have had experiences with UFOs. Like,

459
00:33:30.136 --> 00:33:34.716
Speaker 1: when we're growing up, you know, or,
you know, in the mainstream culture, all of

460
00:33:34.756 --> 00:33:39.676
Speaker 1: these traditions that talk about body
energy, chakra, chi, prana, like kundalini,

461
00:33:39.776 --> 00:33:45.556
Speaker 1: like all over the world. But somehow,
you're just kind of like, I don't know where,

462
00:33:45.896 --> 00:33:49.456
Speaker 1: what I thought of it. I can't even
relate to myself back then. Like, what did I

463
00:33:49.476 --> 00:33:50.236
Speaker 1: think that was?

464
00:33:50.956 --> 00:33:51.076
Speaker 2: Yep.

465
00:33:51.476 --> 00:33:54.956
Speaker 1: Until I had an experience and I was
like, "Oh my God, the chakras are real."

466
00:33:55.216 --> 00:33:57.696
Speaker 2: You have to. You have to experience
it firsthand.

467
00:33:57.976 --> 00:33:57.996
Speaker 1: Yeah.

468
00:33:58.016 --> 00:33:58.856
Speaker 2: There's no replacement.

469
00:33:59.416 --> 00:33:59.476
Speaker 1: Mm.

470
00:33:59.536 --> 00:34:03.116
Speaker 2: You can't be told, and that is also a
running theme here, is that you have to be

471
00:34:03.156 --> 00:34:08.116
Speaker 2: shown. Being told is enough to get
you to go, but you have to seek it out. This is

472
00:34:08.176 --> 00:34:11.896
Speaker 2: so clear over and over again. You
have to seek this out with your own curiosity,

473
00:34:11.976 --> 00:34:15.576
Speaker 2: your own desire to do it firsthand.
You have to struggle through it. You have to get

474
00:34:15.636 --> 00:34:19.396
Speaker 2: shattered over and over again and put
your world back together, and you have to keep

475
00:34:19.456 --> 00:34:23.376
Speaker 2: coming back for more, and then this
whole world opens up to you.

476
00:34:23.956 --> 00:34:24.076
Speaker 1: Mm.

477
00:34:24.176 --> 00:34:29.716
Speaker 2: Um, and yeah, you don't have to start
with UFOs. A- any... It's really a curiosity

478
00:34:29.776 --> 00:34:35.236
Speaker 2: and a drive and openness, uh, to
eventually accept what you have

479
00:34:35.276 --> 00:34:40.196
Speaker 2: experienced and to make meaning of
it, and then it will keep happening. That's what

480
00:34:40.236 --> 00:34:46.236
Speaker 2: happened to me. So you described a
sort of chakra experience. I'm, wasn't steeped

481
00:34:46.276 --> 00:34:51.076
Speaker 2: in this world. Like, I didn't know
what that was. Uh, I started to have

482
00:34:51.796 --> 00:34:57.616
Speaker 2: experiences like that late 2024. I
was doing a

483
00:34:57.656 --> 00:35:03.516
Speaker 2: meditation. It was a long one. It
went up about two hours, and I was seeing, like,

484
00:35:03.776 --> 00:35:09.636
Speaker 2: visuals. Like, it looked like music
visuals, like, uh, uh, visualizations you might

485
00:35:09.676 --> 00:35:14.176
Speaker 2: expect, looking through, like,
tunnels of various geometric colored shapes. I
was

486
00:35:14.256 --> 00:35:17.796
Speaker 2: seeing it in my visual field with my
eyes closed. Like, it was there. It wasn't

487
00:35:17.876 --> 00:35:23.116
Speaker 2: super bright, but I could see it.
There was all sorts of symbols, and then I felt
a

488
00:35:23.336 --> 00:35:28.396
Speaker 2: burning sensation in my chest. Like,
it was a bonfire in there. And when I was done,

489
00:35:28.456 --> 00:35:32.896
Speaker 2: and it was still going, and then I
was starting to get worried. Like, after, I was

490
00:35:32.936 --> 00:35:38.896
Speaker 2: feeling better than I'd ever felt
before. Uh, but at the same time, um, I was

491
00:35:38.936 --> 00:35:43.136
Speaker 2: like, "Why is there, like, literal
fire and heat in my chest? Like, what is

492
00:35:43.176 --> 00:35:47.836
Speaker 2: happening?" And so I had to go learn
about these things afterward. But for me, that

493
00:35:47.856 --> 00:35:51.756
Speaker 2: was also very validating because it's
not like I imagined it. I didn't know what

494
00:35:51.796 --> 00:35:56.836
Speaker 2: this was. I had no idea what I was
experiencing. It was just happening to me. Like,

495
00:35:56.896 --> 00:36:01.176
Speaker 2: I just stumbled into it, and so I had
to make sense of events like that. Like, "Oh,

496
00:36:01.236 --> 00:36:05.916
Speaker 2: okay. I guess inner, this energy
stuff is a thing. I always thought that this was

497
00:36:05.956 --> 00:36:06.736
Speaker 2: made up and stupid."

498
00:36:07.096 --> 00:36:07.156
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

499
00:36:07.216 --> 00:36:12.896
Speaker 2: Uh, but, uh, I am absolutely feeling
this and various other things. Like, this is

500
00:36:12.956 --> 00:36:17.456
Speaker 2: definitely happening. Like
somatically, I can feel it. This isn't just
imagination.

501
00:36:17.496 --> 00:36:21.176
Speaker 2: Like, this is bordering on pain, it's
so strong.

502
00:36:21.476 --> 00:36:21.477
Speaker 1: Mm.

503
00:36:21.496 --> 00:36:25.996
Speaker 2: Like, I... [chuckles] Okay,
something's going on. I gotta go figure this
out, which

504
00:36:26.036 --> 00:36:30.436
Speaker 2: of course leads to the next domino,
right? The, and these events just keep

505
00:36:30.476 --> 00:36:36.412
Speaker 2: happening. I'm waking up in the
middle of the night I'm having profoundly vivid
and

506
00:36:36.492 --> 00:36:40.852
Speaker 2: strange dreams. I'm waking up in the
middle of conversations. I didn't get the first

507
00:36:40.892 --> 00:36:44.852
Speaker 2: part of the conversation, but I see
myself talking. Or I'm waking up, like, in a

508
00:36:44.912 --> 00:36:49.532
Speaker 2: liminal state, and my thoughts are
going. I'm well aware of, like, my thoughts are

509
00:36:49.572 --> 00:36:54.072
Speaker 2: not always my own. Some are more
mine, less mine. It's like a spectrum. And I'm

510
00:36:54.132 --> 00:36:58.692
Speaker 2: talking. I'm watching myself talk,
and I'm slowly waking up like, "Who the hell am
I

511
00:36:58.712 --> 00:37:01.972
Speaker 2: talking to? [laughs] What is
happening? Who am I talking to?"

512
00:37:02.492 --> 00:37:02.552
Speaker 1: Hmm.

513
00:37:02.712 --> 00:37:08.392
Speaker 2: These things keep happening. I have
nightmares that feel extremely vivid, and

514
00:37:08.752 --> 00:37:13.552
Speaker 2: there's, like, something there. I
feel this instinctive, like, terror, sense that,

515
00:37:13.972 --> 00:37:18.452
Speaker 2: oh, no, there... This is, like,
happening. Like, I'm in a dream, but I'm not
alone

516
00:37:18.472 --> 00:37:23.252
Speaker 2: in my dream. There's some- somebody
or something else in my dream. Or I would wake

517
00:37:23.352 --> 00:37:28.132
Speaker 2: up, and I would feel the sense of a
presence. Or deep in meditation, I started to

518
00:37:28.192 --> 00:37:34.192
Speaker 2: get thoughts that did not feel like
my own. And I can say that because when

519
00:37:34.232 --> 00:37:37.572
Speaker 2: you've been meditating for 45 minutes
and you haven't had a thought in 20 minutes,

520
00:37:37.672 --> 00:37:42.692
Speaker 2: and it is just still as the ocean,
and you're just like, "Yeah." [laughs]

521
00:37:42.712 --> 00:37:42.812
Speaker 1: Hmm.

522
00:37:42.872 --> 00:37:48.232
Speaker 2: And then you get a thought like, "Why
do you come in here?" That was one of the ones

523
00:37:48.292 --> 00:37:51.312
Speaker 2: I wrote down. It's from one of the
first verbal thoughts I got. I was like, "Why do

524
00:37:51.352 --> 00:37:55.032
Speaker 2: you come in here?" Like, 'cause I
meditate in a closet. [laughs] I'm like... It
was

525
00:37:55.092 --> 00:37:59.132
Speaker 2: loud. That is jarring. When you're
just... You're not trying to make anything

526
00:37:59.172 --> 00:38:02.152
Speaker 2: happen. There's nothing on your mind.
You're just still as the ocean, just like,

527
00:38:02.612 --> 00:38:06.592
Speaker 2: "Hey, why do you come in here?"
[laughs] What's going on? Where did that come
from?

528
00:38:07.312 --> 00:38:07.672
Speaker 2: Um-

529
00:38:07.932 --> 00:38:09.452
Speaker 1: Are you hearing this, like, audibly?

530
00:38:10.612 --> 00:38:16.332
Speaker 2: That one was a verbal thought. I do
get clairaudience

531
00:38:16.392 --> 00:38:18.772
Speaker 2: sometimes, which is a sense of sound.

532
00:38:19.312 --> 00:38:19.372
Speaker 1: Hmm.

533
00:38:19.412 --> 00:38:22.792
Speaker 2: It doesn't usually have a source, but
it is heard in the same way that you hear

534
00:38:22.852 --> 00:38:26.792
Speaker 2: sounds. It just sounds like it's
coming from everywhere. If you were to play a
sound

535
00:38:26.832 --> 00:38:30.712
Speaker 2: through headphones, and it's the same
in both speakers, it's kinda like that. I do

536
00:38:30.772 --> 00:38:35.412
Speaker 2: get those sometimes. They're not as
common. It's mostly verbal thoughts. But it was

537
00:38:35.472 --> 00:38:41.352
Speaker 2: the out of context nature of the
thought that was like, I absolutely did not make

538
00:38:41.392 --> 00:38:45.972
Speaker 2: that happen. Wherever it comes from,
however you wanna claim the, the cognitive

539
00:38:46.012 --> 00:38:51.972
Speaker 2: science of it, this was directed. It
was inserted into my head. [laughs] And I start

540
00:38:52.012 --> 00:38:57.512
Speaker 2: to get those, at first during
meditation, um, and usually it's, like,

541
00:38:58.152 --> 00:39:01.932
Speaker 2: helpful. [laughs] Um, I went through
my old journals, and, like, I start to go

542
00:39:01.972 --> 00:39:05.572
Speaker 2: through these, like, what are they
saying? It's like advice. You cannot give to

543
00:39:05.672 --> 00:39:09.892
Speaker 2: others what you deny yourself, right?
Just hear that thought. I'm staring at a fire.

544
00:39:10.572 --> 00:39:15.672
Speaker 2: I'm, like, super, like, uh,
dissociated. Then I hear, "You are the fire.
You're the

545
00:39:15.732 --> 00:39:20.672
Speaker 2: same thing." [laughs] Like, just
comes out of nowhere. So that starts to happen.
And

546
00:39:20.712 --> 00:39:26.552
Speaker 2: then I start to get out of context
emotions, as in I'm feeling an emotion that

547
00:39:26.612 --> 00:39:30.432
Speaker 2: is completely dissimilar to what I'm
doing. I'm just chilling, just, like, walking

548
00:39:30.472 --> 00:39:35.932
Speaker 2: around, doing chores, and I feel,
like, a profound, like, sadness or longing or,

549
00:39:35.992 --> 00:39:40.732
Speaker 2: like, curiosity and the impression
of, like, a smile or that somebody is watching

550
00:39:40.772 --> 00:39:44.932
Speaker 2: me. It's like, "What the hell is
happening to me?" [laughs]

551
00:39:44.952 --> 00:39:44.953
Speaker 1: Hmm.

