Uncorrected Scribe v2 machine transcript. Neutral speaker labels are specific to this recording. Review flags: 2.
TXT · SRT · VTT · Untouched JSON · Review flags
Source: interviews/beyond-logic-steven-schrembeck-on-mind-sight-soul-families-and-the-edges-of-consciousness.mp3
SHA-256: 0ba1bc75a9c6f2f7c6da7724d9180cd254dbaddc71288c003dc972ef1b5708a0
00:00:00.060 Speaker 1 [gentle music] Welcome to the circle. This is
00:00:06.020 Speaker 1 Ruptures and Roots, and I'm your fellow traveler, Joshua Swenson. This is a space
00:00:11.320 Speaker 1 for deep listening and the sharing of stories of rupture and transformation in
00:00:15.500 Speaker 1 unprecedented times, and a life that roots into the cracks. Sitting in the circle
00:00:20.820 Speaker 1 with me today is Steven Schrembeck. I first met Steven through a class I joined last
00:00:26.020 Speaker 1 fall called Techniques of Transcendence. I was immediately struck by his curiosity
00:00:31.100 Speaker 1 and tenacity in exploring the edges of consciousness. I've loved hearing Steven
00:00:36.000 Speaker 1 reflect on his encounters with anomalous phenomena and the ways he's learned to
00:00:40.080 Speaker 1 listen to and work with psychic and intuitive capacities. Steven is a lifelong
00:00:45.900 Speaker 1 tinkerer with interests ranging from sensory substitution to societal incentives. By
00:00:51.380 Speaker 1 trade, he's a software engineer, and by avocation, a writer and explorer of meaning.
00:00:56.680 Speaker 1 He's the author of horror short stories and fantasy novels, and he also writes
00:01:00.980 Speaker 1 nonfiction on intuition, consciousness, extrasensory abilities, and how we make
00:01:06.200 Speaker 1 sense of the unknown at differentcompass.ink. In this conversation, we sit together
00:01:11.360 Speaker 1 in curiosity, exploring rupture, perception, and what happens when our understanding
00:01:15.880 Speaker 1 of reality begins to stretch beyond its familiar bounds. Welcome to the circle
00:01:21.260 Speaker 1 today, Steven. I'm honored to be holding space for your story. Is there anything
00:01:25.200 Speaker 1 more you'd like to say or share by way of introduction?
00:01:28.680 Speaker 2 You said it way better than I would say it myself, so I better not.
00:01:33.180 Speaker 1 All right. Well, before we open the space for your story, um, I always like to check
00:01:38.020 Speaker 1 in, if you'd like to share, uh, what's alive for you today, what's on your heart and
00:01:42.360 Speaker 1 mind, how you're arriving in the space.
00:01:45.640 Speaker 2 Uh, I arrived poring through some old journals about what's happened to me over the
00:01:50.160 Speaker 2 past few years, and I knew that it was time to record with you 'cause I heard a
00:01:54.420 Speaker 2 really high-pitched sound and felt that sort of pressure in my head and went, "Oh,
00:01:57.960 Speaker 2 cool. Guess it's time to go record." Sure enough, I look up like, "All right. Who
00:02:03.400 Speaker 2 needs an alarm?" Uh, so that's how I'm arriving. [chuckles]
00:02:07.580 Speaker 1 [chuckles]
00:02:07.960 Speaker 2 How are you?
00:02:09.080 Speaker 1 I've similarly been noticing high-pitched noises. It's not quite the same, like,
00:02:15.200 Speaker 1 intensity as tinnitus, right? But it's like it comes and goes at, like, unique
00:02:19.780 Speaker 1 moments. I think we were-- I was, like, reading a text you sent once about it coming
00:02:25.460 Speaker 1 up for you at one point, and as I was reading the text, that ringing came in my own
00:02:29.780 Speaker 1 ears. Um-
00:02:31.180 Speaker 2 So sorry.
00:02:32.840 Speaker 1 No, it's interesting. It's like a-- feels to me like a signal of synchronicity. So
00:02:37.260 Speaker 1 thank you for sharing, and thank you for arriving today.
00:02:38.520 Speaker 2 Let's see how many listeners get it at the-
00:02:40.280 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:02:40.380 Speaker 2 ... at that exact same time right now. [chuckles]
00:02:43.720 Speaker 1 I'm arriving today with, um, a feeling of accomplishment. Um, I've been working on a
00:02:49.380 Speaker 1 trailer for the television series I've been working on called The Lost Years, which
00:02:54.500 Speaker 1 is about the forgotten years of Jesus' journey, uh, as he travels through
00:02:59.840 Speaker 1 mys-mystery school initiations. And, um, so I've been kind of deep diving on AI
00:03:04.700 Speaker 1 filmmaking and, um, put together a pretty badass trailer I'm really excited about
00:03:10.600 Speaker 1 with some cool music and images. And, um, yeah, feeling really accomplished and
00:03:16.480 Speaker 1 also just really excited about this conversation and, yeah, hearing more about your
00:03:20.440 Speaker 1 story. So that's what I'm arriving with today. I'd like to invite us both to take a
00:03:26.320 Speaker 1 breath before we begin.
00:03:30.580 Speaker 1 And whenever you're ready, what was life like before the rupture or wherever it
00:03:35.640 Speaker 1 feels right to begin?
00:03:39.160 Speaker 2 I think I would like to preface this with how hilarious and
00:03:44.800 Speaker 2 ironic it is that I would be describing, uh, my life before and after a rupture,
00:03:51.800 Speaker 2 as we'll get into any sort of supernatural occurrence or [chuckles] mystical
00:03:55.980 Speaker 2 experience. You, you'd have to know me that, you know, like every child, I had
00:04:01.520 Speaker 2 magical thinking, but at a pretty young age, I don't know, nine, 10, start to figure
00:04:07.380 Speaker 2 out, "Oh, that's not cool." And from that, more likely, you know, others will judge
00:04:13.220 Speaker 2 me or, "Oh, this isn't real. I, I gotta shut that down." And I think I did that very
00:04:17.200 Speaker 2 successfully. But I never stopped liking stories and fantastical worlds. Uh, that's
00:04:22.880 Speaker 2 not unique among humans, but, you know, I would-- In high school, I started writing
00:04:28.260 Speaker 2 creative fiction. Uh, I loved humor, absurdist humor, fantasy, uh, and then
00:04:33.280 Speaker 2 eventually I would get into horror. That was an escape, and so was reading, and, uh,
00:04:38.920 Speaker 2 I never stopped, like, loving fictional magical worlds, but I think I needed a world
00:04:43.720 Speaker 2 that made sense to me. I became logical. Uh, I liked
00:04:49.620 Speaker 2 things that made sense. A lot of this would end up being coping mechanisms for, uh,
00:04:54.900 Speaker 2 ADHD, uh, various other acronyms that are useful blueprints, and I wouldn't
00:05:00.860 Speaker 2 find that out until much later in life. But nonetheless, it affected my social life,
00:05:06.020 Speaker 2 and it helped me to see the world in terms of systems and functions and things that
00:05:11.100 Speaker 2 happen because of reasons, uh, in ways that can be predicted and modeled. You know,
00:05:16.040 Speaker 2 12-year-old Steven wasn't using those words, but, you know, at the same time, you
00:05:19.560 Speaker 2 know, we're clever. We find ways around our problems. Why am I hyperactive? Why do I
00:05:24.240 Speaker 2 just blurt things out without saying things? Why can't I sit here? Why am I so slow
00:05:28.660 Speaker 2 on these tests? We find ways around all those things, whether we realize it or not.
00:05:33.440 Speaker 2 And so I had evolved into a person that was fascinated with the natural world,
00:05:39.600 Speaker 2 was also fascinated with very separate [chuckles] fictional worlds, some of which I
00:05:44.000 Speaker 2 was creating. I loved science. Uh, I went to, uh, college to become
00:05:49.960 Speaker 2 a software developer. I never thought I would get into that college. I never thought
00:05:53.560 Speaker 2 I would be a software developer. Uh, I didn't think I was smart enough. Uh, most of
00:05:57.960 Speaker 2 my life I didn't think I was smart enough, which was counter to what I was told.
00:06:01.856 Speaker 2 [chuckles] Which was very difficult for me. Um, what I hadn't realized until much
00:06:06.476 Speaker 2 later on is that I had some basic learning disabilities and that I was actually very
00:06:10.216 Speaker 2 slow at thinking. Had my thought process measured, and I'm well below average in
00:06:15.456 Speaker 2 terms of how slow I think. But I've got a pretty good verbal intelligence, so I can
00:06:20.296 Speaker 2 just kinda make stuff up until eventually my brain catches up. But it explained why
00:06:25.416 Speaker 2 I felt like I understood things, but I struggled so much. And in a school setting
00:06:31.156 Speaker 2 that was very rigorous and had timed things, um, I was just slow, and I, I
00:06:37.016 Speaker 2 mistook being slow for being dumb. Uh, but that wouldn't hit me until later. All
00:06:42.176 Speaker 2 that to say is that, you know, I'm a person who is very orderly and logical,
00:06:48.296 Speaker 2 and, um, I've just straight up made fun of anything I didn't understand that I felt
00:06:53.256 Speaker 2 was well outside the realm of materialism, even when I didn't use those words. Uh,
00:06:59.336 Speaker 2 reason. I felt that everything could be explained. If you could put the whole
00:07:03.556 Speaker 2 physical universe, uh, you can know the state of everything, and you had just enough
00:07:08.376 Speaker 2 understanding of how it all worked, you could predict everything forever, right? I,
00:07:13.536 Speaker 2 I had that belief, uh, as recent as six years ago, maybe five years ago.
00:07:19.016 Speaker 2 [chuckles] So all of the important context, that's who I was. Later in my adult
00:07:24.556 Speaker 2 life, I would, uh, come to call myself an atheist, uh, and it felt right. I never
00:07:29.076 Speaker 2 liked religion. Uh, I still don't. I don't dislike people who are religious, but it
00:07:33.696 Speaker 2 does not feel right for me. Uh, I didn't like dogma. I never liked being told what
00:07:38.396 Speaker 2 to do or what to think or what I couldn't ask. Um, that bothered me a lot. I always
00:07:44.036 Speaker 2 liked questions. Um, and I've always had an accountability to truth, which, you
00:07:48.376 Speaker 2 know, led me to questioning religion and a lo- a lot of things. I became vegan.
00:07:53.876 Speaker 2 I've-- We parent our children in pretty unusual ways.
00:07:57.896 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:07:58.176 Speaker 2 Uh, we've-- you know, we don't go to a traditional schooling system. [chuckles] We
00:08:01.716 Speaker 2 do a lot of things that are not normal and weren't easy to make those choices, but
00:08:06.076 Speaker 2 it felt right. Uh, so that's what life was like before a rupture for me. I had
00:08:11.196 Speaker 2 systems, I had rules, I thought in structure. I had a spreadsheet that I reviewed
00:08:16.176 Speaker 2 every morning of here's who I wanna be, here's how I work. I had a whole life that
00:08:22.036 Speaker 2 was architected to keep me together and keep everything working. I got pretty good
00:08:26.196 Speaker 2 at it. [chuckles] I got pretty good at it, but it was still so much work, um, just
00:08:31.816 Speaker 2 to be happy. Um, I mean, I can pause there, uh, but that, you know, that leads me
00:08:36.596 Speaker 2 into, I guess, um, the beginning of change.
00:08:41.336 Speaker 1 I resonate a lot with what you've shared, and, um, I really relate to that escape
00:08:46.736 Speaker 1 into fantasy. I remember I didn't feel in my skin or
00:08:52.396 Speaker 1 comfortable with my relatives, and anytime we would go to visit them, I would just,
00:08:58.116 Speaker 1 like, read "Animorphs" and fantasy novels and things like that, and I would always
00:09:02.956 Speaker 1 get in trouble for just, like, wanting to stay in the room and read, you know? But
00:09:07.816 Speaker 1 it felt safer for me. A- and I guess I also-- you know, the way you framed it was,
00:09:13.216 Speaker 1 like, this imaginal realm that children are more in touch with. Imaginary
00:09:18.956 Speaker 1 friends, you know, we think of them as not real. For children inhabiting that space,
00:09:24.396 Speaker 1 it is real. Like, their imagination is so much more active. They're just, like,
00:09:28.396 Speaker 1 constantly role-playing and playing and pretending. But we think of it as
00:09:32.696 Speaker 1 pretending, right? But they are really in that world. And at some point, that begins
00:09:37.136 Speaker 1 to be shut down by all the voices around us and, you know, society telling us, "You
00:09:42.476 Speaker 1 need to grow up. You need to be serious."
00:09:45.856 Speaker 1 Kids are just, like, in this realm that are more in touch with this, um, maybe,
00:09:51.756 Speaker 1 like, the ground of reality, like consciousness, um.
00:09:55.976 Speaker 2 Sure. Um, well, I think we'll come back to the, the kid thing, uh, later
00:10:02.016 Speaker 2 'cause, um, I think this is a common belief that especially in, like, spiritual
00:10:07.836 Speaker 2 circles or a lot of these, like, extrasensory perception circles, there's a
00:10:13.716 Speaker 2 belief that, like, children are, are better. There's this weird diminishment of
00:10:18.116 Speaker 2 adults and older people, which I'm happy to say is not true. Uh, it's not
00:10:24.076 Speaker 2 fundamental, right? It's-
00:10:25.416 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:10:25.476 Speaker 2 ... correlated, uh, but not causative. I didn't get rid of statistics and logical
00:10:30.036 Speaker 2 thinking. I've just, uh, incorporated it now into a bigger worldview. Um, so-
00:10:35.856 Speaker 1 We could take a, we could take a minute on that if you wanna go deeper on that. You
00:10:38.576 Speaker 1 know, that's a really good point.
00:10:40.476 Speaker 2 Um, sure. Uh, one of the ways I know this is true
00:10:46.536 Speaker 2 is that children just take the world as it is. They're extremely malleable, but
00:10:50.116 Speaker 2 they're also sponges, right?