552
00:39:44.992 --> 00:39:49.692
Speaker 2: Where is this coming from? [laughs]
Like, there's somebody there, but there's nobody

553
00:39:49.752 --> 00:39:54.992
Speaker 2: physically present, right? And so
that starts to happen more, uh, and more.

554
00:39:55.672 --> 00:40:01.212
Speaker 2: And, um, I have to start taking it
seriously because, I mean, it's scary.

555
00:40:01.212 --> 00:40:06.632
Speaker 2: [laughs] I don't know what else to
put that. Like, it's, um, it's frightening, uh,

556
00:40:06.712 --> 00:40:11.192
Speaker 2: because I have no model for this. I
don't come from any sort of background. None of

557
00:40:11.212 --> 00:40:14.732
Speaker 2: my friends talk about this, none of
my family. This is not normal. I've got some

558
00:40:15.672 --> 00:40:21.452
Speaker 2: pretty, like, watered-down, uh,
modern Christian, like, parents, but for the
most

559
00:40:21.512 --> 00:40:25.232
Speaker 2: part, [laughs] they don't even go to
church. Like, uh, I have no grounding. I have

560
00:40:25.312 --> 00:40:30.312
Speaker 2: no idea what's happening to me. Uh,
and that's the, the sort of stage I'm in, I

561
00:40:30.312 --> 00:40:33.912
Speaker 2: don't know, starting a year or so
ago, I guess, is when this starts to happen, but

562
00:40:34.032 --> 00:40:38.512
Speaker 2: I, I'm pushing it away, right? I'm
not... This is not good. Like, [laughs] you

563
00:40:38.592 --> 00:40:44.072
Speaker 2: can't... Everyone talks to
themselves. This is not how talking to myself
feels, and

564
00:40:44.152 --> 00:40:48.172
Speaker 2: I already have a pretty fractured and
chaotic mind on a regular basis, but this is

565
00:40:48.232 --> 00:40:52.232
Speaker 2: new, right? This is not how I
normally experience things.

566
00:40:53.472 --> 00:40:58.012
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's... I mean, what comes to
mind is, like, how our culture would make

567
00:40:58.052 --> 00:41:03.772
Speaker 1: sense of those experiences would
probably say schizophrenia,

568
00:41:04.132 --> 00:41:09.012
Speaker 1: right? Hearing voices in your head,
seeing things that aren't there, things like

569
00:41:09.072 --> 00:41:14.372
Speaker 1: that, versus there's another way of
understanding it as spiritual emergence,

570
00:41:15.152 --> 00:41:20.652
Speaker 1: the shattering of a paradigm emerging
into a greater reality, a broader

571
00:41:21.292 --> 00:41:26.172
Speaker 1: universe where weird shit happens.
Like, it's like the weirdness and strangeness-

572
00:41:26.192 --> 00:41:26.252
Speaker 2: Yeah

573
00:41:26.252 --> 00:41:31.312
Speaker 1: ... you know? And, um, I'm curious,
like, how do you remain grounded as all of

574
00:41:31.372 --> 00:41:36.132
Speaker 1: these, uh, anomalous things begin
happening to you? How do you not lose yourself
in

575
00:41:36.192 --> 00:41:36.352
Speaker 1: them?

576
00:41:37.812 --> 00:41:43.392
Speaker 2: I'd struggled profoundly with a
chaotic mind and lack of self-control, uh,
emotional

577
00:41:43.452 --> 00:41:49.292
Speaker 2: instability my entire life. Like, I,
I had learned how, frankly, to not trust

578
00:41:49.332 --> 00:41:54.112
Speaker 2: myself but still rely on myself. I'd
learned that I couldn't, right? I already had

579
00:41:54.172 --> 00:41:58.812
Speaker 2: that humility. Like, I already knew
what it was like to fall apart over and over

580
00:41:58.852 --> 00:42:01.612
Speaker 2: again and put yourself back together
'cause you gotta go to work next week, right?

581
00:42:01.912 --> 00:42:05.732
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter that you have
literally zero motivation for no reason. It
doesn't

582
00:42:05.792 --> 00:42:09.972
Speaker 2: matter that you're incredibly
depressed with no apparent cause. Uh, you gotta
get it

583
00:42:09.992 --> 00:42:13.212
Speaker 2: together, right? [laughs] You gotta
just get it together. I had already learned,

584
00:42:13.272 --> 00:42:18.752
Speaker 2: like, how to, like, control myself
and a level of humility,

585
00:42:19.032 --> 00:42:23.312
Speaker 2: [laughs] put it that way, and those
tools really came in h- And I'd been meditating

586
00:42:23.352 --> 00:42:27.912
Speaker 2: at this point for years, so I knew
how to sort of take an observer perspective. I

587
00:42:28.012 --> 00:42:34.012
Speaker 2: knew how to step back and to be okay.
So I had these things to fall back on, and

588
00:42:34.132 --> 00:42:39.696
Speaker 2: I really needed every single one of
those tools And ultimately, I wanted to know

589
00:42:39.736 --> 00:42:44.036
Speaker 2: what was true. And although I've
mentioned some scary things, most of the

590
00:42:44.076 --> 00:42:49.256
Speaker 2: experiences, even now and especially
now more so, were very loving and, like,

591
00:42:50.316 --> 00:42:56.036
Speaker 2: strange, but not bad, right?
[chuckles] Uh, so it's not like

592
00:42:56.916 --> 00:43:01.156
Speaker 2: it was getting worse, like it was,
uh, like a haunting movie or like, [chuckles]
you

593
00:43:01.236 --> 00:43:06.336
Speaker 2: know? Or things just continue to get
worse. Um, it was getting magnified, but it

594
00:43:06.396 --> 00:43:12.056
Speaker 2: wasn't bad. And, and so that, that
helped a lot as well. And I wanted to know.

595
00:43:12.316 --> 00:43:17.576
Speaker 2: Ultimately, I couldn't rest because
I, I needed to know. And of course, I ruled

596
00:43:17.636 --> 00:43:22.916
Speaker 2: everything out. You know, I, I seek
psychiatric help. I, I obsessively research on

597
00:43:22.956 --> 00:43:27.056
Speaker 2: my own. It doesn't fit any of these
models. Like, I go through it. I'm reading

598
00:43:27.116 --> 00:43:28.736
Speaker 2: books. Like, [chuckles] doing
everything.

599
00:43:29.016 --> 00:43:29.136
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

600
00:43:29.156 --> 00:43:33.196
Speaker 2: And I'm being honest because I want
it. At this point, I'm like, "I would love for

601
00:43:33.256 --> 00:43:37.036
Speaker 2: this to be insanity. That would be
great." [chuckles] That would be way easier.
Give

602
00:43:37.076 --> 00:43:38.276
Speaker 2: me the label, so I'm all for it.

603
00:43:38.636 --> 00:43:38.756
Speaker 1: Mm.

604
00:43:38.796 --> 00:43:42.476
Speaker 2: But none of them fit, and no one
would diagnose me with that because it didn't
fit.

605
00:43:42.976 --> 00:43:46.616
Speaker 2: It's like, "You're good." Like,
"Dude, just don't worry about it. Like, pursue

606
00:43:46.676 --> 00:43:50.836
Speaker 2: this." Uh, a very enlightened
psychiatrist is like, "The worst thing you could
do is

607
00:43:50.876 --> 00:43:52.256
Speaker 2: suppress this. You need to go-

608
00:43:53.236 --> 00:43:53.237
Speaker 1: Mm.

609
00:43:53.256 --> 00:43:55.636
Speaker 2: "You need to go see this through and
check it out. And as long as you're not hurting

610
00:43:55.696 --> 00:43:59.416
Speaker 2: anyone or you don't feel like you're
in any danger or, like, you can function,

611
00:43:59.636 --> 00:44:05.236
Speaker 2: you're... And it feels good and not
bad, go. Like, go explore this. You need to find

612
00:44:05.276 --> 00:44:08.676
Speaker 2: out who you are and what's happening
to you. I'm not here to tell you what's not

613
00:44:08.736 --> 00:44:13.096
Speaker 2: true. I'm here to tell you that
you're not crazy in the ways that we have
learned to

614
00:44:13.176 --> 00:44:17.396
Speaker 2: call, like, DSM-5 labels. You don't
have any of these, or to the degree you do,

615
00:44:17.576 --> 00:44:21.516
Speaker 2: you're not dysfunctional. It's not
that. I'm not here to tell you what's true. You

616
00:44:21.556 --> 00:44:24.976
Speaker 2: go figure that out on your own."
[chuckles] Like, oh, cool. Pretty good

617
00:44:24.996 --> 00:44:30.776
Speaker 2: psychiatrist. Um, so I do. And I
start learning other

618
00:44:30.836 --> 00:44:36.716
Speaker 2: skills, um, like telekinesis. Uh, you
can move things around, and

619
00:44:36.796 --> 00:44:40.596
Speaker 2: that profoundly changes [chuckles]
your whole world when you learn how to do that.

620
00:44:40.636 --> 00:44:44.896
Speaker 2: It took me a long time. I stared at a
piece of tinfoil sitting on a needle, commonly

621
00:44:44.936 --> 00:44:49.596
Speaker 2: called a psi wheel, and it has very
little friction, so it spins very easily. It's

622
00:44:49.636 --> 00:44:52.836
Speaker 2: just a piece of little tent of
aluminum foil over a needle stuck into, like, a

623
00:44:52.916 --> 00:44:53.876
Speaker 2: sponge or eraser.

624
00:44:54.296 --> 00:44:54.436
Speaker 1: Hmm.

625
00:44:54.536 --> 00:44:57.896
Speaker 2: It's got very little friction. That
thing will turn easily. Basically a pinwheel.

626
00:44:58.416 --> 00:45:03.576
Speaker 2: And, um, you can use that to train,
right? The goal is, uh, move. [chuckles] Just

627
00:45:03.656 --> 00:45:07.496
Speaker 2: however you do it. I stared at that
thing for 30 hours. Like, I read a book on

628
00:45:07.556 --> 00:45:11.576
Speaker 2: telekinesis. I'm like, I was on board
for an idealistic universe at this point.

629
00:45:11.616 --> 00:45:15.716
Speaker 2: Like, I mean, what else could explain
all this crazy stuff? And, um-

630
00:45:16.156 --> 00:45:19.316
Speaker 1: Could you pause just for a second and
explain what idealistic universe means?

631
00:45:19.336 --> 00:45:25.136
Speaker 2: [chuckles] Sure. Uh, that, um, matter
is not fundamental.

632
00:45:25.416 --> 00:45:30.996
Speaker 2: It is ideas and non-physical
concepts, energy, consciousness is fundamental.

633
00:45:31.556 --> 00:45:36.456
Speaker 2: It is consciousness and the things in
its contents. Doesn't mean there's not rules,

634
00:45:36.956 --> 00:45:42.156
Speaker 2: uh, but that nothing is off limits,
basically. It's imagination, right? There is no

635
00:45:42.216 --> 00:45:47.256
Speaker 2: real line between imagination and
material reality. It's mostly a matter of
patience

636
00:45:47.276 --> 00:45:50.196
Speaker 2: and preference. But eventually, those
two always converge.

637
00:45:50.536 --> 00:45:50.836
Speaker 1: Hmm.

638
00:45:50.916 --> 00:45:56.136
Speaker 2: Uh, it's more like a spectrum. Uh, so
you have to take my word for it for now, but

639
00:45:56.176 --> 00:46:01.716
Speaker 2: that's my view of reality. But yeah,
once you've... After about 30 hours, I got that

640
00:46:01.756 --> 00:46:07.276
Speaker 2: thing to move without touching it.
And, um, I recorded it, and I cried because I...

641
00:46:07.536 --> 00:46:12.076
Speaker 2: You know, it was so validating,
right? You can have these crazy experiences, but
it

642
00:46:12.116 --> 00:46:15.816
Speaker 2: wasn't you doing it, right? It felt
like things that were happening to me. This was,

643
00:46:15.856 --> 00:46:19.656
Speaker 2: like, the first time that, like, oh,
I can use this. Like, this is not only real,

644
00:46:19.736 --> 00:46:23.996
Speaker 2: but, like, I can do something. I'm
not just a helpless victim. Like, I can

645
00:46:24.036 --> 00:46:29.396
Speaker 2: participate. Uh, this is, I can do
stuff. So I got better at that, and I start to

646
00:46:29.416 --> 00:46:33.436
Speaker 2: get into remote viewing, and I start
to use that as a way of exploring reality as

647
00:46:33.476 --> 00:46:38.496
Speaker 2: well. And I've been practicing that
almost daily for more than a year now. And then

648
00:46:38.596 --> 00:46:42.816
Speaker 2: I, as you well know, I learned other
skills. I go... I start learning about these

649
00:46:42.856 --> 00:46:46.116
Speaker 2: things, like, well, that's probably
true, so let's go find out. Sure enough, it is.

650
00:46:46.216 --> 00:46:51.436
Speaker 2: Cool. So I go learn mindsight, the
ability to see without eyes. I can do that. The

651
00:46:51.476 --> 00:46:54.516
Speaker 2: viewers will have to take my word for
it. I don't mind demoing it if you want me to,

652
00:46:54.596 --> 00:46:59.316
Speaker 2: but, um, that's not really the point.
You can do this stuff. And I began to take

653
00:46:59.376 --> 00:47:04.276
Speaker 2: very seriously its intention. It's
all just intention and energy and consciousness.

654
00:47:04.916 --> 00:47:08.236
Speaker 2: Yes, there are rules, and there's a
lot of us on this rock, and of course, there are

655
00:47:08.296 --> 00:47:12.836
Speaker 2: structures and patterns and friction.
There are sort of metaphysical rules, but all

656
00:47:12.876 --> 00:47:18.076
Speaker 2: of them are soft rules. Nothing is
fundamental. It's all just like, um, has inertia

657
00:47:18.136 --> 00:47:23.236
Speaker 2: to it. But ultimately, if you will
hard enough, like, you can change the rules. Um,

658
00:47:24.156 --> 00:47:27.716
Speaker 2: otherwise, senses like mindsight
don't make sense. You can't see without
eyeballs.

659
00:47:27.796 --> 00:47:31.736
Speaker 2: It doesn't make sense. I can close my
eyes, put on a blindfold, and see like I have

660
00:47:31.776 --> 00:47:37.096
Speaker 2: eyes. And that, once you can do that,
your whole world changes. As I do these

661
00:47:37.136 --> 00:47:41.316
Speaker 2: things, it's like stairsteps. The
experiences that are coming back to me, it's
like

662
00:47:41.416 --> 00:47:45.636
Speaker 2: I have a doorbell and a mailbox now
and a front door, and I have a cell, a cell

663
00:47:45.676 --> 00:47:48.976
Speaker 2: phone for the first time into the
spiritual world, and they're like, "Hey, what's

664
00:47:49.136 --> 00:47:52.796
Speaker 2: up? [chuckles] Hey, you can talk now.
You can see things. You can touch things. You

665
00:47:52.816 --> 00:47:57.196
Speaker 2: can interact. What's up, man? You
wanna, you wanna talk?" And that starts to scare

666
00:47:57.236 --> 00:48:01.056
Speaker 2: the hell out of me as... I guess
that's really sort of the next leg of the
journey

667
00:48:01.116 --> 00:48:06.076
Speaker 2: is not only could I do things, and I
kind of understand some of how reality works.

668
00:48:07.016 --> 00:48:08.776
Speaker 2: Now it's reaching back to me.

669
00:48:09.216 --> 00:48:09.356
Speaker 1: Mm.

670
00:48:09.356 --> 00:48:14.476
Speaker 2: "Hey, [chuckles] what's up? Looks
like you kinda see what's going on now. You
wanna

671
00:48:14.516 --> 00:48:18.616
Speaker 2: talk?" And, um, that's more or less
the stage I'm in now.

672
00:48:20.816 --> 00:48:26.636
Speaker 1: I met you in this class last fall,
and, uh, during the class, you went

673
00:48:26.756 --> 00:48:32.496
Speaker 1: on this mindsight training, and you
were giving updates in the class feed about,

674
00:48:33.276 --> 00:48:39.088
Speaker 1: uh, the training and then afterwards.
Um, I just, I just like Love

675
00:48:39.968 --> 00:48:45.888
Speaker 1: hearing about your willingness and
your capacity to explore and,

676
00:48:45.948 --> 00:48:51.388
Speaker 1: like, the focus you bring into all of
these ways that you've learned to train your

677
00:48:51.448 --> 00:48:56.928
Speaker 1: mind, your consciousness, um, and
just your, yeah, your openness to, like, try it,

678
00:48:57.128 --> 00:48:59.968
Speaker 1: you know? Like, [chuckles] to-- You,
like, feel like, "Well, let's see if

679
00:49:00.028 --> 00:49:04.908
Speaker 1: telekinesis is real. I'm gonna invest
30 hours in trying," you know? [chuckles]

680
00:49:04.948 --> 00:49:09.328
Speaker 2: And how amazing that finally you got
that little piece of aluminum foil to move.

681
00:49:09.788 --> 00:49:14.528
Speaker 1: Yeah. [chuckles] And I've s- I, I, I
don't have a... I'm, I'm not gonna share a

682
00:49:14.568 --> 00:49:20.388
Speaker 1: video, but I've seen Steven do a, um,
demo of his mindsight, uh,

683
00:49:21.588 --> 00:49:26.468
Speaker 1: abilities, and pretty, pretty
incredible to see it firsthand. Like, I've heard
about

684
00:49:26.528 --> 00:49:30.308
Speaker 1: people having these skills, and
Steven's told me himself about that, but... Or

685
00:49:30.348 --> 00:49:35.568
Speaker 1: you've told me yourself about that.
But when I saw it firsthand, it did something to

686
00:49:35.628 --> 00:49:35.828
Speaker 1: me.

687
00:49:36.888 --> 00:49:37.708
Speaker 2: It's real, man.

688
00:49:37.908 --> 00:49:38.108
Speaker 1: Yeah.

689
00:49:38.108 --> 00:49:41.488
Speaker 2: Just imagine how it feels doing it.
You don't have to. Like, you can do it. Anyone

690
00:49:41.528 --> 00:49:46.048
Speaker 2: can do it. Like, that's... This story
is not really my story so much it is, it's a

691
00:49:46.208 --> 00:49:51.028
Speaker 2: template, you know? It's a blueprint
for one way to do all this yourself. Like, it's

692
00:49:51.068 --> 00:49:56.228
Speaker 2: not unique to me. Anyone can do it. I
just was obsessively curious, and I had to

693
00:49:56.268 --> 00:50:00.428
Speaker 2: make sense of my world, and it kept
not making sense. And [chuckles] I kept having

694
00:50:00.508 --> 00:50:05.508
Speaker 2: to figuring it out, and I was... More
things kept being true, and I didn't like it.

695
00:50:05.768 --> 00:50:05.769
Speaker 1: Yeah.

696
00:50:05.848 --> 00:50:10.148
Speaker 2: A lot of this, it sounds very happy,
this journey, but this was really an obsessive-

697
00:50:11.448 --> 00:50:11.449
Speaker 1: Mm.

698
00:50:11.528 --> 00:50:16.828
Speaker 2: I had the sort of meditation, yoga
practices to fall back on. Like, I'm

699
00:50:17.268 --> 00:50:22.028
Speaker 2: unconditionally okay, but sometimes
only barely. Like, my whole world doesn't make

700
00:50:22.088 --> 00:50:23.488
Speaker 2: sense anymore. Like, I don't-

701
00:50:23.628 --> 00:50:23.848
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm

702
00:50:23.848 --> 00:50:27.168
Speaker 2: ... know what to do with this. I
keep... [chuckles] I don't know, how do I walk

703
00:50:27.228 --> 00:50:32.468
Speaker 2: around after realizing stuff's all
made up, man? Like, this is... I mean, it's
real,

704
00:50:33.608 --> 00:50:38.428
Speaker 2: but this is just a projection. Like,
this is... I'm not this body. I'm not this

705
00:50:38.468 --> 00:50:43.368
Speaker 2: person. Just sort of a field of
consciousness. We all are. It's, we're kinda
making

706
00:50:43.428 --> 00:50:47.647
Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff up, stuff up as
we go. None of these things are fundamentally

707
00:50:47.707 --> 00:50:52.368
Speaker 2: real, but I know. I can just close my
eyes and, and know. [chuckles]

708
00:50:52.408 --> 00:50:52.409
Speaker 1: Mm.

709
00:50:52.408 --> 00:50:57.588
Speaker 2: "Okay. [chuckles] Yeah, that's still
a thing. Uh, cool. I can still..." I was able

710
00:50:57.608 --> 00:51:01.228
Speaker 2: to see out b- the back of my head for
a little while. I stopped training that one

711
00:51:01.288 --> 00:51:02.508
Speaker 2: because it's very disorienting.

712
00:51:02.548 --> 00:51:06.188
Speaker 1: I like when you were telling me,
telling our group about, um, zooming in on the
sun.

713
00:51:06.528 --> 00:51:07.168
Speaker 1: You wanna share that story?

714
00:51:07.208 --> 00:51:07.528
Speaker 2: Yeah.

715
00:51:07.828 --> 00:51:08.688
Speaker 1: [chuckles]

716
00:51:08.728 --> 00:51:13.768
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, so that one gets weirder,
but, uh, I'll leave that part out. But I was

717
00:51:13.808 --> 00:51:18.588
Speaker 2: just sitting there. Uh, I wanted to
see... Just having fun. Like, a lot of this is

718
00:51:18.628 --> 00:51:22.448
Speaker 2: play for me now because, yeah, it's
cool. Uh, I'm like, "I wonder what water looks

719
00:51:22.488 --> 00:51:27.208
Speaker 2: like," [chuckles] I... now if I just
close my eyes. Um, 'cause the cameras sort of

720
00:51:27.248 --> 00:51:31.748
Speaker 2: come out from where my eyes are. Um,
but I s-see through my eyelids as if they're

721
00:51:31.788 --> 00:51:37.548
Speaker 2: not there. And, um, I like, "Oh, I'll
just pour water on my face." And I was

722
00:51:37.608 --> 00:51:41.508
Speaker 2: laughing 'cause it was so cool.
Normally, water isn't in focus 'cause it's on
your

723
00:51:41.568 --> 00:51:44.728
Speaker 2: eyes. And I could see it. It's like
you're pouring water on the other side of a

724
00:51:44.768 --> 00:51:46.108
Speaker 2: piece of glass. That's what it looks
like.

725
00:51:46.128 --> 00:51:46.129
Speaker 1: Huh.

726
00:51:46.128 --> 00:51:47.688
Speaker 2: And I was laughing. I thought it was
hilarious.

727
00:51:48.088 --> 00:51:48.148
Speaker 1: Wow.

728
00:51:48.208 --> 00:51:51.228
Speaker 2: I'm like, "What else can I do?" So I
go to sit down and read a book, and I'm like,

729
00:51:51.268 --> 00:51:55.348
Speaker 2: "I'll read this book without my
eyeballs." Um, so I start doing it, and I'm
like,

730
00:51:55.708 --> 00:52:01.528
Speaker 2: the sun is in my eyes, my fake eyes.
[chuckles] Like, it's still bright by contrast.

731
00:52:01.568 --> 00:52:04.648
Speaker 2: Like, it's funny how much carries
over. Like, you're still using parts of your

732
00:52:04.708 --> 00:52:08.628
Speaker 2: brain's visual system, of course. I
don't know how it gets there. I don't know.

733
00:52:08.668 --> 00:52:13.788
Speaker 2: Don't ask me. It just does. And it's
too bright by contrast. It's really hard to

734
00:52:13.828 --> 00:52:17.248
Speaker 2: read the book. I'm like, "What is
this?" Like, coming in through the window on my

735
00:52:17.288 --> 00:52:23.048
Speaker 2: couch. And I'm like, "But you know
what? I can just look at the sun. [chuckles] Why

736
00:52:23.068 --> 00:52:27.248
Speaker 2: have I never thought of this?" So I
do. I, I stare at the sun, and I can start to

737
00:52:27.308 --> 00:52:27.548
Speaker 2: see sunspots.