00:10:51.356 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:10:51.576 Speaker 2 We, we need our world models to function in the world.
00:10:54.396 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:10:54.656 Speaker 2 The ch- the world could not be run by children. It would fall apart.
00:10:57.536 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:10:57.596 Speaker 2 It wouldn't work. We need adult selves, and I think the real goal is to have the
00:11:01.216 Speaker 2 capacity to shift in and out of being childlike when it's appropriate, and that
00:11:06.796 Speaker 2 should be the real goal, is to adult and wear pants and do taxes when you have to,
00:11:10.796 Speaker 2 but then also be able to dance and not care and have fun and see the world as it is.
00:11:16.676 Speaker 2 And, um, this can be shown. Um, there are a number of psi abilities, so
00:11:22.696 Speaker 2 extrasensory abilities that we'll get into, that people thought only kids could do.
00:11:27.196 Speaker 2 And in fact, the only instructors, which there weren't very many, would only teach
00:11:30.896 Speaker 2 children because they just straight up thought adults couldn't do it. And I'm happy
00:11:34.676 Speaker 2 to report that is absolutely not the case.
00:11:36.576 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:11:36.836 Speaker 2 And there is no real difference between the performance in, between children and
00:11:40.216 Speaker 2 adults, especially when you don't tell the adults that kids are better at it and
00:11:45.616 Speaker 2 that adults are bad at it.
00:11:47.516 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:11:47.536 Speaker 2 If you leave all that out and just tell them they can do it, they get basically the
00:11:51.116 Speaker 2 same performance, which I thought is very inspiring. It has nothing to do with being
00:11:55.416 Speaker 2 a child or not. It's just that, yeah, they don't have as much baggage. [chuckles]
00:11:59.736 Speaker 2 That's for sure.
00:12:01.276 Speaker 1 There's a phrase that came to mind. Uh, I think this is from Ken Wilber, the post
00:12:05.356 Speaker 1 trans fallacy. It's a jargony phrase, but it's essentially saying that like
00:12:11.424 Speaker 1 children are in this flow state, you know, everything really expression-
00:12:16.264 Speaker 1 expressional, [chuckles] very expressive, there we go.
00:12:20.664 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.
00:12:21.224 Speaker 1 But they are not enlightened. You know, you have to go through that journey of
00:12:26.084 Speaker 1 losing touch with that state, going through this process of, um, self-identification
00:12:31.744 Speaker 1 in order to transcend the ego, right?
00:12:35.604 Speaker 2 Um, I mean, they also hit people who take their toys and pee themselves.
00:12:38.624 Speaker 1 [chuckles] I know. Yeah. I have two young ones also.
00:12:40.604 Speaker 2 There's, there's downsides to being a child, you know? [both laughing]
00:12:44.844 Speaker 1 I think just in this context of, like, being in touch with the imaginal that, you
00:12:49.384 Speaker 1 know, I was witnessing in your story, you know, and that I resonate with. In our
00:12:54.144 Speaker 1 culture, there's this, like, idea that that is not as valid as, like, the logical
00:12:59.524 Speaker 1 way of being. That's kind of like, oh, you forget that and, like, you grow up and
00:13:05.304 Speaker 1 you become a serious, focused, rational adult. [chuckles] In a lot of circles,
00:13:09.764 Speaker 1 that's kind of like what, what it means to grow up and mature in our society.
00:13:14.184 Speaker 2 Well, I think the maturation extends from there. I do think it's mostly
00:13:20.184 Speaker 2 true. Gotta learn how to do that.
00:13:21.924 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:13:22.044 Speaker 2 And that parallels this arc perfectly.
00:13:26.064 Speaker 2 Okay, so towards rupture, there isn't a single break. I've broken a bunch of times
00:13:32.024 Speaker 2 over and over again, and there's a few that stand out, and we'll get to those. A lot
00:13:37.244 Speaker 2 of things happened to me that I can't explain. They, they happen with increasing
00:13:41.424 Speaker 2 frequency and magnitude, and we'll get into some of those. But it all started, uh,
00:13:47.024 Speaker 2 I'd say two thousand twenty-two, maybe '21, is when I started getting very
00:13:52.764 Speaker 2 serious about meditation and being happy, right? I wrote down here that I was
00:13:59.644 Speaker 2 very reactive, hurried. I felt like I was n- never doing enough. I was very
00:14:04.864 Speaker 2 controlling, um, and I, I control... The way I maintained stability was
00:14:10.744 Speaker 2 through systems and control, and it was very--
00:14:16.923 Speaker 2 It was oppressive, right? It was a system that had to be maintained of self,
00:14:20.384 Speaker 2 emotional control, relations, everything, right? And if I fail, like it falls apart.
00:14:26.904 Speaker 2 I- [chuckles] So it's difficult. I got very good at understanding the mind and
00:14:30.684 Speaker 2 motivation, emotions in humans, but you can only understand something so much by
00:14:35.944 Speaker 2 taking it apart into pieces and building tools and systems. At some point, you reach
00:14:40.224 Speaker 2 a limit, was I was effective, but I was unhappy, or it was
00:14:46.124 Speaker 2 difficult to maintain it, and I hated it, and I wanted a way to be happy. Like,
00:14:52.264 Speaker 2 just by default, I wanted to not have to try so hard all the time, and that led me
00:14:57.364 Speaker 2 to, as with many people, uh, to schools of Eastern thought, um, and I started to get
00:15:02.764 Speaker 2 very serious about meditation. And that is when I started setting a daily habit of
00:15:07.984 Speaker 2 twice a day for thirty minutes, which would eventually turn into, uh, an hour, and
00:15:12.264 Speaker 2 then now it's closer to two hours, uh, a day of meditation. But I've kept it up
00:15:17.304 Speaker 2 since then. I don't-- In terms of recorded meditations, I'm near six hundred, but
00:15:21.444 Speaker 2 many of them never got written down. And that is when things started to change. Uh,
00:15:27.104 Speaker 2 so I started doing those meditations, and I had tried with, like many people, to do
00:15:32.664 Speaker 2 it as a prescriptive thing. "Oh, it's de-stress. Let's, uh..." [chuckles] Uh, this
00:15:37.564 Speaker 2 is like a thing I have to do, like exercise. And now it was beginning to be about
00:15:42.604 Speaker 2 self-exploration. And I think what really kicked it off was the book, "The
00:15:47.324 Speaker 2 Untethered Soul," just, just an incredible piece of work. If you could only read one
00:15:51.824 Speaker 2 book, oh, that's a good one. I realized, oh, wait a minute, you can use meditation
00:15:57.044 Speaker 2 for more than just feeling better? Like, and it's more than just meditation, right?
00:16:00.624 Speaker 2 You carry these practices throughout your life. It's a way of seeing the world. And,
00:16:04.784 Speaker 2 um, so I start doing it like, "Oh, you can do inner exploration." [chuckles] What
00:16:09.364 Speaker 2 does that even mean? And so I- I'm like, "I want that experience." I thought you
00:16:12.864 Speaker 2 could only get this with drugs. Um, and so I start doing it, and I start to have
00:16:18.604 Speaker 2 fascinating experiences, which are mostly like, you know, a sense of floating or
00:16:23.604 Speaker 2 zooming or conscious-- shifts in consciousness. Nothing extraordinary, something
00:16:27.944 Speaker 2 that anyone could get with thirty minutes of serious meditation. But now I've
00:16:31.764 Speaker 2 brought a sense of intention to this, and that has changed everything. And I want
00:16:36.044 Speaker 2 more of it. [chuckles] Right. Like, I don't just, like, feel de-stressed. Like, I
00:16:41.204 Speaker 2 feel like a different person. Like, my second half of my day now is like, I'm less
00:16:46.184 Speaker 2 reactive. Like, I feel more free. I don't feel like I have to do things in the same
00:16:51.064 Speaker 2 way. I feel like stuff is just coming to me easier, and this becomes pretty good
00:16:56.904 Speaker 2 motivation [chuckles] to keep exploring. I'll pause there if you have any questions,
00:17:00.944 Speaker 2 but that's really what kicks it off.
00:17:03.344 Speaker 1 Hmm. I relate to that. A shift in meditation, um, I've been meditating for
00:17:09.244 Speaker 1 about twenty years now, but for the first, like, thirteen, fourteen years of that
00:17:14.564 Speaker 1 time, you know, it was really like this focus training. When you're breathing, if
00:17:19.344 Speaker 1 you had noticed a thought, come back to your breath. Like, don't, don't think, just
00:17:23.064 Speaker 1 be present, like pushing away emotion, pushing away thought. And for me, there was a
00:17:27.424 Speaker 1 big shift when I began to kind of become more present with my body and my emotions
00:17:33.484 Speaker 1 and grief especially. And then meditation became, I'm just gonna be present and sit
00:17:39.124 Speaker 1 with what's here and feel deeply into my body, and there's just, like, so much that
00:17:43.844 Speaker 1 opens up. Um, but yeah, really interesting to hear the difference. I've never heard
00:17:48.904 Speaker 1 of "Untethered Soul," so I'm, I'm always, like, interested in new book
00:17:51.464 Speaker 1 recommendations too.
00:17:53.444 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's very practical.
00:17:54.864 Speaker 1 Hmm.
00:17:56.124 Speaker 2 Um, so I, I begin to come at meditation from I wanna understand how I
00:18:02.144 Speaker 2 work, how consciousness works. Uh, this begins to become a clear mystery of like, I
00:18:06.184 Speaker 2 learn about the hard problem of consciousness. It can't be explained easily by
00:18:09.644 Speaker 2 material things. There's just a few sticking points that just don't make sense. And
00:18:14.564 Speaker 2 the question of- Why the hell is anything here? Why does this exist at all? That
00:18:19.088 Speaker 2 never left me since childhood. I will say I held onto a few big questions, and I
00:18:22.748 Speaker 2 never, I never bought [chuckles] any popular lines for these things like, "I don't
00:18:28.128 Speaker 2 know, man. Time is weird." [chuckles] Existence is weird. Why am I here? Why am I
00:18:34.188 Speaker 2 feeling anything? This doesn't make any sense. And so I start to try to answer
00:18:38.528 Speaker 2 those. Where are thoughts coming from? Uh, like, why-- how does my body work? How
00:18:43.488 Speaker 2 does it move? Where do my emotions come from? What is my sense of self? Why does it
00:18:48.507 Speaker 2 seem to stop at my skin, or does it? And you begin to poke all these things, and you
00:18:53.228 Speaker 2 go, "Holy crap, it does not."
00:18:55.568 Speaker 1 Hmm.
00:18:55.748 Speaker 2 And I can see where all these things are coming from, and they're coming from not
00:18:59.788 Speaker 2 me. Well, what is this? And you can peel these pieces back, and I begin to have
00:19:04.628 Speaker 2 insights that, oh, there is something here. And so I dive even deeper, and I start
00:19:10.168 Speaker 2 taking it apart, right? I'm trying to... This is still very left-brained, which is
00:19:13.808 Speaker 2 hilarious, but this is what draws me in. And then I begin to realize I read the Yoga
00:19:18.448 Speaker 2 Sutras. I'm like, "I'll just go to the source of this." Like, here we go. [chuckles]
00:19:21.488 Speaker 2 Let's see what these guys had to say. And it's great. And I begin to start to change
00:19:26.668 Speaker 2 the way I set goals. Now, all of this does eventually turn into, uh, ghosts, aliens,
00:19:31.808 Speaker 2 and psychic powers, but-
00:19:33.308 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm
00:19:33.328 Speaker 2 ... it starts with self-improvement. And actually, that never stops. Um, this whole
00:19:38.708 Speaker 2 path is self-improvement. I've-- I think I've mentioned to you that the most uncanny
00:19:44.468 Speaker 2 thing is that spiritual improvement and self-improvement, the ability to do things
00:19:48.908 Speaker 2 that do not make sense or comport with standard material physics, is directly in
00:19:54.908 Speaker 2 line with and really the same thing as personal development. Working through your
00:19:58.868 Speaker 2 problems is [chuckles] what gives you psychic powers. It's, it's the most hilarious
00:20:04.848 Speaker 2 thing in the world. Um, I could never have predicted that.
00:20:09.108 Speaker 1 Hmm.
00:20:09.488 Speaker 2 Um, but we'll touch on that. I start becoming interested in unconditional states.
00:20:14.348 Speaker 2 How can I be unconditionally okay or happy? Or what is unconditional love? Can I
00:20:19.148 Speaker 2 extend that to other people? And I start thinking more in terms of non-duality of,
00:20:23.828 Speaker 2 of self. Um, I am not just me, um, but I'm also sort of connected to other things. I
00:20:29.428 Speaker 2 can feel it in meditation. I feel these things start to happen. I start to think
00:20:33.428 Speaker 2 about non-polarities, like good versus evil is not really a real thing. Like, I
00:20:38.168 Speaker 2 start to see the world differently. Like, they are real, but they're like, uh,
00:20:43.888 Speaker 2 forces or they're just like characters on a stage. Like, it's, it feels like not
00:20:49.208 Speaker 2 ultimately true. Or it's... Th- I see everything in shades of gray now. It's more
00:20:52.708 Speaker 2 nuanced. Um, and then weird things start to happen to me. [chuckles]
00:20:58.708 Speaker 2 And you wouldn't think that, oh, you know, meditating a lot and going,
00:21:04.788 Speaker 2 uh, trying to learn these things, being nice to people, realizing that you are
00:21:08.788 Speaker 2 connected to, to other people. Uh, at this time, like, I still consider myself an
00:21:13.248 Speaker 2 atheist, a materialist. Like, nothing has really changed, but everything has started
00:21:17.208 Speaker 2 to change, right? Um, at the same time, and I'm living these things, not just in
00:21:22.388 Speaker 2 meditation, but I'm-- 'cause it's making my life better. I'm happier. It's easy to
00:21:26.288 Speaker 2 be happy. And I start to change how I set goals, more from like how do I get a thing
00:21:31.468 Speaker 2 in five years to like it being more important how I feel right now and like how am I
00:21:37.268 Speaker 2 carrying myself? What am I living my values right now? And more present-focused. It
00:21:42.448 Speaker 2 seems so token to say those sort of things. It's very token advice. But I really
00:21:48.168 Speaker 2 leaned into it because it [chuckles] obsessively because it made my life better. And
00:21:52.408 Speaker 2 the more I did, the more things I did not expect to start happening to me started
00:21:58.148 Speaker 2 happening. So I guess that would be the moment of rupture if I had to, to pick it.