738
00:52:27.608 --> 00:52:28.928
Speaker 1: With your eyes closed. You stare at
the sun with your eyes closed.

739
00:52:28.968 --> 00:52:29.848
Speaker 2: Eyes closed. Don't ever-

740
00:52:29.948 --> 00:52:30.268
Speaker 1: Yes.

741
00:52:30.368 --> 00:52:31.528
Speaker 2: Uh, don't do it with your eyes open.

742
00:52:31.548 --> 00:52:31.549
Speaker 1: [chuckles]

743
00:52:31.568 --> 00:52:33.268
Speaker 2: You'll fry your eyeballs. Um, like-

744
00:52:33.288 --> 00:52:36.168
Speaker 1: Don't stare at the sun unless you
have mindsight, guys. [chuckles]

745
00:52:36.248 --> 00:52:37.988
Speaker 2: Or, or those special glasses or
whatever, right?

746
00:52:38.008 --> 00:52:38.348
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, yeah.

747
00:52:39.308 --> 00:52:42.948
Speaker 2: But I'm like, "Holy crap, I'm looking
at the sun." Like, look, I can see the little

748
00:52:42.988 --> 00:52:44.008
Speaker 2: tiny sunspots on it.

749
00:52:44.048 --> 00:52:44.049
Speaker 1: Mm.

750
00:52:44.068 --> 00:52:48.528
Speaker 2: Like, this is so cool. And like, I
wonder if I can zoom in on the sun. So I do
this,

751
00:52:48.788 --> 00:52:53.588
Speaker 2: and as I'm doing it, I get, like,
this parallax, like, second image, like, kind of

752
00:52:53.628 --> 00:52:58.227
Speaker 2: like a lens flare over the first
image. I'm like, "Ah, what is this thing?" I
start

753
00:52:58.308 --> 00:53:02.288
Speaker 2: panning around, and I can see, like,
little black spots, and I can move to the edge,

754
00:53:02.328 --> 00:53:06.448
Speaker 2: and it looks like it's a ball with,
like, fire at the edge of it. And I'm like,

755
00:53:06.468 --> 00:53:12.228
Speaker 2: "Holy crap, am I, like, [chuckles]
staring at the sun, man? What's

756
00:53:12.288 --> 00:53:17.228
Speaker 2: going on?" And like, it's just
intention. Um, was I? I,

757
00:53:18.408 --> 00:53:22.528
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't... I couldn't
tell you, but it's, I have an openness to

758
00:53:22.588 --> 00:53:28.568
Speaker 2: exploring it. Um, it correlates, uh,
[chuckles] with the sun. I mean, how much crazy

759
00:53:28.608 --> 00:53:32.028
Speaker 2: is it to say you can't zoom in? It's
already not real photons. Well, it, it's

760
00:53:32.088 --> 00:53:34.388
Speaker 2: already not hitting your eyes and
turning into electrical-

761
00:53:34.568 --> 00:53:34.668
Speaker 1: Right

762
00:53:34.708 --> 00:53:38.448
Speaker 2: ... chemical signals. Why not? How is
it crazy to say you can't zoom in? Like,

763
00:53:38.528 --> 00:53:38.728
Speaker 2: that's-

764
00:53:38.768 --> 00:53:39.028
Speaker 1: Yeah.

765
00:53:39.048 --> 00:53:41.208
Speaker 2: [chuckles] We're already
categorically insane. You may as well explore.

766
00:53:41.248 --> 00:53:44.448
Speaker 1: The other crazy thing I thought when
you told me that story was that then you pulled

767
00:53:44.508 --> 00:53:47.088
Speaker 1: up the image of the sun 'cause you
had made a drawing.

768
00:53:47.808 --> 00:53:50.888
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did. I, I tried to draw where
the sunspots were, and it correlated-

769
00:53:50.968 --> 00:53:50.969
Speaker 1: Yeah

770
00:53:50.968 --> 00:53:54.908
Speaker 2: ... with the solar activity, uh, on
that day at that time from my location in the

771
00:53:54.968 --> 00:54:00.688
Speaker 2: world. Uh, I will say that since
then, um, I, I think I'm also

772
00:54:00.728 --> 00:54:06.528
Speaker 2: looking at artifacts in my cornea.
It's very con- This... There's no

773
00:54:06.588 --> 00:54:09.908
Speaker 2: instruction manual for this. Like,
[chuckles] the, the number of people that can do

774
00:54:09.948 --> 00:54:13.808
Speaker 2: real-time mindsight is still only in
the hundreds for the world, uh, maybe a little

775
00:54:13.868 --> 00:54:18.468
Speaker 2: above a thousand now. It's growing.
Uh, but we need people to explore this. Nobody

776
00:54:18.508 --> 00:54:22.808
Speaker 2: knows how it works or what it means.
Um, so was I? I don't know. Was I looking at my

777
00:54:22.908 --> 00:54:28.208
Speaker 2: own, like, parts of my eye? I can see
my own eyelashes. I learned that two days ago.

778
00:54:28.268 --> 00:54:30.848
Speaker 2: I'm like, "What are these, like,
bright lines coming out of everything when I
look

779
00:54:30.888 --> 00:54:34.068
Speaker 2: at them?" And it took me forever. I'd
never been able to figure it out, and I

780
00:54:34.448 --> 00:54:37.888
Speaker 2: touched my eyelashes, and then I saw
them move, and I just started laughing.

781
00:54:37.888 --> 00:54:38.088
Speaker 1: [chuckles]

782
00:54:38.088 --> 00:54:42.068
Speaker 2: Like, I'm staring at my own
eyelashes. Like, you don't normally get to do
that. So

783
00:54:42.588 --> 00:54:45.648
Speaker 2: was it something more mundane? How's
that mundane? I don't know.

784
00:54:46.756 --> 00:54:49.536
Speaker 1: What happens when you go to sleep?
Can you turn it off?

785
00:54:50.816 --> 00:54:54.176
Speaker 2: I can just turn it on by intention,
so I can, I can already see, or I'll tap the

786
00:54:54.216 --> 00:54:58.496
Speaker 2: side of my head to signal that I want
to turn it on. It's just a trained thing. Um,

787
00:54:58.636 --> 00:55:03.696
Speaker 2: and then when I wanna turn it off, I
just do like this. But yeah, sometimes it, it

788
00:55:03.756 --> 00:55:06.056
Speaker 2: will turn on with my eyes closed.

789
00:55:06.536 --> 00:55:06.656
Speaker 1: Yeah.

790
00:55:06.856 --> 00:55:11.736
Speaker 2: Most people train with an eye- with a
blindfold because they don't want the, the cue

791
00:55:11.796 --> 00:55:13.396
Speaker 2: to close their eyes and see through
their eyelids-

792
00:55:13.456 --> 00:55:13.457
Speaker 1: Hmm

793
00:55:13.456 --> 00:55:18.596
Speaker 2: ... 'cause that freaks them out. But
I'm lazy and adventurous, so [chuckles] this

794
00:55:18.655 --> 00:55:22.196
Speaker 2: is, this is how I choose to do it.
But yeah, sometimes it does turn on at night or

795
00:55:22.216 --> 00:55:22.456
Speaker 2: I'll wake up in the middle of the
night.

796
00:55:22.556 --> 00:55:25.656
Speaker 1: God, I feel like we're living in a
sci-fi novel right now. [laughs]

797
00:55:25.736 --> 00:55:29.216
Speaker 2: You telling me, buddy. We didn't even
get to the craziest parts. [chuckles]

798
00:55:29.296 --> 00:55:32.936
Speaker 1: Oh, man. Well, you've talked, shared
about, like, this relationship you've

799
00:55:32.996 --> 00:55:38.256
Speaker 1: cultivated with your double. You
wanna say something about that?

800
00:55:39.396 --> 00:55:42.596
Speaker 1: Or where, where do you feel like the
next, the next place you wanna go on your

801
00:55:42.676 --> 00:55:42.956
Speaker 1: story?

802
00:55:44.676 --> 00:55:48.276
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll go to the
next events, which are probably starting

803
00:55:48.356 --> 00:55:52.416
Speaker 2: November, December last year, uh,
maybe a little before that. When we're in the

804
00:55:52.476 --> 00:55:56.136
Speaker 2: techniques of Transcendence course,
um, Darren King, you and I are in that course,

805
00:55:56.596 --> 00:56:00.336
Speaker 2: things really start to pick up,
especially the telepathy, and it feels very

806
00:56:00.376 --> 00:56:05.036
Speaker 2: intrusive. Like, I am getting
thoughts and feelings that are not mine. They
are,

807
00:56:05.056 --> 00:56:09.196
Speaker 2: [chuckles] they are... They don't
make any sense. They're completely out of step,

808
00:56:09.636 --> 00:56:15.556
Speaker 2: and it's a person. Uh, and later I'll
discover it's more than one. You

809
00:56:15.576 --> 00:56:18.516
Speaker 2: know, just take me at my word. This
is what I experienced. I'm not telling anyone

810
00:56:18.516 --> 00:56:21.676
Speaker 2: what, what is true, but this is
what's happening to me, right? Uh, so it doesn't

811
00:56:21.736 --> 00:56:26.056
Speaker 2: stop. I can't rule it out. I can't
make it stop. Like, normally you can make your

812
00:56:26.096 --> 00:56:29.336
Speaker 2: thoughts stop. I know how to
meditate. Nothing stops it. Like, it's just...

813
00:56:29.336 --> 00:56:34.516
Speaker 2: [chuckles] And the more, uh, this
goes, it starts to pick up, especially as I
start

814
00:56:34.556 --> 00:56:39.696
Speaker 2: to do, uh, a lot of the stuff in that
course, uh, which is again, mostly personal

815
00:56:39.736 --> 00:56:43.356
Speaker 2: development, removing distortions,
trying to see the world as it is, letting go of

816
00:56:43.396 --> 00:56:47.936
Speaker 2: judgment. It doesn't seem like those
things should give you more extrasensory

817
00:56:47.976 --> 00:56:53.036
Speaker 2: perception, uh, but it does. Uh, that
is what gives you [chuckles] extrasensory

818
00:56:53.076 --> 00:56:58.096
Speaker 2: perception. Um, they're the same
thing somehow. They're tied together. And the

819
00:56:58.136 --> 00:57:01.596
Speaker 2: desire to know, right? You have to be
curious and want to know on some level, which

820
00:57:01.656 --> 00:57:07.196
Speaker 2: I did. So these things start reaching
into my life or people, right? Um, and I don't

821
00:57:07.236 --> 00:57:11.096
Speaker 2: know what to do with it. It's waking
state, or I'll wake up, uh, in the middle of

822
00:57:11.136 --> 00:57:15.396
Speaker 2: the night, um, in the middle of a
conversation, or I'm having a dream and it

823
00:57:15.456 --> 00:57:19.736
Speaker 2: starts-- I realize I'm, I become
lucid, and it's like a quiz. Somebody's grilling
me

824
00:57:19.756 --> 00:57:22.856
Speaker 2: with questions. "What does that mean
to you?" Like, they're training my discernment.

825
00:57:23.376 --> 00:57:26.936
Speaker 2: "Why did that scare you? What did you
think about that? How do you know?" And then I

826
00:57:26.976 --> 00:57:31.516
Speaker 2: go, "What the hell? Who are you?"
Like, I had been, like I was being puppeted,
like,

827
00:57:31.576 --> 00:57:36.416
Speaker 2: through a conversat- or just, like,
sort of, like, in a malleable state until I

828
00:57:36.456 --> 00:57:40.336
Speaker 2: became lucid, and then I start to
panic. And then it's like I can feel the
emotion,

829
00:57:40.396 --> 00:57:44.016
Speaker 2: like an eye roll, like, "Ah, he's
awake. All right. Ugh. Party's over. All right,

830
00:57:44.056 --> 00:57:47.576
Speaker 2: everyone go home." That happens. It
keeps happening. And I'm like, [chuckles] "Wait,

831
00:57:47.676 --> 00:57:52.136
Speaker 2: where, who are you? What's going on?"
And then it's in waking state, not just

832
00:57:52.196 --> 00:57:56.056
Speaker 2: meditative state. But traditionally,
it's like when my mind is wandering. I'm going

833
00:57:56.096 --> 00:58:00.796
Speaker 2: for a run. I'm doing chores. Sitting
in the hammock. "Hey, what's up?"

834
00:58:01.016 --> 00:58:06.876
Speaker 2: [chuckles] So stuff like that. And
I'm like, or I feel a strong emotion, and

835
00:58:06.956 --> 00:58:12.716
Speaker 2: it's, like, completely out of tune
with what I am, and somebody, like, wants to

836
00:58:12.756 --> 00:58:16.736
Speaker 2: reach out to me, or they wanna talk
to me, and I keep pushing them away. Like,

837
00:58:17.016 --> 00:58:21.656
Speaker 2: naturally, as somebody who's
[chuckles] ... I'm worried I'm going crazy, um,
and I

838
00:58:21.736 --> 00:58:24.936
Speaker 2: can't figure out what's wrong with
me, and I'm treating it that way. And every time

839
00:58:25.016 --> 00:58:30.836
Speaker 2: I push them away, it makes, I feel
this intense, like, sadness, like a betrayal,

840
00:58:30.896 --> 00:58:36.056
Speaker 2: like, uh, they're hurt. Like, they
feel rejected. Uh, and but I don't feel that
way.

841
00:58:36.156 --> 00:58:39.496
Speaker 2: I'm like, "Ugh, go away. What is
this? These aren't real thoughts. You're not
real."

842
00:58:39.836 --> 00:58:45.796
Speaker 2: And then I just feel this pain, like,
"You jerk." Or, or just, like, "I feel sad

843
00:58:45.856 --> 00:58:49.996
Speaker 2: that you've pushed me away. Like, I'm
trying to talk to you." And you can only do

844
00:58:50.056 --> 00:58:54.056
Speaker 2: that so many times before you're
like, "Man, I feel... Like, if this is, there's
any

845
00:58:54.116 --> 00:58:57.116
Speaker 2: truth to this, like, I feel like the
asshole." [chuckles] Like, I've already

846
00:58:57.156 --> 00:59:02.056
Speaker 2: accepted that things are pretty much
idealistic. Like, I'm not in my body. I'm

847
00:59:02.116 --> 00:59:07.175
Speaker 2: something beyond it. Uh, I couldn't
tell you what that was at that time. Why not?

848
00:59:07.716 --> 00:59:11.096
Speaker 2: Why couldn't there be non-physical
things? And of course, this is when they would

849
00:59:11.136 --> 00:59:14.356
Speaker 2: start reaching out. Like, you've done
the groundwork. You have the abilities. You've

850
00:59:14.396 --> 00:59:19.456
Speaker 2: got enough world models that, like,
I'm not gonna just have a psychotic break right

851
00:59:19.516 --> 00:59:24.456
Speaker 2: away pushing me to the edge here. So
I start to take it seriously, and the more I

852
00:59:24.516 --> 00:59:28.056
Speaker 2: try to engage with it... But it's
like a pretense. Uh, I'm gonna pretend to have a

853
00:59:28.096 --> 00:59:32.536
Speaker 2: conversation in my head. I'll just
act like it's just me. And the more I do, and
the

854
00:59:32.576 --> 00:59:38.576
Speaker 2: more I entertain it, the more real it
becomes. Um, and that's pretty

855
00:59:38.616 --> 00:59:44.496
Speaker 2: crazy. And then the experiences at
night and meditation, they don't stop, uh, as
you

856
00:59:44.536 --> 00:59:50.456
Speaker 2: well know. So these are, like, a
recurring cast of characters. And I, I wanna
know

857
00:59:50.536 --> 00:59:54.056
Speaker 2: at some point. I... A lot of this is
intuitive. Like, I just have feelings that

858
00:59:54.096 --> 00:59:57.736
Speaker 2: important things are happening or
what it means. Like, intuition is starting to go

859
00:59:57.796 --> 01:00:02.096
Speaker 2: off the charts because I'm leaning
into it, and I just have a feeling that I know

860
01:00:02.136 --> 01:00:03.556
Speaker 2: these people. I know them.

861
01:00:03.756 --> 01:00:03.816
Speaker 1: Mm.

862
01:00:03.916 --> 01:00:07.876
Speaker 2: I already have feelings about them,
but I can't remember them. It's very difficult

863
01:00:07.916 --> 01:00:11.096
Speaker 2: to describe how jarring that is.
Like, "Oh, yeah, I know who you are." Like, I
could

864
01:00:11.136 --> 01:00:14.276
Speaker 2: tell you a whole, exactly how I feel
about you and what our relationship is like,

865
01:00:15.256 --> 01:00:18.676
Speaker 2: but I don't have any memories. I
don't have, like, a lot of knowledge. I just
have a

866
01:00:18.756 --> 01:00:24.376
Speaker 2: felt sense of who they are, and it's
familiar. That's very jarring. Um, and then I

867
01:00:24.416 --> 01:00:28.996
Speaker 2: start to have liminal experiences, so
waking up or falling asleep, that are

868
01:00:29.056 --> 01:00:34.036
Speaker 2: extremely vivid. So not only do I see
symbols and stuff in the visual field, this is

869
01:00:34.076 --> 01:00:39.056
Speaker 2: not imaginary. I get those too, the
imaginary field also, the imagined visuals. But,

870
01:00:39.096 --> 01:00:39.176
Speaker 2: like-

871
01:00:39.276 --> 01:00:39.456
Speaker 1: Mm

872
01:00:39.636 --> 01:00:42.776
Speaker 2: ... close your eyes and, like, if, as
if, like, you could see, you know, stare at

873
01:00:42.816 --> 01:00:46.116
Speaker 2: something, you see an after image and
it's painted in the blackness. I see stuff

874
01:00:46.156 --> 01:00:50.736
Speaker 2: drawn like that. Sometimes the
visuals snap into perfect clarity. I don't know
how

875
01:00:50.776 --> 01:00:54.936
Speaker 2: to do that consciously, but it-- that
started happening too, [chuckles] and mostly

876
01:00:55.356 --> 01:01:01.256
Speaker 2: symbolic stuff. Um, I realized, you
know, we can communicate, but I'm in this weird

877
01:01:01.316 --> 01:01:03.856
Speaker 2: state where I don't know what the
hell's happening to me. I'm falling apart

878
01:01:03.896 --> 01:01:09.496
Speaker 2: constantly, but it's, it's not bad.
And then I start to have experiences at night

879
01:01:09.556 --> 01:01:14.816
Speaker 2: where it's very vivid. Uh, I think
the one experience that I mentioned to you is

880
01:01:14.856 --> 01:01:17.856
Speaker 2: like the one story I'd tell before we
move on to, you know, what's going on now,

881
01:01:19.916 --> 01:01:24.856
Speaker 2: is that I had a sense I would talk to
somebody at night. Um, I wanted to know,

882
01:01:26.036 --> 01:01:29.756
Speaker 2: did I have a soul family? And I, I--
at, at this point, like I'm pretty on board for

883
01:01:29.796 --> 01:01:33.236
Speaker 2: that's who this probably is. I think
maybe they're spirit guides. Like, I don't

884
01:01:33.296 --> 01:01:37.296
Speaker 2: know, man. Like, I'm just guessing,
right? [chuckles] Deceased loved ones. Who, who

885
01:01:37.336 --> 01:01:41.916
Speaker 2: knows? I don't know who they are.
It's difficult, it's messy, it's very
frustrating,

886
01:01:42.216 --> 01:01:45.296
Speaker 2: this form of communication, 'cause it
feels like your own thoughts. It feels like

887
01:01:45.356 --> 01:01:47.956
Speaker 2: writing dialogue in a book a lot of
the time.

888
01:01:48.376 --> 01:01:48.416
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

889
01:01:48.456 --> 01:01:51.016
Speaker 2: It's like I just know what the next
line is. Like it's not like...

890
01:01:52.656 --> 01:01:57.856
Speaker 2: It feels like you're talking to
yourself, but when it's really strong, this is
what

891
01:01:57.916 --> 01:02:02.816
Speaker 2: people would call telepathy,
basically, the thoughts just come, and it's a
person

892
01:02:02.876 --> 01:02:07.696
Speaker 2: talking to you. And so this one
night, I have an experience where I have a sense
I'm

893
01:02:07.696 --> 01:02:13.636
Speaker 2: gonna meet somebody. And so I, I wake
up around 2:00 a.m., and I'm aware of my

894
01:02:13.676 --> 01:02:19.416
Speaker 2: body, and I'm sitting in bed, uh, and
I'm awake. And,

895
01:02:20.216 --> 01:02:25.796
Speaker 2: but I can feel drawn into my imagined
visuals is a person and a scene. It's a white

896
01:02:25.836 --> 01:02:31.416
Speaker 2: plain. There's no... There's a floor,
but no ceiling and walls. And it's a girl, and

897
01:02:31.496 --> 01:02:35.256
Speaker 2: she's standing there, and she's
talking to me. You know, just a little small
talk

898
01:02:35.296 --> 01:02:41.256
Speaker 2: like, "Hey, what's up? Hey, good to
see you," this basic intro stuff. And I'm awake.

899
01:02:41.316 --> 01:02:45.056
Speaker 2: Like I'm not sleeping. Like I can
move my body, and when I move my body or put my

900
01:02:45.116 --> 01:02:50.276
Speaker 2: attention on my body, I start to wake
up. Um, and so it starts to dissolve, kinda

901
01:02:50.296 --> 01:02:55.236
Speaker 2: like a dream dissolves. And so I'm
putting my focus on this, but it's crystal
clear,

902
01:02:55.496 --> 01:03:00.776
Speaker 2: and it's stable, and it's like
somebody's drawing a scene and a person into
your own

903
01:03:00.816 --> 01:03:04.136
Speaker 2: imagination. Like it's happening. I'm
not making it happen. You can imagine the

904
01:03:04.196 --> 01:03:09.776
Speaker 2: scene on your own. Imagine that being
forced into your imagination, and it's static.

905
01:03:10.136 --> 01:03:13.936
Speaker 2: Like it's happening whether you want
it to or not. I feel like I can shut it down

906
01:03:13.996 --> 01:03:18.756
Speaker 2: and turn it off if I want to, but
it's like a shared thing. And so I'm just

907
01:03:18.856 --> 01:03:23.256
Speaker 2: standing... I don't have a body. I'm
just like f-floating in front of this person,

908
01:03:24.016 --> 01:03:28.716
Speaker 2: dumbfounded, and she's like talking
to me. And I'm not saying anything, just like

909
01:03:29.076 --> 01:03:34.116
Speaker 2: sort of knocking on the glass like,
"Hey. Hello. I'm trying to talk to you. Can you

910
01:03:34.176 --> 01:03:40.096
Speaker 2: answer me?" And then I just say,
"Holy shit, this is real." Like, "You, you are

911
01:03:40.156 --> 01:03:45.656
Speaker 2: actually real. Uh, I can see you
now." Like I'm in a... I guess you could call
this

912
01:03:45.756 --> 01:03:50.336
Speaker 2: like astral projection. I don't know.
I don't know the terms. Uh, but I was there.

913
01:03:50.396 --> 01:03:55.836
Speaker 2: It was more than imagination, but
less than a physical reality, right? It's like

914
01:03:56.836 --> 01:04:01.616
Speaker 2: I was being given an imagined space,
and I had my senses, but they were like

915
01:04:02.496 --> 01:04:08.136
Speaker 2: 50% volume, right? Um, and so I stop
paying attention to my body, and I'm focused on

916
01:04:08.176 --> 01:04:13.676
Speaker 2: this space. Now we're talking, and
she's laughing, and, uh, I start to panic

917
01:04:14.056 --> 01:04:17.776
Speaker 2: because [chuckles] this is very
scary. Uh, she's like, "Don't do that." And I
can

918
01:04:17.876 --> 01:04:22.116
Speaker 2: feel the whole place start to like
dissolve, like waking up from a nightmare. Um,

919
01:04:22.356 --> 01:04:25.476
Speaker 2: and she's like, "Don't... No, you
can't do that. Hey, you're fine. Don't, don't

920
01:04:25.516 --> 01:04:29.136
Speaker 2: freak out. Just, just go with it.
Nothing's hurting you. You're gonna be okay."