00:22:03.248 Speaker 1 Hmm.
00:22:03.828 Speaker 2 Long lead-up. But I felt it was important 'cause it wasn't a magical thing. Didn't
00:22:08.888 Speaker 2 light a bunch of candles. Uh, I didn't, you know, read any spells. I didn't get into
00:22:13.688 Speaker 2 any of that stuff. Like, I didn't-
00:22:14.948 Speaker 1 Hmm
00:22:15.188 Speaker 2 ... see any of this coming. I was just trying to be happier and understand myself
00:22:19.508 Speaker 2 and the world. That was it.
00:22:21.748 Speaker 1 Hmm. The question about like where do thoughts begin, I resonate with, um, and I'm
00:22:27.688 Speaker 1 curious about, you know, your experience being a fiction writer for such a long
00:22:31.728 Speaker 1 time. I read this book called "Big Magic" by Elizabeth Gilbert, and that was a
00:22:37.568 Speaker 1 paradigm-shifting book for me because she talks about like
00:22:41.748 Speaker 1 stories as these beings that exist outside your own mind. And I think when I
00:22:47.788 Speaker 1 first began writing, I thought all my ideas came from my own head and
00:22:53.608 Speaker 1 maybe my life history and, you know, my interests. But the more I sat with it,
00:22:59.588 Speaker 1 the more like I became comfortable sitting in the uncertainty and opening
00:23:05.428 Speaker 1 to what wanted to come through me. My idea of like where the stories come from
00:23:10.908 Speaker 1 totally shifted, where now I think, yeah, I, I think that the story is a being that
00:23:15.348 Speaker 1 exists outside space-time or in another realm, another frequency of consciousness, I
00:23:21.128 Speaker 1 guess, and that I'm kind of this conduit, and it is expressing itself into the world
00:23:26.288 Speaker 1 through me. I'll have no idea what I'm gonna write, um, or I'll just have like an
00:23:31.008 Speaker 1 inkling of it, and I'll just sit down with my notebook, pen in hand, and I'll just
00:23:35.348 Speaker 1 sit there in a kind of receptive state, and then an idea strikes me, and an image
00:23:40.548 Speaker 1 comes to me. And it's not like I thought of an image. I thought of y- it comes to
00:23:45.728 Speaker 1 me. And yeah, and then the more I thought about that and practicing meditation,
00:23:50.788 Speaker 1 you're really like exploring your thoughts, exploring your consciousness. Um,
00:23:56.528 Speaker 1 I'm also like, I don't know where, where are these words coming from right now? How
00:23:59.588 Speaker 1 am I forming words? How am I talking to you? How are we holding the thread of this
00:24:04.348 Speaker 1 conversation? Like, all of that is just a mystery. It's pretty weird. [chuckles]
00:24:09.428 Speaker 2 Yeah. Uh, nothing but mysteries. Uh, I-- even though I accepted the
00:24:15.408 Speaker 2 value, you know, I had those models for materialism and the, the belief in reason
00:24:20.908 Speaker 2 and logic and scientific method and all of these tools and models for understanding
00:24:26.388 Speaker 2 the world. They were very foundational, but they were not the most foundational
00:24:29.368 Speaker 2 beliefs I had. Those were really an accountability to truth and curiosity, and
00:24:35.300 Speaker 2 ultimately those won out. [chuckles] It was, it was not easy, um,
00:24:41.720 Speaker 2 but I pursued a firsthand exploration, right? That is another way of truth.
00:24:47.700 Speaker 2 You can prove something through mathematics, through... Or you can come near to
00:24:52.080 Speaker 2 proving a theory w-with science, right? To a degree of sufficiency anyway, right?
00:24:57.120 Speaker 2 Those are excellent tools. They're still awesome. They're still great. However,
00:25:01.500 Speaker 2 firsthand exploration is also just as valid, right? If you hear a crazy idea, and
00:25:06.900 Speaker 2 I've heard many- [chuckles] ... I just started following up on them. Like- Mm ...
00:25:10.240 Speaker 2 I'll try it. Mm-hmm. We'll see what happens. I kept doing that, and it kept
00:25:14.660 Speaker 2 surprising me, and it kept working, and [chuckles] I haven't stopped. Not everything
00:25:19.400 Speaker 2 worked, but enough of them did that I began to realize... Uh, well, I guess we'll go
00:25:24.300 Speaker 2 with the moment of rupture here. Uh, that would probably be the first UFO experience
00:25:29.300 Speaker 2 that I had, a sighting. Um, I think at that point in time, I h-
00:25:35.080 Speaker 2 the, like, congressional hearings with David Grusch had happened recently, and I'm
00:25:39.420 Speaker 2 like, "What? Uh, what is this?" [chuckles] I looked into this, and I'm like, "Did he
00:25:43.860 Speaker 2 just say what I thought he said?" And so I start looking into this, and, and then of
00:25:48.420 Speaker 2 course, then I see one. Um, I mean, I can describe the experience, but this one is
00:25:54.260 Speaker 2 not spectacular. Um, I'm just looking out the back window, and I see just, like,
00:26:00.160 Speaker 2 almost like a swarm of, like, jellyfish. There's just these flashing white lights in
00:26:03.920 Speaker 2 the distance on the horizon, and they're firing like a neural networks, like do, do,
00:26:07.760 Speaker 2 do, do, do- Mm ... like in a series, and it's just like a cloud. Um, they weren't
00:26:13.020 Speaker 2 drones. Uh, the light was weird. It was different. It was so bright, it was almost,
00:26:17.440 Speaker 2 like, angry. It was, like, piercing. Like, it was kinda like the sunlight is much
00:26:22.080 Speaker 2 brighter than a flashlight, but you can't tell because our eyes have, like, a, a
00:26:25.860 Speaker 2 logar- logarithmic, um, like, curve to them in terms of sensitivity. So a
00:26:31.760 Speaker 2 sunlight and flashlight might look similar, but the sun is way, way brighter
00:26:36.760 Speaker 2 [chuckles] than you think it is. This was like that. It was exceedingly bright, but
00:26:41.320 Speaker 2 only for a second. And I'm like, "Am I really seeing this?" Like, that's crazy. And
00:26:45.880 Speaker 2 that's it. They just float by, and that started, of course, this
00:26:52.100 Speaker 2 UFOs are a gateway drug, as many people know. [chuckles] Uh, not by accident, as I
00:26:56.860 Speaker 2 later find out, uh, of course, and, you know, become obsessed about this. I needed
00:27:02.020 Speaker 2 to know, because this doesn't fit my world model. And, um, I continue to
00:27:07.940 Speaker 2 meditate, I continue to explore, but now I'm starting to look into other things as
00:27:11.780 Speaker 2 well, uh, and they start to come across my path. Um, so those are extrasensory
00:27:16.320 Speaker 2 abilities. Even, like, traditional stuff. Dean Radin's books, get into those. Great
00:27:21.020 Speaker 2 stuff. These are modern takes on, on magic. The Yoga Sutras even describe siddhis. I
00:27:26.540 Speaker 2 start looking into that. I'm like, "What is this?" Like, all these people are
00:27:29.580 Speaker 2 talking about this. Maybe there's something... I was wrong about this. What else am
00:27:33.160 Speaker 2 I wrong about, right? That is the one crack that shatters everything else, is, okay,
00:27:38.900 Speaker 2 well, I was really wrong. Like, why would I not be really wrong about all this other
00:27:43.520 Speaker 2 stuff? So now I have to go do another, uh, on my own. Fine. All right. Let's go look
00:27:48.480 Speaker 2 into [chuckles] cryptozoology. Look into all of these things, because I don't know
00:27:52.440 Speaker 2 what else is wrong. And to my great surprise, um, many of them end up being true. So
00:27:57.340 Speaker 2 I start testing them firsthand. Um, and I have another UFO
00:28:02.820 Speaker 2 experience. Uh, I'm in a pretty deep non-dual meditative state after a child's
00:28:07.820 Speaker 2 birthday party. Only somebody with y- very young children could possibly understand
00:28:11.900 Speaker 2 why that would be necessary. [chuckles] It's like a four-hour party, and by the end,
00:28:15.720 Speaker 2 it's at an arcade. I'm just like, "I'm either gonna die or I'm gonna have to enter
00:28:21.120 Speaker 2 some sort of trance state here to survive." [chuckles] So I do, and I'm pretty deep
00:28:27.000 Speaker 2 in it. I don't have, like, complete ego dissolution, but I'm, I'm a field of
00:28:31.780 Speaker 2 awareness. And I decide... We get home. I decide to go for a run, and I'm running,
00:28:36.500 Speaker 2 and I'm just, like, watching a person run. [chuckles] It's like, cool. Uh, I'm
00:28:42.340 Speaker 2 pretty out there. And then I look up. I have a feeling I'm going to see something on
00:28:46.580 Speaker 2 the way home. I'm in the passenger seat. My wife is driving. I get home, and I go
00:28:50.260 Speaker 2 for a run, and I look up over my house, and I see a
00:28:55.520 Speaker 2 four-foot-ish tall, uh, matte black kidney bean-shaped object floating in
00:29:01.560 Speaker 2 a straight line about a quarter of a mile behind my house, and it goes behind a tree
00:29:06.020 Speaker 2 line. It's just flight- floating in a straight line. Um, and of course, I see it.
00:29:11.660 Speaker 2 I'm pretty deep in, and I go, "Oh yeah, that makes sense." That's literally the
00:29:15.620 Speaker 2 thought that comes to my mind after having almost no thoughts for a while. I'm like,
00:29:19.320 Speaker 2 "Yeah, that makes sense." And then I start to get pulled out of that real quick, and
00:29:23.620 Speaker 2 I go, "Wait a minute. What the hell? No, no, no. [chuckles] What, what am I looking
00:29:28.120 Speaker 2 at?" Uh, that actually shouldn't exist, and I snap back to association pretty
00:29:34.060 Speaker 2 quickly, and then I start to panic. Like, I wanna go, like, jump some
00:29:39.700 Speaker 2 fences and go, like, run at this thing, 'cause it's, like, in a cul-de-sac in the
00:29:43.340 Speaker 2 neighborhood behind us. I'm like, "I wanna go look at this." Um, it's got this,
00:29:47.100 Speaker 2 like, mother-of-pearl sheen on it, and it's floating in a, in a line. Like, this
00:29:51.300 Speaker 2 thing is not moving. Um, and then I start to get very scared. I'm like,
00:29:57.500 Speaker 2 "Oh, I can't do that." Like, if I go run and try to find this thing, like, nobody's
00:30:03.020 Speaker 2 gonna know. If I, [chuckles] if I disappear, literally nobody on this planet could
00:30:06.640 Speaker 2 help me if this goes wrong. Um, and but so that one really rocks my
00:30:12.480 Speaker 2 world because I know what I've seen, right? This isn't just some lights in the
00:30:15.460 Speaker 2 distance. Like, this is a physical appearing thing, right? Uh, I, and
00:30:21.460 Speaker 2 I know what I saw. I drew pictures immediately afterward. I tried to describe
00:30:25.160 Speaker 2 everything I could in my own journals, and that rocked my world. And I took a lot of
00:30:30.660 Speaker 2 these things much more seriously. And then of course, after that, I do end up having
00:30:36.636 Speaker 2 two more UFO experiences, but that is when I start to have more personal and
00:30:41.816 Speaker 2 profound experiences that are not, like, in the sky or not happening outside of me,
00:30:47.516 Speaker 2 uh, but are definitely happening to me. It feels much more personal and directed. So
00:30:52.536 Speaker 2 I mean, we can get into that, but-
00:30:53.956 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm
00:30:54.036 Speaker 2 ... whatever you wanna get into.
00:30:55.496 Speaker 1 [chuckles] Uh, thank you for sharing that. I love the impulse that you had
00:31:01.416 Speaker 1 to run at the being, but then you're like, "Maybe I shouldn't." [chuckles]
00:31:04.896 Speaker 2 I, actually, that's a bad idea. [chuckles]
00:31:07.336 Speaker 1 I don't know where this thing could take me or what this thing is. Yeah. [chuckles]
00:31:11.236 Speaker 2 Yeah. Who's gonna save me? [chuckles]
00:31:13.716 Speaker 1 I feel like I'm a similar kind of thing. Like, if I saw something, I'd be like,
00:31:17.196 Speaker 1 "Yes, like finally." [chuckles]
00:31:19.716 Speaker 2 You think you'd be excited-
00:31:21.036 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:31:21.056 Speaker 2 ... but when you're actually there-
00:31:22.836 Speaker 1 Mm
00:31:22.876 Speaker 2 ... and it's actually in front of you, you're like, "Holy shit."
00:31:27.436 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, ontological shock-
00:31:28.716 Speaker 2 I am-
00:31:28.796 Speaker 1 ... terror. Yeah
00:31:29.456 Speaker 2 ... I'm legitimately horrified.
00:31:32.356 Speaker 1 Mm.
00:31:32.596 Speaker 2 But I was also fascinated at the same time. I was really being ripped-
00:31:35.476 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:31:35.556 Speaker 2 ... apart there. [chuckles]
00:31:38.036 Speaker 1 Being ripped apart. [chuckles]
00:31:41.036 Speaker 2 [chuckles]
00:31:41.356 Speaker 1 Um, I, I like the phrase you used, "UFOs were a gateway drug." I mean, you had an
00:31:47.056 Speaker 1 experience that shattered your reality. You know, you could've just been like, "Oh,
00:31:51.576 Speaker 1 that didn't really happen," or maybe it was not... I was seeing something or I
00:31:55.176 Speaker 1 wasn't in my right mind, which is maybe how a lot of people would write that off.