921
01:04:29.416 --> 01:04:29.476
Speaker 1: Hmm.

922
01:04:30.016 --> 01:04:35.356
Speaker 2: So I try to. Uh, I keep pausing
mid-conversation because I'm expecting it to not
be

923
01:04:35.416 --> 01:04:40.536
Speaker 2: real. And so I'm in that state for
about four hours, and, um, it's stable.

924
01:04:40.596 --> 01:04:46.136
Speaker 2: [chuckles] I can ask whatever I want.
I can do whatever I want, and we talk. And

925
01:04:46.196 --> 01:04:50.256
Speaker 2: this is basically like a sibling,
like a twin. You can imagine a twin that wasn't

926
01:04:50.316 --> 01:04:50.716
Speaker 2: born.

927
01:04:51.296 --> 01:04:51.376
Speaker 1: Hmm.

928
01:04:51.476 --> 01:04:56.896
Speaker 2: Uh, just chose not to, to be born.
But, "Hey, you can hear me now, so

929
01:04:57.476 --> 01:05:03.416
Speaker 2: I miss you. Hello. [chuckles] Hey."
Uh, and, um, yeah, I

930
01:05:03.476 --> 01:05:06.436
Speaker 2: mean, uh, we talk about a lot of
things. I have a lot of questions, as you might

931
01:05:06.476 --> 01:05:11.896
Speaker 2: imagine, but I'm dumbstruck. Um, and
then, of course, there's a second part of that

932
01:05:11.976 --> 01:05:16.616
Speaker 2: story if you, you want me to tell it,
but I think you get the gist. Like the... I

933
01:05:16.676 --> 01:05:22.376
Speaker 2: get info dumped as well as
conversation, just regular catching up. And
yeah, this, I

934
01:05:22.436 --> 01:05:27.256
Speaker 2: have a, like a soul family of sorts,
not just human. But like, you have a life

935
01:05:27.296 --> 01:05:30.116
Speaker 2: beyond your life as well, and I think
everyone does. Um-

936
01:05:30.176 --> 01:05:30.376
Speaker 1: Hmm

937
01:05:30.376 --> 01:05:33.276
Speaker 2: ... people, if you've lived more than
once, if you believe in reincarnation, you

938
01:05:33.316 --> 01:05:38.556
Speaker 2: might have people from other lives.
Like they're there, and they're not here, and

939
01:05:38.616 --> 01:05:41.736
Speaker 2: once they can talk to you, yeah, they
love you. They miss you. Of course, "Hey,

940
01:05:41.856 --> 01:05:46.636
Speaker 2: you've g- you've got a mailbox now.
I'm gonna send you messages." And that's what

941
01:05:46.676 --> 01:05:47.216
Speaker 2: was happening.

942
01:05:47.996 --> 01:05:49.876
Speaker 1: Hmm. Wow.

943
01:05:51.576 --> 01:05:56.816
Speaker 1: Sounds like a, just like a major
relief to kind of like meet this... You're kind
of

944
01:05:56.856 --> 01:06:02.476
Speaker 1: like getting all of these
communications coming through and, um,

945
01:06:04.136 --> 01:06:07.576
Speaker 1: wondering if they're real, wondering
if they're really your own thoughts, and then

946
01:06:07.636 --> 01:06:12.096
Speaker 1: finally having this experience where
you visually meet this person and feel as if

947
01:06:12.856 --> 01:06:17.016
Speaker 1: you're in their presence. You, you
are in their presence. Your experience was you

948
01:06:17.096 --> 01:06:17.856
Speaker 1: are in their presence.

949
01:06:18.976 --> 01:06:19.156
Speaker 2: Yeah.

950
01:06:19.576 --> 01:06:22.656
Speaker 1: But they're there all the time too,
right? [chuckles] Like the... It's just like-

951
01:06:22.736 --> 01:06:22.737
Speaker 2: Yeah

952
01:06:22.736 --> 01:06:28.556
Speaker 1: ... in that liminal state, you were
able to, uh, to meet them more

953
01:06:29.976 --> 01:06:30.316
Speaker 1: fully.

954
01:06:31.176 --> 01:06:35.376
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a real participant, and
it was more, like rich, a more vivid experience

955
01:06:35.416 --> 01:06:40.756
Speaker 2: than just feeling like my own
thoughts, which was great, uh, 'cause I, I, I
needed

956
01:06:40.816 --> 01:06:45.976
Speaker 2: that. I-- we are-- You-- A lot of
this is about belief, and you have to, like Wile

957
01:06:45.996 --> 01:06:49.076
Speaker 2: E. Coyote, you have to walk out on
the edge and just like, "I, I believe I can move

958
01:06:49.116 --> 01:06:52.176
Speaker 2: the tinfoil." And you have to really
sit with that for a long time.

959
01:06:52.196 --> 01:06:52.197
Speaker 1: Hmm.

960
01:06:52.216 --> 01:06:57.288
Speaker 2: Like, "No, I know I can. I know I
can." And then eventually One day it happens and

961
01:06:57.308 --> 01:07:01.528
Speaker 2: you're like, "Holy crap, I knew..."
We'll get to that in the poem at the end. Uh,

962
01:07:01.648 --> 01:07:02.268
Speaker 2: but that's, um-

963
01:07:03.228 --> 01:07:03.368
Speaker 1: Hmm

964
01:07:03.368 --> 01:07:08.148
Speaker 2: ... it's, uh, it's happened to me so
many times now with it. Every... But I still do

965
01:07:08.208 --> 01:07:13.528
Speaker 2: it. I still like, "I don't know.
Maybe I'm making it up. Maybe that didn't really

966
01:07:13.568 --> 01:07:17.148
Speaker 2: happen." Like, "I'm just gonna try to
hold this belief. I'm just gonna try to hold

967
01:07:17.188 --> 01:07:18.268
Speaker 2: it. It's gonna happen."

968
01:07:18.728 --> 01:07:18.729
Speaker 1: Hmm.

969
01:07:18.748 --> 01:07:24.188
Speaker 2: This is how it works, I know. And
then you go, it sounds easy, but

970
01:07:25.828 --> 01:07:30.148
Speaker 2: then eventually it happens and you're
like, "Holy crap. [chuckles] Okay. All right,

971
01:07:30.248 --> 01:07:34.328
Speaker 2: cool." And for those wondering, like
I've asked for real world validation, like

972
01:07:34.888 --> 01:07:38.988
Speaker 2: definitions to terms I've never heard
of before. I've, I will lose stuff around the

973
01:07:39.048 --> 01:07:43.148
Speaker 2: house and just randomly go, "Ugh."
It's like somebody's frustrated with me. Like,

974
01:07:43.788 --> 01:07:46.948
Speaker 2: it's in the bottom drawer near the
sink. I'm like, "That's not where I put that."

975
01:07:47.108 --> 01:07:50.448
Speaker 2: Then like I'll look everywhere else
around the house, like there's no way. I go and

976
01:07:50.508 --> 01:07:53.088
Speaker 2: I'm like, "Fine." I go look in the
bottom drawer near the sink and there it is, and

977
01:07:53.108 --> 01:07:57.508
Speaker 2: there's just this sense of like
laughter. And it's like, "Man."

978
01:07:57.568 --> 01:08:02.008
Speaker 1: That would be helpful. I need, I need
that. [chuckles] Having two young kids, like-

979
01:08:02.008 --> 01:08:02.708
Speaker 1: [chuckles]

980
01:08:02.788 --> 01:08:03.208
Speaker 2: Yeah, well-

981
01:08:03.208 --> 01:08:05.628
Speaker 1: ... your mind is just like a, a
chaos.

982
01:08:07.088 --> 01:08:10.188
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, but it's not, you know,
they're not always there. It's like-

983
01:08:10.248 --> 01:08:10.388
Speaker 1: Yeah

984
01:08:10.988 --> 01:08:13.168
Speaker 2: ... I don't know. It's just like,
just checking in on you.

985
01:08:13.388 --> 01:08:13.408
Speaker 1: Hmm.

986
01:08:13.408 --> 01:08:16.348
Speaker 2: "Hey, what's up?" Uh, or they could
always be there, right? There's not always

987
01:08:16.348 --> 01:08:16.349
Speaker 2: presence.

988
01:08:16.368 --> 01:08:19.648
Speaker 1: How does that shift your, like sense
of self and autonomy-

989
01:08:19.648 --> 01:08:20.748
Speaker 2: [chuckles]

990
01:08:20.788 --> 01:08:24.208
Speaker 1: ... knowing that you're like always
being watched essentially, right? [chuckles]

991
01:08:24.248 --> 01:08:26.848
Speaker 2: Well, surprise, everyone's always
being watched.

992
01:08:26.888 --> 01:08:27.868
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but we don't-

993
01:08:27.868 --> 01:08:29.328
Speaker 2: Everyone's got a loved one or a guide
or someone.

994
01:08:29.368 --> 01:08:31.888
Speaker 1: We don't realize that we are, right?
But now you know.

995
01:08:33.488 --> 01:08:38.848
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like time is a thing here
beyond like the 3D material linear space time
world.

996
01:08:38.888 --> 01:08:43.688
Speaker 2: Like there's no scarcity of time, and
if somebody cares about you, their

997
01:08:44.548 --> 01:08:47.888
Speaker 2: grandma, whatever, they're probably
watching all the time. I got a crazy medium

998
01:08:48.008 --> 01:08:51.228
Speaker 2: story where after the mindsight
training, some of the ladies there were mediums.
So

999
01:08:51.328 --> 01:08:54.888
Speaker 2: I go... They're training, right?
They, there's five old ladies, they bring me
into a

1000
01:08:54.948 --> 01:08:59.048
Speaker 2: mediumship session. Like I've never
done this before, not like this. Like cool, I'll

1001
01:08:59.108 --> 01:09:02.808
Speaker 2: just sit there. So they stare at me
for 20 minutes over Zoom, and then they take

1002
01:09:02.848 --> 01:09:06.888
Speaker 2: turns reading impressions of whoever
showed up, like deceased loved ones. And it's

1003
01:09:06.948 --> 01:09:11.668
Speaker 2: interesting, and I have this
experience of, well, that was cool and all. It's
kinda

1004
01:09:11.708 --> 01:09:16.448
Speaker 2: hard to place some of this stuff. Um,
like, eh, that was neat, I guess. No dead

1005
01:09:16.508 --> 01:09:21.108
Speaker 2: ringers or anything. And um, but I
just have this sense of like sadness that I

1006
01:09:21.148 --> 01:09:25.728
Speaker 2: didn't expect, and I realized I kinda
just wanted them to tell me that they loved

1007
01:09:25.788 --> 01:09:30.308
Speaker 2: me. And instead I got like a lot of,
you know, "This is about my life. Here's some

1008
01:09:31.148 --> 01:09:32.948
Speaker 2: advice," a little bit of lecturing.

1009
01:09:32.948 --> 01:09:33.648
Speaker 1: [chuckles]

1010
01:09:33.768 --> 01:09:38.368
Speaker 2: Like 'cause like, okay cool, but like
that's all I really wanted was that you think

1011
01:09:38.448 --> 01:09:42.028
Speaker 2: about me and you care about me. I
didn't know, I didn't know to ask for that.

1012
01:09:42.088 --> 01:09:43.388
Speaker 2: There's nobody else's fault.