00:31:58.556 Speaker 1 But I think it happened because you were, you know, already doing all this inner
00:32:01.696 Speaker 1 work and meditation, and you're already on this process of experiencing paradigm
00:32:06.036 Speaker 1 shift. Um, and it kind of was like, uh, the experience that could, like, invite you
00:32:12.016 Speaker 1 into something deeper maybe. My own experience, um, encountering my, like, the
00:32:17.956 Speaker 1 chakras in my body, um, I had like a, what I understand to be a kundalini awakening,
00:32:24.256 Speaker 1 um, and energy experiences, big, really big energy, state energy
00:32:30.156 Speaker 1 body experiences-
00:32:31.836 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm
00:32:31.876 Speaker 1 ... um, in many psychedelic journeys, and outside of them too, that, uh, shatter-
00:32:37.956 Speaker 1 like, that were... I mean, like, similar to you, there were all these ruptures along
00:32:41.635 Speaker 1 the way, but that was a really big paradigm shift where I was like... I mean, I knew
00:32:45.816 Speaker 1 about them. I'd studied, like, meditation. I was fascinated with the siddhis when I
00:32:50.256 Speaker 1 was, uh, in undergrad and beginning to study Buddhism, you know, loving fantasy
00:32:56.036 Speaker 1 novels. I was like, "Oh, yogic superpowers." Like, I'd love to have-
00:32:59.376 Speaker 2 Yeah
00:32:59.456 Speaker 1 ... some of those. [chuckles] Um, but yeah, you know, it was like, it was
00:33:05.976 Speaker 1 finally an experience that happened to me that was, like, outside of the, you know,
00:33:09.796 Speaker 1 the, the paradigm I had been inhabiting, and it was just, like, really personal and
00:33:14.316 Speaker 1 intimate and real. And I don't know what I thought about. Like, these things exist
00:33:19.896 Speaker 1 on our peripheries. Like, everybody knows that people tell stories about UFOs or
00:33:25.836 Speaker 1 that there are people out there who claim to have had experiences with UFOs. Like,
00:33:30.136 Speaker 1 when we're growing up, you know, or, you know, in the mainstream culture, all of
00:33:34.756 Speaker 1 these traditions that talk about body energy, chakra, chi, prana, like kundalini,
00:33:39.776 Speaker 1 like all over the world. But somehow, you're just kind of like, I don't know where,
00:33:45.896 Speaker 1 what I thought of it. I can't even relate to myself back then. Like, what did I
00:33:49.476 Speaker 1 think that was?
00:33:50.956 Speaker 2 Yep.
00:33:51.476 Speaker 1 Until I had an experience and I was like, "Oh my God, the chakras are real."
00:33:55.216 Speaker 2 You have to. You have to experience it firsthand.
00:33:57.976 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:33:58.016 Speaker 2 There's no replacement.
00:33:59.416 Speaker 1 Mm.
00:33:59.536 Speaker 2 You can't be told, and that is also a running theme here, is that you have to be
00:34:03.156 Speaker 2 shown. Being told is enough to get you to go, but you have to seek it out. This is
00:34:08.176 Speaker 2 so clear over and over again. You have to seek this out with your own curiosity,
00:34:11.976 Speaker 2 your own desire to do it firsthand. You have to struggle through it. You have to get
00:34:15.636 Speaker 2 shattered over and over again and put your world back together, and you have to keep
00:34:19.456 Speaker 2 coming back for more, and then this whole world opens up to you.
00:34:23.956 Speaker 1 Mm.
00:34:24.176 Speaker 2 Um, and yeah, you don't have to start with UFOs. A- any... It's really a curiosity
00:34:29.776 Speaker 2 and a drive and openness, uh, to eventually accept what you have
00:34:35.276 Speaker 2 experienced and to make meaning of it, and then it will keep happening. That's what
00:34:40.236 Speaker 2 happened to me. So you described a sort of chakra experience. I'm, wasn't steeped
00:34:46.276 Speaker 2 in this world. Like, I didn't know what that was. Uh, I started to have
00:34:51.796 Speaker 2 experiences like that late 2024. I was doing a
00:34:57.656 Speaker 2 meditation. It was a long one. It went up about two hours, and I was seeing, like,
00:35:03.776 Speaker 2 visuals. Like, it looked like music visuals, like, uh, uh, visualizations you might
00:35:09.676 Speaker 2 expect, looking through, like, tunnels of various geometric colored shapes. I was
00:35:14.256 Speaker 2 seeing it in my visual field with my eyes closed. Like, it was there. It wasn't
00:35:17.876 Speaker 2 super bright, but I could see it. There was all sorts of symbols, and then I felt a
00:35:23.336 Speaker 2 burning sensation in my chest. Like, it was a bonfire in there. And when I was done,
00:35:28.456 Speaker 2 and it was still going, and then I was starting to get worried. Like, after, I was
00:35:32.936 Speaker 2 feeling better than I'd ever felt before. Uh, but at the same time, um, I was
00:35:38.936 Speaker 2 like, "Why is there, like, literal fire and heat in my chest? Like, what is
00:35:43.176 Speaker 2 happening?" And so I had to go learn about these things afterward. But for me, that
00:35:47.856 Speaker 2 was also very validating because it's not like I imagined it. I didn't know what
00:35:51.796 Speaker 2 this was. I had no idea what I was experiencing. It was just happening to me. Like,
00:35:56.896 Speaker 2 I just stumbled into it, and so I had to make sense of events like that. Like, "Oh,
00:36:01.236 Speaker 2 okay. I guess inner, this energy stuff is a thing. I always thought that this was
00:36:05.956 Speaker 2 made up and stupid."
00:36:07.096 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
00:36:07.216 Speaker 2 Uh, but, uh, I am absolutely feeling this and various other things. Like, this is
00:36:12.956 Speaker 2 definitely happening. Like somatically, I can feel it. This isn't just imagination.
00:36:17.496 Speaker 2 Like, this is bordering on pain, it's so strong.
00:36:21.476 Speaker 1 Mm.
00:36:21.496 Speaker 2 Like, I... [chuckles] Okay, something's going on. I gotta go figure this out, which
00:36:26.036 Speaker 2 of course leads to the next domino, right? The, and these events just keep
00:36:30.476 Speaker 2 happening. I'm waking up in the middle of the night I'm having profoundly vivid and
00:36:36.492 Speaker 2 strange dreams. I'm waking up in the middle of conversations. I didn't get the first
00:36:40.892 Speaker 2 part of the conversation, but I see myself talking. Or I'm waking up, like, in a
00:36:44.912 Speaker 2 liminal state, and my thoughts are going. I'm well aware of, like, my thoughts are
00:36:49.572 Speaker 2 not always my own. Some are more mine, less mine. It's like a spectrum. And I'm
00:36:54.132 Speaker 2 talking. I'm watching myself talk, and I'm slowly waking up like, "Who the hell am I
00:36:58.712 Speaker 2 talking to? [laughs] What is happening? Who am I talking to?"
00:37:02.492 Speaker 1 Hmm.
00:37:02.712 Speaker 2 These things keep happening. I have nightmares that feel extremely vivid, and
00:37:08.752 Speaker 2 there's, like, something there. I feel this instinctive, like, terror, sense that,
00:37:13.972 Speaker 2 oh, no, there... This is, like, happening. Like, I'm in a dream, but I'm not alone
00:37:18.472 Speaker 2 in my dream. There's some- somebody or something else in my dream. Or I would wake
00:37:23.352 Speaker 2 up, and I would feel the sense of a presence. Or deep in meditation, I started to
00:37:28.192 Speaker 2 get thoughts that did not feel like my own. And I can say that because when
00:37:34.232 Speaker 2 you've been meditating for 45 minutes and you haven't had a thought in 20 minutes,
00:37:37.672 Speaker 2 and it is just still as the ocean, and you're just like, "Yeah." [laughs]
00:37:42.712 Speaker 1 Hmm.
00:37:42.872 Speaker 2 And then you get a thought like, "Why do you come in here?" That was one of the ones
00:37:48.292 Speaker 2 I wrote down. It's from one of the first verbal thoughts I got. I was like, "Why do
00:37:51.352 Speaker 2 you come in here?" Like, 'cause I meditate in a closet. [laughs] I'm like... It was
00:37:55.092 Speaker 2 loud. That is jarring. When you're just... You're not trying to make anything
00:37:59.172 Speaker 2 happen. There's nothing on your mind. You're just still as the ocean, just like,
00:38:02.612 Speaker 2 "Hey, why do you come in here?" [laughs] What's going on? Where did that come from?
00:38:07.312 Speaker 2 Um-
00:38:07.932 Speaker 1 Are you hearing this, like, audibly?
00:38:10.612 Speaker 2 That one was a verbal thought. I do get clairaudience
00:38:16.392 Speaker 2 sometimes, which is a sense of sound.
00:38:19.312 Speaker 1 Hmm.
00:38:19.412 Speaker 2 It doesn't usually have a source, but it is heard in the same way that you hear
00:38:22.852 Speaker 2 sounds. It just sounds like it's coming from everywhere. If you were to play a sound
00:38:26.832 Speaker 2 through headphones, and it's the same in both speakers, it's kinda like that. I do
00:38:30.772 Speaker 2 get those sometimes. They're not as common. It's mostly verbal thoughts. But it was
00:38:35.472 Speaker 2 the out of context nature of the thought that was like, I absolutely did not make
00:38:41.392 Speaker 2 that happen. Wherever it comes from, however you wanna claim the, the cognitive
00:38:46.012 Speaker 2 science of it, this was directed. It was inserted into my head. [laughs] And I start
00:38:52.012 Speaker 2 to get those, at first during meditation, um, and usually it's, like,
00:38:58.152 Speaker 2 helpful. [laughs] Um, I went through my old journals, and, like, I start to go
00:39:01.972 Speaker 2 through these, like, what are they saying? It's like advice. You cannot give to
00:39:05.672 Speaker 2 others what you deny yourself, right? Just hear that thought. I'm staring at a fire.
00:39:10.572 Speaker 2 I'm, like, super, like, uh, dissociated. Then I hear, "You are the fire. You're the
00:39:15.732 Speaker 2 same thing." [laughs] Like, just comes out of nowhere. So that starts to happen. And
00:39:20.712 Speaker 2 then I start to get out of context emotions, as in I'm feeling an emotion that
00:39:26.612 Speaker 2 is completely dissimilar to what I'm doing. I'm just chilling, just, like, walking
00:39:30.472 Speaker 2 around, doing chores, and I feel, like, a profound, like, sadness or longing or,
00:39:35.992 Speaker 2 like, curiosity and the impression of, like, a smile or that somebody is watching
00:39:40.772 Speaker 2 me. It's like, "What the hell is happening to me?" [laughs]
00:39:44.952 Speaker 1 Hmm.
00:39:44.992 Speaker 2 Where is this coming from? [laughs] Like, there's somebody there, but there's nobody
00:39:49.752 Speaker 2 physically present, right? And so that starts to happen more, uh, and more.
00:39:55.672 Speaker 2 And, um, I have to start taking it seriously because, I mean, it's scary.
00:40:01.212 Speaker 2 [laughs] I don't know what else to put that. Like, it's, um, it's frightening, uh,
00:40:06.712 Speaker 2 because I have no model for this. I don't come from any sort of background. None of
00:40:11.212 Speaker 2 my friends talk about this, none of my family. This is not normal. I've got some
00:40:15.672 Speaker 2 pretty, like, watered-down, uh, modern Christian, like, parents, but for the most
00:40:21.512 Speaker 2 part, [laughs] they don't even go to church. Like, uh, I have no grounding. I have
00:40:25.312 Speaker 2 no idea what's happening to me. Uh, and that's the, the sort of stage I'm in, I
00:40:30.312 Speaker 2 don't know, starting a year or so ago, I guess, is when this starts to happen, but
00:40:34.032 Speaker 2 I, I'm pushing it away, right? I'm not... This is not good. Like, [laughs] you
00:40:38.592 Speaker 2 can't... Everyone talks to themselves. This is not how talking to myself feels, and
00:40:44.152 Speaker 2 I already have a pretty fractured and chaotic mind on a regular basis, but this is
00:40:48.232 Speaker 2 new, right? This is not how I normally experience things.
00:40:53.472 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's... I mean, what comes to mind is, like, how our culture would make
00:40:58.052 Speaker 1 sense of those experiences would probably say schizophrenia,
00:41:04.132 Speaker 1 right? Hearing voices in your head, seeing things that aren't there, things like
00:41:09.072 Speaker 1 that, versus there's another way of understanding it as spiritual emergence,
00:41:15.152 Speaker 1 the shattering of a paradigm emerging into a greater reality, a broader
00:41:21.292 Speaker 1 universe where weird shit happens. Like, it's like the weirdness and strangeness-
00:41:26.192 Speaker 2 Yeah
00:41:26.252 Speaker 1 ... you know? And, um, I'm curious, like, how do you remain grounded as all of
00:41:31.372 Speaker 1 these, uh, anomalous things begin happening to you? How do you not lose yourself in
00:41:36.192 Speaker 1 them?
00:41:37.812 Speaker 2 I'd struggled profoundly with a chaotic mind and lack of self-control, uh, emotional
00:41:43.452 Speaker 2 instability my entire life. Like, I, I had learned how, frankly, to not trust
00:41:49.332 Speaker 2 myself but still rely on myself. I'd learned that I couldn't, right? I already had
00:41:54.172 Speaker 2 that humility. Like, I already knew what it was like to fall apart over and over
00:41:58.852 Speaker 2 again and put yourself back together 'cause you gotta go to work next week, right?