1013
01:09:43.928 --> 01:09:44.128
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1014
01:09:44.448 --> 01:09:49.988
Speaker 2: And um, so after that happened, you
know, I didn't expect to feel those emotions. I

1015
01:09:50.028 --> 01:09:53.428
Speaker 2: didn't really share that with
anybody. It was just a private internal thing.
Like,

1016
01:09:53.568 --> 01:09:57.368
Speaker 2: "Oh man, I feel a little hurt
actually." [chuckles] I didn't think I would.
Uh, and

1017
01:09:57.788 --> 01:10:01.748
Speaker 2: so the next morning I get, uh, a text
message from somebody who was in that

1018
01:10:01.808 --> 01:10:05.588
Speaker 2: mindsight training, and she messages
me and she says, "I was thinking about you when

1019
01:10:05.628 --> 01:10:09.768
Speaker 2: I was making my coffee this morning,"
'cause we shared like the same like living

1020
01:10:09.848 --> 01:10:15.488
Speaker 2: space, uh, while we were training.
And she's like, "I also had this

1021
01:10:15.608 --> 01:10:20.408
Speaker 2: really weird feeling that I needed to
reach out to you. Something about grandmas and

1022
01:10:20.448 --> 01:10:24.568
Speaker 2: like loving you. Uh, does that mean
anything to you? I'm sorry if it doesn't because

1023
01:10:24.688 --> 01:10:28.508
Speaker 2: I, I know that's totally out of the
blue. We haven't talked in a long time. I just

1024
01:10:28.548 --> 01:10:31.828
Speaker 2: felt like I had to tell you that for
some reason." And I'm like, "Oh my God,

1025
01:10:32.768 --> 01:10:38.088
Speaker 2: grandmas." So I mean, if you buy the
story, like, I mean, that happened. Some

1026
01:10:38.148 --> 01:10:41.988
Speaker 2: grandma is like, "Oh no, this boy
needs to know I love him." Like hold up. But go

1027
01:10:42.048 --> 01:10:43.148
Speaker 2: grab the nearest person you can
possibly-

1028
01:10:43.188 --> 01:10:46.448
Speaker 1: I forgot to say, I had so much to
say, I forgot to say the most important thing.

1029
01:10:46.448 --> 01:10:46.908
Speaker 1: [chuckles]

1030
01:10:46.968 --> 01:10:49.588
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's more like, "Oh,
you don't think that we-"

1031
01:10:49.808 --> 01:10:49.968
Speaker 1: Oh.

1032
01:10:50.168 --> 01:10:51.148
Speaker 2: "You didn't know that?" Like-

1033
01:10:51.288 --> 01:10:51.348
Speaker 1: Gotcha

1034
01:10:51.368 --> 01:10:54.628
Speaker 2: ... "Well, you need to know that."
No, this is much more like, "You, I'm gonna make

1035
01:10:54.708 --> 01:10:55.948
Speaker 2: sure you know we love you."

1036
01:10:56.028 --> 01:10:56.268
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1037
01:10:56.368 --> 01:11:01.548
Speaker 2: And so I just, that's, if that's not
such a grandma thing, but I get validation like

1038
01:11:01.628 --> 01:11:05.328
Speaker 2: this all the time. I don't get a lot
of it because

1039
01:11:07.008 --> 01:11:08.328
Speaker 2: I think it's counterproductive.

1040
01:11:08.548 --> 01:11:08.728
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1041
01:11:09.068 --> 01:11:13.427
Speaker 2: And that's supposed, you're supposed
to start trusting, trusting your non-primary

1042
01:11:13.468 --> 01:11:14.648
Speaker 2: physical senses more.

1043
01:11:16.607 --> 01:11:22.128
Speaker 2: But yeah, so I mean, all this stuff
is what happens to me, um, at this stage, and I

1044
01:11:22.168 --> 01:11:23.988
Speaker 2: guess, you know, we can round it out
with that-

1045
01:11:24.428 --> 01:11:24.448
Speaker 1: Yeah

1046
01:11:24.448 --> 01:11:25.908
Speaker 2: ... where I'm at now, if that's okay
with you.

1047
01:11:26.468 --> 01:11:30.608
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, this feels like a good
place to begin landing. I'm curious-

1048
01:11:30.628 --> 01:11:30.648
Speaker 2: Yeah

1049
01:11:30.648 --> 01:11:34.208
Speaker 1: ... to hear like, you know, having
shared all of that and gone through this process

1050
01:11:34.268 --> 01:11:37.028
Speaker 1: of reflecting, what meaning do you
make of your journey?

1051
01:11:38.468 --> 01:11:43.748
Speaker 2: Well, I never expected this. What a
plot twist of a life. I like to think of my life

1052
01:11:43.808 --> 01:11:49.448
Speaker 2: as a story now at this point. It, uh,
a co-created story, [chuckles] but less

1053
01:11:49.508 --> 01:11:55.428
Speaker 2: attached to events. Um, I think
that's a better way of looking at it. I

1054
01:11:55.488 --> 01:12:00.368
Speaker 2: realize the power of intention and
that we can kind of have almost any experience
we

1055
01:12:00.408 --> 01:12:05.468
Speaker 2: want within reason. You know, we're
in a place where there are rules and order and

1056
01:12:05.508 --> 01:12:09.248
Speaker 2: physics, and that's, that's good.
That's like a different thing. Like you're not

1057
01:12:09.288 --> 01:12:13.028
Speaker 2: gonna be able to snap your fingers
and make a giant block of gold appear. Well, I

1058
01:12:13.048 --> 01:12:17.088
Speaker 2: mean, probably not. I, I don't... And
that's good because it would defeat the

1059
01:12:17.128 --> 01:12:22.728
Speaker 2: purpose of a lot of the re- reason
we're here. And so I think a stage of
development

1060
01:12:22.768 --> 01:12:27.968
Speaker 2: I'm in now is I have everything I
want in life for the most part. I'm happy, I'm

1061
01:12:27.988 --> 01:12:31.968
Speaker 2: healthy, I'm stable, and that's
really when this started to pick up. And now I
have

1062
01:12:33.148 --> 01:12:38.388
Speaker 2: a sense of why am I here? Both me
authoring why I'm here, but also

1063
01:12:40.128 --> 01:12:44.848
Speaker 2: being receptive to more of being used
like a tool, like in a sort of pre-agreement.

1064
01:12:44.968 --> 01:12:49.308
Speaker 2: You could call that a calling or a
purpose, but a scribe. They actually kind of
line

1065
01:12:49.388 --> 01:12:55.068
Speaker 2: up, and I feel like intuitively, much
more directly, like literally just being told

1066
01:12:55.128 --> 01:13:00.108
Speaker 2: sometimes, "Yeah, why are you here?"
Um, but it's more like a menu, like it's an

1067
01:13:00.188 --> 01:13:04.776
Speaker 2: offer. Here's what you're good at,
here's what the world needs. Do this. Like, uh,

1068
01:13:04.816 --> 01:13:09.736
Speaker 2: just, uh, but mostly it's an
intuitive sense. So I'm moving into a stage
where I

1069
01:13:09.796 --> 01:13:14.836
Speaker 2: have a feeling like I know what I
want out of life, and now I'm more interested in

1070
01:13:14.896 --> 01:13:19.096
Speaker 2: helping what you do with the good
thing. Like, all of this is awesome. A surprise,

1071
01:13:19.176 --> 01:13:23.536
Speaker 2: like, uh, [chuckles] for those who
are unaware, like, you're not gonna die when

1072
01:13:23.576 --> 01:13:26.776
Speaker 2: you're dead. You get to live forever,
and reality is way, way better than you

1073
01:13:26.816 --> 01:13:29.036
Speaker 2: thought it was, and you can have
almost anything you want.

1074
01:13:29.136 --> 01:13:29.256
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

1075
01:13:29.316 --> 01:13:34.936
Speaker 2: So, uh, there's the gift. In fact,
uh, [chuckles] one of these journals is

1076
01:13:35.576 --> 01:13:39.856
Speaker 2: me waking up in the middle of the
night, somebody very surprised, uh, like a

1077
01:13:39.916 --> 01:13:45.196
Speaker 2: surprise party and just like, "What
is this thing?" Ha- telling me happy birthday. I

1078
01:13:45.256 --> 01:13:48.516
Speaker 2: think, uh, like, "What are you
talking about?" [chuckles] It's like, "Well,
you're

1079
01:13:48.576 --> 01:13:52.096
Speaker 2: about to get a gift," and then it's
like, "What's the gift?" "It's the gift of

1080
01:13:52.176 --> 01:13:57.016
Speaker 2: everything. You're about to learn
that it's all awesome, and you can have almost

1081
01:13:57.076 --> 01:14:02.096
Speaker 2: anything you want, and you're not
gonna die." Like, "Oh, cool." Uh, but now I know

1082
01:14:02.156 --> 01:14:06.816
Speaker 2: it, right? I, I know it on a deeper
level. Uh, so life is more playful and more,

1083
01:14:07.016 --> 01:14:12.836
Speaker 2: "What can I do with this?" Right?
"How can I have fun? How can I live

1084
01:14:12.896 --> 01:14:17.756
Speaker 2: into this? How can I do something
meaningful?" And that's sort of the stage I'm
in.

1085
01:14:18.316 --> 01:14:24.116
Speaker 2: I feel like I... in, I'm in the
rarefied position of, from my perspective, kinda

1086
01:14:24.176 --> 01:14:29.036
Speaker 2: understanding the 80/20 of how
reality and consciousness works and who I am and

1087
01:14:30.196 --> 01:14:35.316
Speaker 2: f- how it all works, the big
questions. I wrote yesterday in a journal that I
feel

1088
01:14:35.356 --> 01:14:40.456
Speaker 2: like I have satisfactory and
first-hand validated

1089
01:14:41.256 --> 01:14:42.156
Speaker 2: answers to

1090
01:14:43.736 --> 01:14:47.956
Speaker 2: all the big questions I've ever come
up with. That is a very strange position to be

1091
01:14:48.036 --> 01:14:52.836
Speaker 2: in as a human being. [chuckles] Um,
well, now that those boxes are checked, I guess

1092
01:14:52.896 --> 01:14:56.896
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna have fun and try to
help other people have fun too. Uh, so that's

1093
01:14:56.916 --> 01:14:57.416
Speaker 2: where I'm at.

1094
01:14:58.296 --> 01:14:58.456
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1095
01:15:00.016 --> 01:15:00.616
Speaker 2: I recommend it.

1096
01:15:01.136 --> 01:15:05.636
Speaker 1: I really like that you said reality
is way better than you think it is. [chuckles]

1097
01:15:05.776 --> 01:15:06.036
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1098
01:15:06.176 --> 01:15:06.416
Speaker 1: I love that.

1099
01:15:06.436 --> 01:15:07.216
Speaker 2: And it keeps happening.

1100
01:15:07.816 --> 01:15:11.875
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and so much of your story
just testifies to that. So I'm-

1101
01:15:12.436 --> 01:15:12.696
Speaker 2: Hmm. Yeah

1102
01:15:12.936 --> 01:15:14.896
Speaker 1: ... you know, thanking you for
bringing that up and-

1103
01:15:15.636 --> 01:15:16.876
Speaker 2: Sure. [clears throat]

1104
01:15:16.956 --> 01:15:20.416
Speaker 1: If anyone listening is moving through
their own rupture, what would you like them to

1105
01:15:20.476 --> 01:15:20.676
Speaker 1: hear?

1106
01:15:22.656 --> 01:15:28.516
Speaker 2: I would say that your thoughts,
emotions, feelings, beliefs are,

1107
01:15:29.776 --> 01:15:35.596
Speaker 2: um, not just-- They are not you, so
chill out. Uh, they're part of an

1108
01:15:35.656 --> 01:15:40.496
Speaker 2: experience, but they are also what's
controlling what you get to a large degree,

1109
01:15:41.276 --> 01:15:46.376
Speaker 2: eventually, right? It's y-
imagination. All of these things that I treated
as

1110
01:15:46.436 --> 01:15:51.896
Speaker 2: secondary or ephemeral or just like
icing on a reality cake, turns out they are what

1111
01:15:51.936 --> 01:15:56.556
Speaker 2: determines the cake, like eventually.
Think of it as like steering something very

1112
01:15:56.616 --> 01:16:01.156
Speaker 2: slowly, but sometimes not so slowly.
And the more you can lean into that, the more

1113
01:16:01.196 --> 01:16:05.616
Speaker 2: you'll get what you want. Like,
you're always creating your own reality to a
degree,

1114
01:16:05.736 --> 01:16:11.236
Speaker 2: or largely influencing here, uh,
eventually creating, um, whole cloth.