00:42:01.912 Speaker 2 It doesn't matter that you have literally zero motivation for no reason. It doesn't
00:42:05.792 Speaker 2 matter that you're incredibly depressed with no apparent cause. Uh, you gotta get it
00:42:09.992 Speaker 2 together, right? [laughs] You gotta just get it together. I had already learned,
00:42:13.272 Speaker 2 like, how to, like, control myself and a level of humility,
00:42:19.032 Speaker 2 [laughs] put it that way, and those tools really came in h- And I'd been meditating
00:42:23.352 Speaker 2 at this point for years, so I knew how to sort of take an observer perspective. I
00:42:28.012 Speaker 2 knew how to step back and to be okay. So I had these things to fall back on, and
00:42:34.132 Speaker 2 I really needed every single one of those tools And ultimately, I wanted to know
00:42:39.736 Speaker 2 what was true. And although I've mentioned some scary things, most of the
00:42:44.076 Speaker 2 experiences, even now and especially now more so, were very loving and, like,
00:42:50.316 Speaker 2 strange, but not bad, right? [chuckles] Uh, so it's not like
00:42:56.916 Speaker 2 it was getting worse, like it was, uh, like a haunting movie or like, [chuckles] you
00:43:01.236 Speaker 2 know? Or things just continue to get worse. Um, it was getting magnified, but it
00:43:06.396 Speaker 2 wasn't bad. And, and so that, that helped a lot as well. And I wanted to know.
00:43:12.316 Speaker 2 Ultimately, I couldn't rest because I, I needed to know. And of course, I ruled
00:43:17.636 Speaker 2 everything out. You know, I, I seek psychiatric help. I, I obsessively research on
00:43:22.956 Speaker 2 my own. It doesn't fit any of these models. Like, I go through it. I'm reading
00:43:27.116 Speaker 2 books. Like, [chuckles] doing everything.
00:43:29.016 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:43:29.156 Speaker 2 And I'm being honest because I want it. At this point, I'm like, "I would love for
00:43:33.256 Speaker 2 this to be insanity. That would be great." [chuckles] That would be way easier. Give
00:43:37.076 Speaker 2 me the label, so I'm all for it.
00:43:38.636 Speaker 1 Mm.
00:43:38.796 Speaker 2 But none of them fit, and no one would diagnose me with that because it didn't fit.
00:43:42.976 Speaker 2 It's like, "You're good." Like, "Dude, just don't worry about it. Like, pursue
00:43:46.676 Speaker 2 this." Uh, a very enlightened psychiatrist is like, "The worst thing you could do is
00:43:50.876 Speaker 2 suppress this. You need to go-
00:43:53.236 Speaker 1 Mm.
00:43:53.256 Speaker 2 "You need to go see this through and check it out. And as long as you're not hurting
00:43:55.696 Speaker 2 anyone or you don't feel like you're in any danger or, like, you can function,
00:43:59.636 Speaker 2 you're... And it feels good and not bad, go. Like, go explore this. You need to find
00:44:05.276 Speaker 2 out who you are and what's happening to you. I'm not here to tell you what's not
00:44:08.736 Speaker 2 true. I'm here to tell you that you're not crazy in the ways that we have learned to
00:44:13.176 Speaker 2 call, like, DSM-5 labels. You don't have any of these, or to the degree you do,
00:44:17.576 Speaker 2 you're not dysfunctional. It's not that. I'm not here to tell you what's true. You
00:44:21.556 Speaker 2 go figure that out on your own." [chuckles] Like, oh, cool. Pretty good
00:44:24.996 Speaker 2 psychiatrist. Um, so I do. And I start learning other
00:44:30.836 Speaker 2 skills, um, like telekinesis. Uh, you can move things around, and
00:44:36.796 Speaker 2 that profoundly changes [chuckles] your whole world when you learn how to do that.
00:44:40.636 Speaker 2 It took me a long time. I stared at a piece of tinfoil sitting on a needle, commonly
00:44:44.936 Speaker 2 called a psi wheel, and it has very little friction, so it spins very easily. It's
00:44:49.636 Speaker 2 just a piece of little tent of aluminum foil over a needle stuck into, like, a
00:44:52.916 Speaker 2 sponge or eraser.
00:44:54.296 Speaker 1 Hmm.
00:44:54.536 Speaker 2 It's got very little friction. That thing will turn easily. Basically a pinwheel.
00:44:58.416 Speaker 2 And, um, you can use that to train, right? The goal is, uh, move. [chuckles] Just
00:45:03.656 Speaker 2 however you do it. I stared at that thing for 30 hours. Like, I read a book on
00:45:07.556 Speaker 2 telekinesis. I'm like, I was on board for an idealistic universe at this point.
00:45:11.616 Speaker 2 Like, I mean, what else could explain all this crazy stuff? And, um-
00:45:16.156 Speaker 1 Could you pause just for a second and explain what idealistic universe means?
00:45:19.336 Speaker 2 [chuckles] Sure. Uh, that, um, matter is not fundamental.
00:45:25.416 Speaker 2 It is ideas and non-physical concepts, energy, consciousness is fundamental.
00:45:31.556 Speaker 2 It is consciousness and the things in its contents. Doesn't mean there's not rules,
00:45:36.956 Speaker 2 uh, but that nothing is off limits, basically. It's imagination, right? There is no
00:45:42.216 Speaker 2 real line between imagination and material reality. It's mostly a matter of patience
00:45:47.276 Speaker 2 and preference. But eventually, those two always converge.
00:45:50.536 Speaker 1 Hmm.
00:45:50.916 Speaker 2 Uh, it's more like a spectrum. Uh, so you have to take my word for it for now, but
00:45:56.176 Speaker 2 that's my view of reality. But yeah, once you've... After about 30 hours, I got that
00:46:01.756 Speaker 2 thing to move without touching it. And, um, I recorded it, and I cried because I...
00:46:07.536 Speaker 2 You know, it was so validating, right? You can have these crazy experiences, but it
00:46:12.116 Speaker 2 wasn't you doing it, right? It felt like things that were happening to me. This was,
00:46:15.856 Speaker 2 like, the first time that, like, oh, I can use this. Like, this is not only real,
00:46:19.736 Speaker 2 but, like, I can do something. I'm not just a helpless victim. Like, I can
00:46:24.036 Speaker 2 participate. Uh, this is, I can do stuff. So I got better at that, and I start to
00:46:29.416 Speaker 2 get into remote viewing, and I start to use that as a way of exploring reality as
00:46:33.476 Speaker 2 well. And I've been practicing that almost daily for more than a year now. And then
00:46:38.596 Speaker 2 I, as you well know, I learned other skills. I go... I start learning about these
00:46:42.856 Speaker 2 things, like, well, that's probably true, so let's go find out. Sure enough, it is.
00:46:46.216 Speaker 2 Cool. So I go learn mindsight, the ability to see without eyes. I can do that. The
00:46:51.476 Speaker 2 viewers will have to take my word for it. I don't mind demoing it if you want me to,
00:46:54.596 Speaker 2 but, um, that's not really the point. You can do this stuff. And I began to take
00:46:59.376 Speaker 2 very seriously its intention. It's all just intention and energy and consciousness.
00:47:04.916 Speaker 2 Yes, there are rules, and there's a lot of us on this rock, and of course, there are
00:47:08.296 Speaker 2 structures and patterns and friction. There are sort of metaphysical rules, but all
00:47:12.876 Speaker 2 of them are soft rules. Nothing is fundamental. It's all just like, um, has inertia
00:47:18.136 Speaker 2 to it. But ultimately, if you will hard enough, like, you can change the rules. Um,
00:47:24.156 Speaker 2 otherwise, senses like mindsight don't make sense. You can't see without eyeballs.
00:47:27.796 Speaker 2 It doesn't make sense. I can close my eyes, put on a blindfold, and see like I have
00:47:31.776 Speaker 2 eyes. And that, once you can do that, your whole world changes. As I do these
00:47:37.136 Speaker 2 things, it's like stairsteps. The experiences that are coming back to me, it's like
00:47:41.416 Speaker 2 I have a doorbell and a mailbox now and a front door, and I have a cell, a cell
00:47:45.676 Speaker 2 phone for the first time into the spiritual world, and they're like, "Hey, what's
00:47:49.136 Speaker 2 up? [chuckles] Hey, you can talk now. You can see things. You can touch things. You
00:47:52.816 Speaker 2 can interact. What's up, man? You wanna, you wanna talk?" And that starts to scare
00:47:57.236 Speaker 2 the hell out of me as... I guess that's really sort of the next leg of the journey
00:48:01.116 Speaker 2 is not only could I do things, and I kind of understand some of how reality works.
00:48:07.016 Speaker 2 Now it's reaching back to me.
00:48:09.216 Speaker 1 Mm.
00:48:09.356 Speaker 2 "Hey, [chuckles] what's up? Looks like you kinda see what's going on now. You wanna
00:48:14.516 Speaker 2 talk?" And, um, that's more or less the stage I'm in now.
00:48:20.816 Speaker 1 I met you in this class last fall, and, uh, during the class, you went
00:48:26.756 Speaker 1 on this mindsight training, and you were giving updates in the class feed about,
00:48:33.276 Speaker 1 uh, the training and then afterwards. Um, I just, I just like Love
00:48:39.968 Speaker 1 hearing about your willingness and your capacity to explore and,
00:48:45.948 Speaker 1 like, the focus you bring into all of these ways that you've learned to train your
00:48:51.448 Speaker 1 mind, your consciousness, um, and just your, yeah, your openness to, like, try it,
00:48:57.128 Speaker 1 you know? Like, [chuckles] to-- You, like, feel like, "Well, let's see if
00:49:00.028 Speaker 1 telekinesis is real. I'm gonna invest 30 hours in trying," you know? [chuckles]
00:49:04.948 Speaker 2 And how amazing that finally you got that little piece of aluminum foil to move.
00:49:09.788 Speaker 1 Yeah. [chuckles] And I've s- I, I, I don't have a... I'm, I'm not gonna share a
00:49:14.568 Speaker 1 video, but I've seen Steven do a, um, demo of his mindsight, uh,
00:49:21.588 Speaker 1 abilities, and pretty, pretty incredible to see it firsthand. Like, I've heard about
00:49:26.528 Speaker 1 people having these skills, and Steven's told me himself about that, but... Or
00:49:30.348 Speaker 1 you've told me yourself about that. But when I saw it firsthand, it did something to
00:49:35.628 Speaker 1 me.
00:49:36.888 Speaker 2 It's real, man.
00:49:37.908 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:49:38.108 Speaker 2 Just imagine how it feels doing it. You don't have to. Like, you can do it. Anyone
00:49:41.528 Speaker 2 can do it. Like, that's... This story is not really my story so much it is, it's a
00:49:46.208 Speaker 2 template, you know? It's a blueprint for one way to do all this yourself. Like, it's
00:49:51.068 Speaker 2 not unique to me. Anyone can do it. I just was obsessively curious, and I had to
00:49:56.268 Speaker 2 make sense of my world, and it kept not making sense. And [chuckles] I kept having
00:50:00.508 Speaker 2 to figuring it out, and I was... More things kept being true, and I didn't like it.
00:50:05.768 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:50:05.848 Speaker 2 A lot of this, it sounds very happy, this journey, but this was really an obsessive-
00:50:11.448 Speaker 1 Mm.
00:50:11.528 Speaker 2 I had the sort of meditation, yoga practices to fall back on. Like, I'm
00:50:17.268 Speaker 2 unconditionally okay, but sometimes only barely. Like, my whole world doesn't make
00:50:22.088 Speaker 2 sense anymore. Like, I don't-
00:50:23.628 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm
00:50:23.848 Speaker 2 ... know what to do with this. I keep... [chuckles] I don't know, how do I walk
00:50:27.228 Speaker 2 around after realizing stuff's all made up, man? Like, this is... I mean, it's real,
00:50:33.608 Speaker 2 but this is just a projection. Like, this is... I'm not this body. I'm not this
00:50:38.468 Speaker 2 person. Just sort of a field of consciousness. We all are. It's, we're kinda making
00:50:43.428 Speaker 2 a lot of this stuff up, stuff up as we go. None of these things are fundamentally
00:50:47.707 Speaker 2 real, but I know. I can just close my eyes and, and know. [chuckles]
00:50:52.408 Speaker 1 Mm.
00:50:52.408 Speaker 2 "Okay. [chuckles] Yeah, that's still a thing. Uh, cool. I can still..." I was able
00:50:57.608 Speaker 2 to see out b- the back of my head for a little while. I stopped training that one
00:51:01.288 Speaker 2 because it's very disorienting.
00:51:02.548 Speaker 1 I like when you were telling me, telling our group about, um, zooming in on the sun.
00:51:06.528 Speaker 1 You wanna share that story?
00:51:07.208 Speaker 2 Yeah.
00:51:07.828 Speaker 1 [chuckles]
00:51:08.728 Speaker 2 Yeah. Uh, so that one gets weirder, but, uh, I'll leave that part out. But I was
00:51:13.808 Speaker 2 just sitting there. Uh, I wanted to see... Just having fun. Like, a lot of this is
00:51:18.628 Speaker 2 play for me now because, yeah, it's cool. Uh, I'm like, "I wonder what water looks
00:51:22.488 Speaker 2 like," [chuckles] I... now if I just close my eyes. Um, 'cause the cameras sort of
00:51:27.248 Speaker 2 come out from where my eyes are. Um, but I s-see through my eyelids as if they're
00:51:31.788 Speaker 2 not there. And, um, I like, "Oh, I'll just pour water on my face." And I was
00:51:37.608 Speaker 2 laughing 'cause it was so cool. Normally, water isn't in focus 'cause it's on your
00:51:41.568 Speaker 2 eyes. And I could see it. It's like you're pouring water on the other side of a
00:51:44.768 Speaker 2 piece of glass. That's what it looks like.
00:51:46.128 Speaker 1 Huh.
00:51:46.128 Speaker 2 And I was laughing. I thought it was hilarious.
00:51:48.088 Speaker 1 Wow.
00:51:48.208 Speaker 2 I'm like, "What else can I do?" So I go to sit down and read a book, and I'm like,
00:51:51.268 Speaker 2 "I'll read this book without my eyeballs." Um, so I start doing it, and I'm like,
00:51:55.708 Speaker 2 the sun is in my eyes, my fake eyes. [chuckles] Like, it's still bright by contrast.
00:52:01.568 Speaker 2 Like, it's funny how much carries over. Like, you're still using parts of your
00:52:04.708 Speaker 2 brain's visual system, of course. I don't know how it gets there. I don't know.
00:52:08.668 Speaker 2 Don't ask me. It just does. And it's too bright by contrast. It's really hard to
00:52:13.828 Speaker 2 read the book. I'm like, "What is this?" Like, coming in through the window on my
00:52:17.288 Speaker 2 couch. And I'm like, "But you know what? I can just look at the sun. [chuckles] Why
00:52:23.068 Speaker 2 have I never thought of this?" So I do. I, I stare at the sun, and I can start to
00:52:27.308 Speaker 2 see sunspots.
00:52:27.608 Speaker 1 With your eyes closed. You stare at the sun with your eyes closed.
00:52:28.968 Speaker 2 Eyes closed. Don't ever-
00:52:29.948 Speaker 1 Yes.
00:52:30.368 Speaker 2 Uh, don't do it with your eyes open.
00:52:31.548 Speaker 1 [chuckles]
00:52:31.568 Speaker 2 You'll fry your eyeballs. Um, like-
00:52:33.288 Speaker 1 Don't stare at the sun unless you have mindsight, guys. [chuckles]
00:52:36.248 Speaker 2 Or, or those special glasses or whatever, right?
00:52:38.008 Speaker 1 Oh, okay, yeah.
00:52:39.308 Speaker 2 But I'm like, "Holy crap, I'm looking at the sun." Like, look, I can see the little
00:52:42.988 Speaker 2 tiny sunspots on it.
00:52:44.048 Speaker 1 Mm.
00:52:44.068 Speaker 2 Like, this is so cool. And like, I wonder if I can zoom in on the sun. So I do this,
00:52:48.788 Speaker 2 and as I'm doing it, I get, like, this parallax, like, second image, like, kind of
00:52:53.628 Speaker 2 like a lens flare over the first image. I'm like, "Ah, what is this thing?" I start
00:52:58.308 Speaker 2 panning around, and I can see, like, little black spots, and I can move to the edge,
00:53:02.328 Speaker 2 and it looks like it's a ball with, like, fire at the edge of it. And I'm like,
00:53:06.468 Speaker 2 "Holy crap, am I, like, [chuckles] staring at the sun, man? What's
00:53:12.288 Speaker 2 going on?" And like, it's just intention. Um, was I? I,
00:53:18.408 Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't... I couldn't tell you, but it's, I have an openness to
00:53:22.588 Speaker 2 exploring it. Um, it correlates, uh, [chuckles] with the sun. I mean, how much crazy
00:53:28.608 Speaker 2 is it to say you can't zoom in? It's already not real photons. Well, it, it's
00:53:32.088 Speaker 2 already not hitting your eyes and turning into electrical-
00:53:34.568 Speaker 1 Right
00:53:34.708 Speaker 2 ... chemical signals. Why not? How is it crazy to say you can't zoom in? Like,
00:53:38.528 Speaker 2 that's-
00:53:38.768 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:53:39.048 Speaker 2 [chuckles] We're already categorically insane. You may as well explore.
00:53:41.248 Speaker 1 The other crazy thing I thought when you told me that story was that then you pulled
00:53:44.508 Speaker 1 up the image of the sun 'cause you had made a drawing.
00:53:47.808 Speaker 2 Yeah, I did. I, I tried to draw where the sunspots were, and it correlated-
00:53:50.968 Speaker 1 Yeah
00:53:50.968 Speaker 2 ... with the solar activity, uh, on that day at that time from my location in the
00:53:54.968 Speaker 2 world. Uh, I will say that since then, um, I, I think I'm also
00:54:00.728 Speaker 2 looking at artifacts in my cornea. It's very con- This... There's no
00:54:06.588 Speaker 2 instruction manual for this. Like, [chuckles] the, the number of people that can do
00:54:09.948 Speaker 2 real-time mindsight is still only in the hundreds for the world, uh, maybe a little
00:54:13.868 Speaker 2 above a thousand now. It's growing. Uh, but we need people to explore this. Nobody
00:54:18.508 Speaker 2 knows how it works or what it means. Um, so was I? I don't know. Was I looking at my
00:54:22.908 Speaker 2 own, like, parts of my eye? I can see my own eyelashes. I learned that two days ago.
00:54:28.268 Speaker 2 I'm like, "What are these, like, bright lines coming out of everything when I look
00:54:30.888 Speaker 2 at them?" And it took me forever. I'd never been able to figure it out, and I
00:54:34.448 Speaker 2 touched my eyelashes, and then I saw them move, and I just started laughing.
00:54:37.888 Speaker 1 [chuckles]
00:54:38.088 Speaker 2 Like, I'm staring at my own eyelashes. Like, you don't normally get to do that. So
00:54:42.588 Speaker 2 was it something more mundane? How's that mundane? I don't know.
00:54:46.756 Speaker 1 What happens when you go to sleep? Can you turn it off?
00:54:50.816 Speaker 2 I can just turn it on by intention, so I can, I can already see, or I'll tap the
00:54:54.216 Speaker 2 side of my head to signal that I want to turn it on. It's just a trained thing. Um,
00:54:58.636 Speaker 2 and then when I wanna turn it off, I just do like this. But yeah, sometimes it, it
00:55:03.756 Speaker 2 will turn on with my eyes closed.
00:55:06.536 Speaker 1 Yeah.
00:55:06.856 Speaker 2 Most people train with an eye- with a blindfold because they don't want the, the cue
00:55:11.796 Speaker 2 to close their eyes and see through their eyelids-
00:55:13.456 Speaker 1 Hmm
00:55:13.456 Speaker 2 ... 'cause that freaks them out. But I'm lazy and adventurous, so [chuckles] this
00:55:18.655 Speaker 2 is, this is how I choose to do it. But yeah, sometimes it does turn on at night or
00:55:22.216 Speaker 2 I'll wake up in the middle of the night.
00:55:22.556 Speaker 1 God, I feel like we're living in a sci-fi novel right now. [laughs]
00:55:25.736 Speaker 2 You telling me, buddy. We didn't even get to the craziest parts. [chuckles]
00:55:29.296 Speaker 1 Oh, man. Well, you've talked, shared about, like, this relationship you've
00:55:32.996 Speaker 1 cultivated with your double. You wanna say something about that?
00:55:39.396 Speaker 1 Or where, where do you feel like the next, the next place you wanna go on your
00:55:42.676 Speaker 1 story?
00:55:44.676 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll go to the next events, which are probably starting
00:55:48.356 Speaker 2 November, December last year, uh, maybe a little before that. When we're in the
00:55:52.476 Speaker 2 techniques of Transcendence course, um, Darren King, you and I are in that course,
00:55:56.596 Speaker 2 things really start to pick up, especially the telepathy, and it feels very
00:56:00.376 Speaker 2 intrusive. Like, I am getting thoughts and feelings that are not mine. They are,
00:56:05.056 Speaker 2 [chuckles] they are... They don't make any sense. They're completely out of step,
00:56:09.636 Speaker 2 and it's a person. Uh, and later I'll discover it's more than one. You
00:56:15.576 Speaker 2 know, just take me at my word. This is what I experienced. I'm not telling anyone
00:56:18.516 Speaker 2 what, what is true, but this is what's happening to me, right? Uh, so it doesn't
00:56:21.736 Speaker 2 stop. I can't rule it out. I can't make it stop. Like, normally you can make your
00:56:26.096 Speaker 2 thoughts stop. I know how to meditate. Nothing stops it. Like, it's just...
00:56:29.336 Speaker 2 [chuckles] And the more, uh, this goes, it starts to pick up, especially as I start
00:56:34.556 Speaker 2 to do, uh, a lot of the stuff in that course, uh, which is again, mostly personal
00:56:39.736 Speaker 2 development, removing distortions, trying to see the world as it is, letting go of
00:56:43.396 Speaker 2 judgment. It doesn't seem like those things should give you more extrasensory
00:56:47.976 Speaker 2 perception, uh, but it does. Uh, that is what gives you [chuckles] extrasensory
00:56:53.076 Speaker 2 perception. Um, they're the same thing somehow. They're tied together. And the
00:56:58.136 Speaker 2 desire to know, right? You have to be curious and want to know on some level, which
00:57:01.656 Speaker 2 I did. So these things start reaching into my life or people, right? Um, and I don't
00:57:07.236 Speaker 2 know what to do with it. It's waking state, or I'll wake up, uh, in the middle of
00:57:11.136 Speaker 2 the night, um, in the middle of a conversation, or I'm having a dream and it
00:57:15.456 Speaker 2 starts-- I realize I'm, I become lucid, and it's like a quiz. Somebody's grilling me
00:57:19.756 Speaker 2 with questions. "What does that mean to you?" Like, they're training my discernment.
00:57:23.376 Speaker 2 "Why did that scare you? What did you think about that? How do you know?" And then I
00:57:26.976 Speaker 2 go, "What the hell? Who are you?" Like, I had been, like I was being puppeted, like,
00:57:31.576 Speaker 2 through a conversat- or just, like, sort of, like, in a malleable state until I
00:57:36.456 Speaker 2 became lucid, and then I start to panic. And then it's like I can feel the emotion,
00:57:40.396 Speaker 2 like an eye roll, like, "Ah, he's awake. All right. Ugh. Party's over. All right,
00:57:44.056 Speaker 2 everyone go home." That happens. It keeps happening. And I'm like, [chuckles] "Wait,
00:57:47.676 Speaker 2 where, who are you? What's going on?" And then it's in waking state, not just
00:57:52.196 Speaker 2 meditative state. But traditionally, it's like when my mind is wandering. I'm going
00:57:56.096 Speaker 2 for a run. I'm doing chores. Sitting in the hammock. "Hey, what's up?"
00:58:01.016 Speaker 2 [chuckles] So stuff like that. And I'm like, or I feel a strong emotion, and
00:58:06.956 Speaker 2 it's, like, completely out of tune with what I am, and somebody, like, wants to
00:58:12.756 Speaker 2 reach out to me, or they wanna talk to me, and I keep pushing them away. Like,
00:58:17.016 Speaker 2 naturally, as somebody who's [chuckles] ... I'm worried I'm going crazy, um, and I
00:58:21.736 Speaker 2 can't figure out what's wrong with me, and I'm treating it that way. And every time
00:58:25.016 Speaker 2 I push them away, it makes, I feel this intense, like, sadness, like a betrayal,
00:58:30.896 Speaker 2 like, uh, they're hurt. Like, they feel rejected. Uh, and but I don't feel that way.
00:58:36.156 Speaker 2 I'm like, "Ugh, go away. What is this? These aren't real thoughts. You're not real."
00:58:39.836 Speaker 2 And then I just feel this pain, like, "You jerk." Or, or just, like, "I feel sad
00:58:45.856 Speaker 2 that you've pushed me away. Like, I'm trying to talk to you." And you can only do
00:58:50.056 Speaker 2 that so many times before you're like, "Man, I feel... Like, if this is, there's any
00:58:54.116 Speaker 2 truth to this, like, I feel like the asshole." [chuckles] Like, I've already
00:58:57.156 Speaker 2 accepted that things are pretty much idealistic. Like, I'm not in my body. I'm
00:59:02.116 Speaker 2 something beyond it. Uh, I couldn't tell you what that was at that time. Why not?
00:59:07.716 Speaker 2 Why couldn't there be non-physical things? And of course, this is when they would
00:59:11.136 Speaker 2 start reaching out. Like, you've done the groundwork. You have the abilities. You've
00:59:14.396 Speaker 2 got enough world models that, like, I'm not gonna just have a psychotic break right
00:59:19.516 Speaker 2 away pushing me to the edge here. So I start to take it seriously, and the more I
00:59:24.516 Speaker 2 try to engage with it... But it's like a pretense. Uh, I'm gonna pretend to have a
00:59:28.096 Speaker 2 conversation in my head. I'll just act like it's just me. And the more I do, and the
00:59:32.576 Speaker 2 more I entertain it, the more real it becomes. Um, and that's pretty
00:59:38.616 Speaker 2 crazy. And then the experiences at night and meditation, they don't stop, uh, as you
00:59:44.536 Speaker 2 well know. So these are, like, a recurring cast of characters. And I, I wanna know
00:59:50.536 Speaker 2 at some point. I... A lot of this is intuitive. Like, I just have feelings that
00:59:54.096 Speaker 2 important things are happening or what it means. Like, intuition is starting to go
00:59:57.796 Speaker 2 off the charts because I'm leaning into it, and I just have a feeling that I know
01:00:02.136 Speaker 2 these people. I know them.
01:00:03.756 Speaker 1 Mm.