1115
01:16:11.716 --> 01:16:17.296
Speaker 2: And that, um, the good news is you
were, you have inherited a

1116
01:16:18.216 --> 01:16:24.136
Speaker 2: unconditionally loving and completely
connected universe that wants nothing but to

1117
01:16:24.196 --> 01:16:28.576
Speaker 2: give you everything you want and
cares about you and fundamentally, like no

1118
01:16:28.616 --> 01:16:33.816
Speaker 2: conditions. Uh, it didn't have to be
this good. Uh, it doesn't always feel that way

1119
01:16:33.996 --> 01:16:39.156
Speaker 2: from our current seat, um, but we're
playing on hard mode right now. And, um,

1120
01:16:39.836 --> 01:16:44.576
Speaker 2: don't worry so much because the big
things are already sorted out. You already

1121
01:16:44.616 --> 01:16:48.576
Speaker 2: inherited, like, everything you could
ever want, and even if you screw up here

1122
01:16:49.236 --> 01:16:54.256
Speaker 2: completely, it doesn't really matter.
You're already good [chuckles] forever. So

1123
01:16:54.676 --> 01:17:00.296
Speaker 2: don't worry too much. And if that
doesn't feel true yet, the advice I keep getting

1124
01:17:00.436 --> 01:17:04.996
Speaker 2: over and over again every time I hit
a moment where it's like, "Holy crap, like,

1125
01:17:05.096 --> 01:17:09.356
Speaker 2: what is reality? How do I go to work
tomorrow? I can see through my eyelids, and

1126
01:17:09.856 --> 01:17:12.536
Speaker 2: [chuckles] I'm talking to people in
my head that appear to be real. Like, I don't

1127
01:17:12.576 --> 01:17:16.656
Speaker 2: know. How do I keep going? Like, how
do I integrate this? Like, how do I make sense

1128
01:17:16.716 --> 01:17:21.735
Speaker 2: of anything? What is even real
anymore?" The answer is just keep going.

1129
01:17:22.076 --> 01:17:22.216
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

1130
01:17:22.276 --> 01:17:24.316
Speaker 2: If you can do that, if you can

1131
01:17:26.076 --> 01:17:28.516
Speaker 2: somehow get yourself to a positive
orientation

1132
01:17:30.256 --> 01:17:31.136
Speaker 2: and just keep going,

1133
01:17:32.796 --> 01:17:38.076
Speaker 2: you'll make it. Like you'll, you'll
find your own experiences. You have your own

1134
01:17:38.116 --> 01:17:42.356
Speaker 2: revelations. You'll have your own...
It won't be the same as mine. We're all

1135
01:17:42.416 --> 01:17:47.836
Speaker 2: different. And so you get your own
personalized experience, um, and it'll keep

1136
01:17:47.876 --> 01:17:52.196
Speaker 2: happening. The magic will be in the
world as long as you expect it to be there and

1137
01:17:52.236 --> 01:17:53.316
Speaker 2: as long as you keep playing.

1138
01:17:53.876 --> 01:17:53.936
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1139
01:17:53.936 --> 01:17:56.536
Speaker 2: So hopefully that's helpful. Just
don't stop playing.

1140
01:17:57.256 --> 01:18:00.256
Speaker 1: Hmm. Don't stop playing. I dig it.

1141
01:18:01.796 --> 01:18:05.616
Speaker 1: Do you have any, um, anywhere people
can find out about your work or your writing,

1142
01:18:05.996 --> 01:18:06.616
Speaker 1: your thinking?

1143
01:18:08.396 --> 01:18:13.876
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have-- I write fiction, but
it's not super relevant to this. Um, but I, I've

1144
01:18:13.916 --> 01:18:18.196
Speaker 2: been trying to write about my
experiences or distilling, I think, important
lessons

1145
01:18:18.296 --> 01:18:23.576
Speaker 2: on a blog. That's, that was the
differentcompass.ink. I don't get anything out
of

1146
01:18:23.616 --> 01:18:29.056
Speaker 2: this. It's just read it. Uh, I don't
need anything. I'm in the, a wonderful position

1147
01:18:29.116 --> 01:18:31.116
Speaker 2: of I've got what I need. I just
wanna-

1148
01:18:31.156 --> 01:18:31.216
Speaker 1: Good

1149
01:18:31.456 --> 01:18:36.156
Speaker 2: ... have good times with good people.
Um, so by all means, if you found this useful,

1150
01:18:37.076 --> 01:18:40.896
Speaker 2: please go read that. Uh, but you
kinda already have everything you need. This is
the

1151
01:18:40.936 --> 01:18:44.136
Speaker 2: advice I give to everyone else. But
if I can help you make sense of it or, uh,

1152
01:18:44.256 --> 01:18:49.196
Speaker 2: Joshua can, by all means, borrow and
cheat and steal. I've cheated every opportunity

1153
01:18:49.276 --> 01:18:49.616
Speaker 2: I get.

1154
01:18:49.616 --> 01:18:50.136
Speaker 1: [chuckles]

1155
01:18:50.176 --> 01:18:50.816
Speaker 2: Why wait in line?

1156
01:18:51.976 --> 01:18:52.156
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1157
01:18:53.816 --> 01:18:58.456
Speaker 1: All right. Thank you, Steven. Um, as
we're closing, I'm just like

1158
01:19:00.336 --> 01:19:06.316
Speaker 1: feeling gratitude and, you know, awe
in hearing your story and reinvigorated on my

1159
01:19:06.376 --> 01:19:11.808
Speaker 1: own path and practice. And, um, so
many of the things you've brought into

1160
01:19:12.788 --> 01:19:18.048
Speaker 1: the circle that we've initiated
together and, you know, in our conversations
have

1161
01:19:18.108 --> 01:19:22.968
Speaker 1: motivated me to, you know, try new
things and go in new paths. And every time I

1162
01:19:23.008 --> 01:19:27.428
Speaker 1: close my eyes now, I'm like, I tell
myself, "I can see without my eyes." And I'm

1163
01:19:27.468 --> 01:19:27.608
Speaker 1: just-

1164
01:19:27.768 --> 01:19:28.248
Speaker 2: Mm.

1165
01:19:28.248 --> 01:19:32.108
Speaker 1: ... you know, even as the-- at the
end of my meditation, I've been trying to affirm

1166
01:19:32.168 --> 01:19:33.968
Speaker 1: that, remember to affirm that. And,
uh-

1167
01:19:34.248 --> 01:19:34.668
Speaker 2: Heck yeah.

1168
01:19:34.908 --> 01:19:39.968
Speaker 1: So I'm excited to know you and be
inspired on the path, the path that you're,
you're

1169
01:19:40.028 --> 01:19:43.908
Speaker 1: treading your, for your own life.
Yeah, in a couple words, like, how are you

1170
01:19:43.968 --> 01:19:44.728
Speaker 1: checking out today?

1171
01:19:45.808 --> 01:19:50.608
Speaker 2: I'm just grateful to have fellow
people to be on the journey with, you know? And,

1172
01:19:50.688 --> 01:19:50.868
Speaker 2: um,

1173
01:19:52.448 --> 01:19:57.808
Speaker 2: I just hope that-- I don't want
anyone to ever... Inspired is, is exactly what I

1174
01:19:57.848 --> 01:20:01.268
Speaker 2: hope for, because I kinda just want
other people to go get their own version of

1175
01:20:01.308 --> 01:20:05.088
Speaker 2: this. It's waiting for them. You
don't have to live in mundane reality anymore.
If

1176
01:20:05.148 --> 01:20:09.528
Speaker 2: you just ask, just say, "Hey, I want
my version of this," and then take whatever

1177
01:20:09.588 --> 01:20:14.548
Speaker 2: breadcrumb comes your way, and
something will, and just keep following those.
The

1178
01:20:14.668 --> 01:20:19.568
Speaker 2: universe, the universe will play with
you however you wanna frame it. Um, it'll give

1179
01:20:19.608 --> 01:20:24.168
Speaker 2: you the next step. Keep following
those steps, and you can have your own version
of

1180
01:20:24.208 --> 01:20:28.608
Speaker 2: this, and I, I hope that everyone
does that, you included. 'Cause I, I wanna live
in

1181
01:20:28.628 --> 01:20:31.108
Speaker 2: that world with other people. Who
wants to do it alone? That's no fun.

1182
01:20:31.768 --> 01:20:36.068
Speaker 1: Let's all become yogis with yogic
superpowers, flying around-

1183
01:20:36.088 --> 01:20:36.668
Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever your version is, yeah

1184
01:20:36.668 --> 01:20:41.608
Speaker 1: ... communicating with our mind, and
build a world like that. [laughs]

1185
01:20:41.628 --> 01:20:41.629
Speaker 2: Sure.

1186
01:20:41.648 --> 01:20:41.848
Speaker 1: That's a fun-

1187
01:20:41.888 --> 01:20:42.228
Speaker 2: Whatever you want

1188
01:20:42.248 --> 01:20:47.288
Speaker 1: ... that's a fun world. I, I wanna
live it. Cool. Thank you, Steven. Um, we always

1189
01:20:47.328 --> 01:20:50.948
Speaker 1: like to close with a little offering
from the guest, so if you have something,

1190
01:20:51.288 --> 01:20:52.388
Speaker 1: please share it with us.

1191
01:20:53.568 --> 01:20:58.748
Speaker 2: Cool. Um, I did select something. I
wrote a poem. I don't usually like poetry

1192
01:20:58.788 --> 01:21:02.268
Speaker 2: because it makes me do too much work,
and that stresses me out. Like, did I

1193
01:21:02.328 --> 01:21:06.188
Speaker 2: understand it correctly? I don't
know. So I don't actually enjoy it because it's,

1194
01:21:06.988 --> 01:21:11.588
Speaker 2: I'm too psyched out about it. But I
decided to write one, um, and this happened

1195
01:21:11.668 --> 01:21:17.148
Speaker 2: after one of, one of many things that
I, I never thought could actually be true

1196
01:21:17.588 --> 01:21:22.148
Speaker 2: ended up being true. So that's the
context to know. Uh, it's, the poem itself is

1197
01:21:22.208 --> 01:21:23.268
Speaker 2: called To Know.

1198
01:21:25.648 --> 01:21:31.348
Speaker 2: To know that you really are the
person you hoped you'd be, that the things you
told

1199
01:21:31.388 --> 01:21:36.768
Speaker 2: yourself you didn't need were
fundamental truths from a changed heart and not
the

1200
01:21:36.808 --> 01:21:42.088
Speaker 2: lamentations of a spurned one. When
this life offers you opportunity to prove,

1201
01:21:42.828 --> 01:21:48.808
Speaker 2: you will feel that solitary triumph.
No one knows if the tension held so long

1202
01:21:49.348 --> 01:21:55.328
Speaker 2: even you forgot it was there. It was
true. Oh,

1203
01:21:55.388 --> 01:22:01.348
Speaker 2: it was true all along. This is what
it feels like to know they

1204
01:22:01.388 --> 01:22:02.908
Speaker 2: were not just words.

1205
01:22:02.908 --> 01:22:08.728
Speaker 1: [outro music] Thank you

1206
01:22:08.768 --> 01:22:13.068
Speaker 1: again for joining us in this circle
of ruptures and roots. These stories remind us

1207
01:22:13.108 --> 01:22:17.928
Speaker 1: that rupture isn't the end. It's
where roots begin to reach once more for life.
If

1208
01:22:17.988 --> 01:22:22.268
Speaker 1: this conversation touched something
in you, then I invite you to sit with it, let it

1209
01:22:22.308 --> 01:22:27.508
Speaker 1: ripple, and maybe share it with
someone who might also feel the resonance. This
work

1210
01:22:27.568 --> 01:22:31.708
Speaker 1: is offered in the spirit of the gift.
If you feel called to honor the energy and

1211
01:22:31.748 --> 01:22:35.968
Speaker 1: commitment that goes into creating
this podcast, then I invite you to become a paid

1212
01:22:36.008 --> 01:22:37.968
Speaker 1: subscriber on Substack at

1213
01:22:38.028 --> 01:22:43.908
Speaker 1: gospelsofrupture.substack.com. Until
next time, may you

1214
01:22:43.968 --> 01:22:47.868
Speaker 1: find nourishment in the roots beneath
you and courage in the ruptures that open your

1215
01:22:47.928 --> 01:22:48.268
Speaker 1: path.

1216
01:22:48.328 --> 01:22:54.928
Speaker 1: [outro music]