01:00:03.916 Speaker 2 I already have feelings about them, but I can't remember them. It's very difficult
01:00:07.916 Speaker 2 to describe how jarring that is. Like, "Oh, yeah, I know who you are." Like, I could
01:00:11.136 Speaker 2 tell you a whole, exactly how I feel about you and what our relationship is like,
01:00:15.256 Speaker 2 but I don't have any memories. I don't have, like, a lot of knowledge. I just have a
01:00:18.756 Speaker 2 felt sense of who they are, and it's familiar. That's very jarring. Um, and then I
01:00:24.416 Speaker 2 start to have liminal experiences, so waking up or falling asleep, that are
01:00:29.056 Speaker 2 extremely vivid. So not only do I see symbols and stuff in the visual field, this is
01:00:34.076 Speaker 2 not imaginary. I get those too, the imaginary field also, the imagined visuals. But,
01:00:39.096 Speaker 2 like-
01:00:39.276 Speaker 1 Mm
01:00:39.636 Speaker 2 ... close your eyes and, like, if, as if, like, you could see, you know, stare at
01:00:42.816 Speaker 2 something, you see an after image and it's painted in the blackness. I see stuff
01:00:46.156 Speaker 2 drawn like that. Sometimes the visuals snap into perfect clarity. I don't know how
01:00:50.776 Speaker 2 to do that consciously, but it-- that started happening too, [chuckles] and mostly
01:00:55.356 Speaker 2 symbolic stuff. Um, I realized, you know, we can communicate, but I'm in this weird
01:01:01.316 Speaker 2 state where I don't know what the hell's happening to me. I'm falling apart
01:01:03.896 Speaker 2 constantly, but it's, it's not bad. And then I start to have experiences at night
01:01:09.556 Speaker 2 where it's very vivid. Uh, I think the one experience that I mentioned to you is
01:01:14.856 Speaker 2 like the one story I'd tell before we move on to, you know, what's going on now,
01:01:19.916 Speaker 2 is that I had a sense I would talk to somebody at night. Um, I wanted to know,
01:01:26.036 Speaker 2 did I have a soul family? And I, I-- at, at this point, like I'm pretty on board for
01:01:29.796 Speaker 2 that's who this probably is. I think maybe they're spirit guides. Like, I don't
01:01:33.296 Speaker 2 know, man. Like, I'm just guessing, right? [chuckles] Deceased loved ones. Who, who
01:01:37.336 Speaker 2 knows? I don't know who they are. It's difficult, it's messy, it's very frustrating,
01:01:42.216 Speaker 2 this form of communication, 'cause it feels like your own thoughts. It feels like
01:01:45.356 Speaker 2 writing dialogue in a book a lot of the time.
01:01:48.376 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
01:01:48.456 Speaker 2 It's like I just know what the next line is. Like it's not like...
01:01:52.656 Speaker 2 It feels like you're talking to yourself, but when it's really strong, this is what
01:01:57.916 Speaker 2 people would call telepathy, basically, the thoughts just come, and it's a person
01:02:02.876 Speaker 2 talking to you. And so this one night, I have an experience where I have a sense I'm
01:02:07.696 Speaker 2 gonna meet somebody. And so I, I wake up around 2:00 a.m., and I'm aware of my
01:02:13.676 Speaker 2 body, and I'm sitting in bed, uh, and I'm awake. And,
01:02:20.216 Speaker 2 but I can feel drawn into my imagined visuals is a person and a scene. It's a white
01:02:25.836 Speaker 2 plain. There's no... There's a floor, but no ceiling and walls. And it's a girl, and
01:02:31.496 Speaker 2 she's standing there, and she's talking to me. You know, just a little small talk
01:02:35.296 Speaker 2 like, "Hey, what's up? Hey, good to see you," this basic intro stuff. And I'm awake.
01:02:41.316 Speaker 2 Like I'm not sleeping. Like I can move my body, and when I move my body or put my
01:02:45.116 Speaker 2 attention on my body, I start to wake up. Um, and so it starts to dissolve, kinda
01:02:50.296 Speaker 2 like a dream dissolves. And so I'm putting my focus on this, but it's crystal clear,
01:02:55.496 Speaker 2 and it's stable, and it's like somebody's drawing a scene and a person into your own
01:03:00.816 Speaker 2 imagination. Like it's happening. I'm not making it happen. You can imagine the
01:03:04.196 Speaker 2 scene on your own. Imagine that being forced into your imagination, and it's static.
01:03:10.136 Speaker 2 Like it's happening whether you want it to or not. I feel like I can shut it down
01:03:13.996 Speaker 2 and turn it off if I want to, but it's like a shared thing. And so I'm just
01:03:18.856 Speaker 2 standing... I don't have a body. I'm just like f-floating in front of this person,
01:03:24.016 Speaker 2 dumbfounded, and she's like talking to me. And I'm not saying anything, just like
01:03:29.076 Speaker 2 sort of knocking on the glass like, "Hey. Hello. I'm trying to talk to you. Can you
01:03:34.176 Speaker 2 answer me?" And then I just say, "Holy shit, this is real." Like, "You, you are
01:03:40.156 Speaker 2 actually real. Uh, I can see you now." Like I'm in a... I guess you could call this
01:03:45.756 Speaker 2 like astral projection. I don't know. I don't know the terms. Uh, but I was there.
01:03:50.396 Speaker 2 It was more than imagination, but less than a physical reality, right? It's like
01:03:56.836 Speaker 2 I was being given an imagined space, and I had my senses, but they were like
01:04:02.496 Speaker 2 50% volume, right? Um, and so I stop paying attention to my body, and I'm focused on
01:04:08.176 Speaker 2 this space. Now we're talking, and she's laughing, and, uh, I start to panic
01:04:14.056 Speaker 2 because [chuckles] this is very scary. Uh, she's like, "Don't do that." And I can
01:04:17.876 Speaker 2 feel the whole place start to like dissolve, like waking up from a nightmare. Um,
01:04:22.356 Speaker 2 and she's like, "Don't... No, you can't do that. Hey, you're fine. Don't, don't
01:04:25.516 Speaker 2 freak out. Just, just go with it. Nothing's hurting you. You're gonna be okay."
01:04:29.416 Speaker 1 Hmm.
01:04:30.016 Speaker 2 So I try to. Uh, I keep pausing mid-conversation because I'm expecting it to not be
01:04:35.416 Speaker 2 real. And so I'm in that state for about four hours, and, um, it's stable.
01:04:40.596 Speaker 2 [chuckles] I can ask whatever I want. I can do whatever I want, and we talk. And
01:04:46.196 Speaker 2 this is basically like a sibling, like a twin. You can imagine a twin that wasn't
01:04:50.316 Speaker 2 born.
01:04:51.296 Speaker 1 Hmm.
01:04:51.476 Speaker 2 Uh, just chose not to, to be born. But, "Hey, you can hear me now, so
01:04:57.476 Speaker 2 I miss you. Hello. [chuckles] Hey." Uh, and, um, yeah, I
01:05:03.476 Speaker 2 mean, uh, we talk about a lot of things. I have a lot of questions, as you might
01:05:06.476 Speaker 2 imagine, but I'm dumbstruck. Um, and then, of course, there's a second part of that
01:05:11.976 Speaker 2 story if you, you want me to tell it, but I think you get the gist. Like the... I
01:05:16.676 Speaker 2 get info dumped as well as conversation, just regular catching up. And yeah, this, I
01:05:22.436 Speaker 2 have a, like a soul family of sorts, not just human. But like, you have a life
01:05:27.296 Speaker 2 beyond your life as well, and I think everyone does. Um-
01:05:30.176 Speaker 1 Hmm
01:05:30.376 Speaker 2 ... people, if you've lived more than once, if you believe in reincarnation, you
01:05:33.316 Speaker 2 might have people from other lives. Like they're there, and they're not here, and
01:05:38.616 Speaker 2 once they can talk to you, yeah, they love you. They miss you. Of course, "Hey,
01:05:41.856 Speaker 2 you've g- you've got a mailbox now. I'm gonna send you messages." And that's what
01:05:46.676 Speaker 2 was happening.
01:05:47.996 Speaker 1 Hmm. Wow.
01:05:51.576 Speaker 1 Sounds like a, just like a major relief to kind of like meet this... You're kind of
01:05:56.856 Speaker 1 like getting all of these communications coming through and, um,
01:06:04.136 Speaker 1 wondering if they're real, wondering if they're really your own thoughts, and then
01:06:07.636 Speaker 1 finally having this experience where you visually meet this person and feel as if
01:06:12.856 Speaker 1 you're in their presence. You, you are in their presence. Your experience was you
01:06:17.096 Speaker 1 are in their presence.
01:06:18.976 Speaker 2 Yeah.
01:06:19.576 Speaker 1 But they're there all the time too, right? [chuckles] Like the... It's just like-
01:06:22.736 Speaker 2 Yeah
01:06:22.736 Speaker 1 ... in that liminal state, you were able to, uh, to meet them more
01:06:29.976 Speaker 1 fully.
01:06:31.176 Speaker 2 Yeah, I was a real participant, and it was more, like rich, a more vivid experience
01:06:35.416 Speaker 2 than just feeling like my own thoughts, which was great, uh, 'cause I, I, I needed
01:06:40.816 Speaker 2 that. I-- we are-- You-- A lot of this is about belief, and you have to, like Wile
01:06:45.996 Speaker 2 E. Coyote, you have to walk out on the edge and just like, "I, I believe I can move
01:06:49.116 Speaker 2 the tinfoil." And you have to really sit with that for a long time.
01:06:52.196 Speaker 1 Hmm.
01:06:52.216 Speaker 2 Like, "No, I know I can. I know I can." And then eventually One day it happens and
01:06:57.308 Speaker 2 you're like, "Holy crap, I knew..." We'll get to that in the poem at the end. Uh,
01:07:01.648 Speaker 2 but that's, um-
01:07:03.228 Speaker 1 Hmm
01:07:03.368 Speaker 2 ... it's, uh, it's happened to me so many times now with it. Every... But I still do
01:07:08.208 Speaker 2 it. I still like, "I don't know. Maybe I'm making it up. Maybe that didn't really
01:07:13.568 Speaker 2 happen." Like, "I'm just gonna try to hold this belief. I'm just gonna try to hold
01:07:17.188 Speaker 2 it. It's gonna happen."
01:07:18.728 Speaker 1 Hmm.
01:07:18.748 Speaker 2 This is how it works, I know. And then you go, it sounds easy, but
01:07:25.828 Speaker 2 then eventually it happens and you're like, "Holy crap. [chuckles] Okay. All right,
01:07:30.248 Speaker 2 cool." And for those wondering, like I've asked for real world validation, like
01:07:34.888 Speaker 2 definitions to terms I've never heard of before. I've, I will lose stuff around the
01:07:39.048 Speaker 2 house and just randomly go, "Ugh." It's like somebody's frustrated with me. Like,
01:07:43.788 Speaker 2 it's in the bottom drawer near the sink. I'm like, "That's not where I put that."
01:07:47.108 Speaker 2 Then like I'll look everywhere else around the house, like there's no way. I go and
01:07:50.508 Speaker 2 I'm like, "Fine." I go look in the bottom drawer near the sink and there it is, and
01:07:53.108 Speaker 2 there's just this sense of like laughter. And it's like, "Man."
01:07:57.568 Speaker 1 That would be helpful. I need, I need that. [chuckles] Having two young kids, like-
01:08:02.008 Speaker 1 [chuckles]
01:08:02.788 Speaker 2 Yeah, well-
01:08:03.208 Speaker 1 ... your mind is just like a, a chaos.
01:08:07.088 Speaker 2 Yeah. So, but it's not, you know, they're not always there. It's like-
01:08:10.248 Speaker 1 Yeah
01:08:10.988 Speaker 2 ... I don't know. It's just like, just checking in on you.
01:08:13.388 Speaker 1 Hmm.
01:08:13.408 Speaker 2 "Hey, what's up?" Uh, or they could always be there, right? There's not always
01:08:16.348 Speaker 2 presence.
01:08:16.368 Speaker 1 How does that shift your, like sense of self and autonomy-
01:08:19.648 Speaker 2 [chuckles]
01:08:20.788 Speaker 1 ... knowing that you're like always being watched essentially, right? [chuckles]
01:08:24.248 Speaker 2 Well, surprise, everyone's always being watched.
01:08:26.888 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, but we don't-
01:08:27.868 Speaker 2 Everyone's got a loved one or a guide or someone.
01:08:29.368 Speaker 1 We don't realize that we are, right? But now you know.
01:08:33.488 Speaker 2 Yeah. Like time is a thing here beyond like the 3D material linear space time world.
01:08:38.888 Speaker 2 Like there's no scarcity of time, and if somebody cares about you, their
01:08:44.548 Speaker 2 grandma, whatever, they're probably watching all the time. I got a crazy medium
01:08:48.008 Speaker 2 story where after the mindsight training, some of the ladies there were mediums. So
01:08:51.328 Speaker 2 I go... They're training, right? They, there's five old ladies, they bring me into a
01:08:54.948 Speaker 2 mediumship session. Like I've never done this before, not like this. Like cool, I'll
01:08:59.108 Speaker 2 just sit there. So they stare at me for 20 minutes over Zoom, and then they take
01:09:02.848 Speaker 2 turns reading impressions of whoever showed up, like deceased loved ones. And it's
01:09:06.948 Speaker 2 interesting, and I have this experience of, well, that was cool and all. It's kinda
01:09:11.708 Speaker 2 hard to place some of this stuff. Um, like, eh, that was neat, I guess. No dead
01:09:16.508 Speaker 2 ringers or anything. And um, but I just have this sense of like sadness that I
01:09:21.148 Speaker 2 didn't expect, and I realized I kinda just wanted them to tell me that they loved
01:09:25.788 Speaker 2 me. And instead I got like a lot of, you know, "This is about my life. Here's some
01:09:31.148 Speaker 2 advice," a little bit of lecturing.
01:09:32.948 Speaker 1 [chuckles]
01:09:33.768 Speaker 2 Like 'cause like, okay cool, but like that's all I really wanted was that you think
01:09:38.448 Speaker 2 about me and you care about me. I didn't know, I didn't know to ask for that.
01:09:42.088 Speaker 2 There's nobody else's fault.
01:09:43.928 Speaker 1 Yeah.
01:09:44.448 Speaker 2 And um, so after that happened, you know, I didn't expect to feel those emotions. I
01:09:50.028 Speaker 2 didn't really share that with anybody. It was just a private internal thing. Like,
01:09:53.568 Speaker 2 "Oh man, I feel a little hurt actually." [chuckles] I didn't think I would. Uh, and
01:09:57.788 Speaker 2 so the next morning I get, uh, a text message from somebody who was in that
01:10:01.808 Speaker 2 mindsight training, and she messages me and she says, "I was thinking about you when
01:10:05.628 Speaker 2 I was making my coffee this morning," 'cause we shared like the same like living
01:10:09.848 Speaker 2 space, uh, while we were training. And she's like, "I also had this
01:10:15.608 Speaker 2 really weird feeling that I needed to reach out to you. Something about grandmas and
01:10:20.448 Speaker 2 like loving you. Uh, does that mean anything to you? I'm sorry if it doesn't because
01:10:24.688 Speaker 2 I, I know that's totally out of the blue. We haven't talked in a long time. I just
01:10:28.548 Speaker 2 felt like I had to tell you that for some reason." And I'm like, "Oh my God,
01:10:32.768 Speaker 2 grandmas." So I mean, if you buy the story, like, I mean, that happened. Some
01:10:38.148 Speaker 2 grandma is like, "Oh no, this boy needs to know I love him." Like hold up. But go
01:10:42.048 Speaker 2 grab the nearest person you can possibly-
01:10:43.188 Speaker 1 I forgot to say, I had so much to say, I forgot to say the most important thing.
01:10:46.448 Speaker 1 [chuckles]
01:10:46.968 Speaker 2 Well, I think it's more like, "Oh, you don't think that we-"
01:10:49.808 Speaker 1 Oh.
01:10:50.168 Speaker 2 "You didn't know that?" Like-
01:10:51.288 Speaker 1 Gotcha
01:10:51.368 Speaker 2 ... "Well, you need to know that." No, this is much more like, "You, I'm gonna make
01:10:54.708 Speaker 2 sure you know we love you."
01:10:56.028 Speaker 1 Hmm.
01:10:56.368 Speaker 2 And so I just, that's, if that's not such a grandma thing, but I get validation like
01:11:01.628 Speaker 2 this all the time. I don't get a lot of it because
01:11:07.008 Speaker 2 I think it's counterproductive.
01:11:08.548 Speaker 1 Hmm.
01:11:09.068 Speaker 2 And that's supposed, you're supposed to start trusting, trusting your non-primary
01:11:13.468 Speaker 2 physical senses more.
01:11:16.607 Speaker 2 But yeah, so I mean, all this stuff is what happens to me, um, at this stage, and I
01:11:22.168 Speaker 2 guess, you know, we can round it out with that-
01:11:24.428 Speaker 1 Yeah
01:11:24.448 Speaker 2 ... where I'm at now, if that's okay with you.
01:11:26.468 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, this feels like a good place to begin landing. I'm curious-
01:11:30.628 Speaker 2 Yeah
01:11:30.648 Speaker 1 ... to hear like, you know, having shared all of that and gone through this process
01:11:34.268 Speaker 1 of reflecting, what meaning do you make of your journey?
01:11:38.468 Speaker 2 Well, I never expected this. What a plot twist of a life. I like to think of my life
01:11:43.808 Speaker 2 as a story now at this point. It, uh, a co-created story, [chuckles] but less
01:11:49.508 Speaker 2 attached to events. Um, I think that's a better way of looking at it. I
01:11:55.488 Speaker 2 realize the power of intention and that we can kind of have almost any experience we
01:12:00.408 Speaker 2 want within reason. You know, we're in a place where there are rules and order and
01:12:05.508 Speaker 2 physics, and that's, that's good. That's like a different thing. Like you're not
01:12:09.288 Speaker 2 gonna be able to snap your fingers and make a giant block of gold appear. Well, I
01:12:13.048 Speaker 2 mean, probably not. I, I don't... And that's good because it would defeat the
01:12:17.128 Speaker 2 purpose of a lot of the re- reason we're here. And so I think a stage of development
01:12:22.768 Speaker 2 I'm in now is I have everything I want in life for the most part. I'm happy, I'm
01:12:27.988 Speaker 2 healthy, I'm stable, and that's really when this started to pick up. And now I have
01:12:33.148 Speaker 2 a sense of why am I here? Both me authoring why I'm here, but also
01:12:40.128 Speaker 2 being receptive to more of being used like a tool, like in a sort of pre-agreement.
01:12:44.968 Speaker 2 You could call that a calling or a purpose, but a scribe. They actually kind of line
01:12:49.388 Speaker 2 up, and I feel like intuitively, much more directly, like literally just being told
01:12:55.128 Speaker 2 sometimes, "Yeah, why are you here?" Um, but it's more like a menu, like it's an
01:13:00.188 Speaker 2 offer. Here's what you're good at, here's what the world needs. Do this. Like, uh,
01:13:04.816 Speaker 2 just, uh, but mostly it's an intuitive sense. So I'm moving into a stage where I
01:13:09.796 Speaker 2 have a feeling like I know what I want out of life, and now I'm more interested in
01:13:14.896 Speaker 2 helping what you do with the good thing. Like, all of this is awesome. A surprise,
01:13:19.176 Speaker 2 like, uh, [chuckles] for those who are unaware, like, you're not gonna die when
01:13:23.576 Speaker 2 you're dead. You get to live forever, and reality is way, way better than you
01:13:26.816 Speaker 2 thought it was, and you can have almost anything you want.
01:13:29.136 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
01:13:29.316 Speaker 2 So, uh, there's the gift. In fact, uh, [chuckles] one of these journals is
01:13:35.576 Speaker 2 me waking up in the middle of the night, somebody very surprised, uh, like a
01:13:39.916 Speaker 2 surprise party and just like, "What is this thing?" Ha- telling me happy birthday. I
01:13:45.256 Speaker 2 think, uh, like, "What are you talking about?" [chuckles] It's like, "Well, you're
01:13:48.576 Speaker 2 about to get a gift," and then it's like, "What's the gift?" "It's the gift of
01:13:52.176 Speaker 2 everything. You're about to learn that it's all awesome, and you can have almost
01:13:57.076 Speaker 2 anything you want, and you're not gonna die." Like, "Oh, cool." Uh, but now I know
01:14:02.156 Speaker 2 it, right? I, I know it on a deeper level. Uh, so life is more playful and more,
01:14:07.016 Speaker 2 "What can I do with this?" Right? "How can I have fun? How can I live
01:14:12.896 Speaker 2 into this? How can I do something meaningful?" And that's sort of the stage I'm in.
01:14:18.316 Speaker 2 I feel like I... in, I'm in the rarefied position of, from my perspective, kinda
01:14:24.176 Speaker 2 understanding the 80/20 of how reality and consciousness works and who I am and
01:14:30.196 Speaker 2 f- how it all works, the big questions. I wrote yesterday in a journal that I feel
01:14:35.356 Speaker 2 like I have satisfactory and first-hand validated
01:14:41.256 Speaker 2 answers to
01:14:43.736 Speaker 2 all the big questions I've ever come up with. That is a very strange position to be
01:14:48.036 Speaker 2 in as a human being. [chuckles] Um, well, now that those boxes are checked, I guess
01:14:52.896 Speaker 2 I'm just gonna have fun and try to help other people have fun too. Uh, so that's
01:14:56.916 Speaker 2 where I'm at.
01:14:58.296 Speaker 1 Hmm.
01:15:00.016 Speaker 2 I recommend it.
01:15:01.136 Speaker 1 I really like that you said reality is way better than you think it is. [chuckles]
01:15:05.776 Speaker 2 Yeah.
01:15:06.176 Speaker 1 I love that.
01:15:06.436 Speaker 2 And it keeps happening.
01:15:07.816 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, and so much of your story just testifies to that. So I'm-
01:15:12.436 Speaker 2 Hmm. Yeah
01:15:12.936 Speaker 1 ... you know, thanking you for bringing that up and-
01:15:15.636 Speaker 2 Sure. [clears throat]
01:15:16.956 Speaker 1 If anyone listening is moving through their own rupture, what would you like them to
01:15:20.476 Speaker 1 hear?
01:15:22.656 Speaker 2 I would say that your thoughts, emotions, feelings, beliefs are,
01:15:29.776 Speaker 2 um, not just-- They are not you, so chill out. Uh, they're part of an
01:15:35.656 Speaker 2 experience, but they are also what's controlling what you get to a large degree,
01:15:41.276 Speaker 2 eventually, right? It's y- imagination. All of these things that I treated as
01:15:46.436 Speaker 2 secondary or ephemeral or just like icing on a reality cake, turns out they are what
01:15:51.936 Speaker 2 determines the cake, like eventually. Think of it as like steering something very
01:15:56.616 Speaker 2 slowly, but sometimes not so slowly. And the more you can lean into that, the more
01:16:01.196 Speaker 2 you'll get what you want. Like, you're always creating your own reality to a degree,
01:16:05.736 Speaker 2 or largely influencing here, uh, eventually creating, um, whole cloth.
01:16:11.716 Speaker 2 And that, um, the good news is you were, you have inherited a
01:16:18.216 Speaker 2 unconditionally loving and completely connected universe that wants nothing but to
01:16:24.196 Speaker 2 give you everything you want and cares about you and fundamentally, like no
01:16:28.616 Speaker 2 conditions. Uh, it didn't have to be this good. Uh, it doesn't always feel that way
01:16:33.996 Speaker 2 from our current seat, um, but we're playing on hard mode right now. And, um,
01:16:39.836 Speaker 2 don't worry so much because the big things are already sorted out. You already
01:16:44.616 Speaker 2 inherited, like, everything you could ever want, and even if you screw up here
01:16:49.236 Speaker 2 completely, it doesn't really matter. You're already good [chuckles] forever. So
01:16:54.676 Speaker 2 don't worry too much. And if that doesn't feel true yet, the advice I keep getting
01:17:00.436 Speaker 2 over and over again every time I hit a moment where it's like, "Holy crap, like,
01:17:05.096 Speaker 2 what is reality? How do I go to work tomorrow? I can see through my eyelids, and
01:17:09.856 Speaker 2 [chuckles] I'm talking to people in my head that appear to be real. Like, I don't
01:17:12.576 Speaker 2 know. How do I keep going? Like, how do I integrate this? Like, how do I make sense
01:17:16.716 Speaker 2 of anything? What is even real anymore?" The answer is just keep going.
01:17:22.076 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.
01:17:22.276 Speaker 2 If you can do that, if you can
01:17:26.076 Speaker 2 somehow get yourself to a positive orientation
01:17:30.256 Speaker 2 and just keep going,
01:17:32.796 Speaker 2 you'll make it. Like you'll, you'll find your own experiences. You have your own
01:17:38.116 Speaker 2 revelations. You'll have your own... It won't be the same as mine. We're all
01:17:42.416 Speaker 2 different. And so you get your own personalized experience, um, and it'll keep
01:17:47.876 Speaker 2 happening. The magic will be in the world as long as you expect it to be there and
01:17:52.236 Speaker 2 as long as you keep playing.
01:17:53.876 Speaker 1 Hmm.
01:17:53.936 Speaker 2 So hopefully that's helpful. Just don't stop playing.
01:17:57.256 Speaker 1 Hmm. Don't stop playing. I dig it.
01:18:01.796 Speaker 1 Do you have any, um, anywhere people can find out about your work or your writing,
01:18:05.996 Speaker 1 your thinking?
01:18:08.396 Speaker 2 Yeah. I have-- I write fiction, but it's not super relevant to this. Um, but I, I've
01:18:13.916 Speaker 2 been trying to write about my experiences or distilling, I think, important lessons
01:18:18.296 Speaker 2 on a blog. That's, that was the differentcompass.ink. I don't get anything out of
01:18:23.616 Speaker 2 this. It's just read it. Uh, I don't need anything. I'm in the, a wonderful position
01:18:29.116 Speaker 2 of I've got what I need. I just wanna-
01:18:31.156 Speaker 1 Good
01:18:31.456 Speaker 2 ... have good times with good people. Um, so by all means, if you found this useful,
01:18:37.076 Speaker 2 please go read that. Uh, but you kinda already have everything you need. This is the
01:18:40.936 Speaker 2 advice I give to everyone else. But if I can help you make sense of it or, uh,
01:18:44.256 Speaker 2 Joshua can, by all means, borrow and cheat and steal. I've cheated every opportunity
01:18:49.276 Speaker 2 I get.
01:18:49.616 Speaker 1 [chuckles]
01:18:50.176 Speaker 2 Why wait in line?
01:18:51.976 Speaker 1 Yeah.
01:18:53.816 Speaker 1 All right. Thank you, Steven. Um, as we're closing, I'm just like
01:19:00.336 Speaker 1 feeling gratitude and, you know, awe in hearing your story and reinvigorated on my
01:19:06.376 Speaker 1 own path and practice. And, um, so many of the things you've brought into
01:19:12.788 Speaker 1 the circle that we've initiated together and, you know, in our conversations have
01:19:18.108 Speaker 1 motivated me to, you know, try new things and go in new paths. And every time I
01:19:23.008 Speaker 1 close my eyes now, I'm like, I tell myself, "I can see without my eyes." And I'm
01:19:27.468 Speaker 1 just-
01:19:27.768 Speaker 2 Mm.
01:19:28.248 Speaker 1 ... you know, even as the-- at the end of my meditation, I've been trying to affirm
01:19:32.168 Speaker 1 that, remember to affirm that. And, uh-
01:19:34.248 Speaker 2 Heck yeah.
01:19:34.908 Speaker 1 So I'm excited to know you and be inspired on the path, the path that you're, you're
01:19:40.028 Speaker 1 treading your, for your own life. Yeah, in a couple words, like, how are you
01:19:43.968 Speaker 1 checking out today?
01:19:45.808 Speaker 2 I'm just grateful to have fellow people to be on the journey with, you know? And,
01:19:50.688 Speaker 2 um,
01:19:52.448 Speaker 2 I just hope that-- I don't want anyone to ever... Inspired is, is exactly what I
01:19:57.848 Speaker 2 hope for, because I kinda just want other people to go get their own version of
01:20:01.308 Speaker 2 this. It's waiting for them. You don't have to live in mundane reality anymore. If
01:20:05.148 Speaker 2 you just ask, just say, "Hey, I want my version of this," and then take whatever
01:20:09.588 Speaker 2 breadcrumb comes your way, and something will, and just keep following those. The
01:20:14.668 Speaker 2 universe, the universe will play with you however you wanna frame it. Um, it'll give
01:20:19.608 Speaker 2 you the next step. Keep following those steps, and you can have your own version of
01:20:24.208 Speaker 2 this, and I, I hope that everyone does that, you included. 'Cause I, I wanna live in
01:20:28.628 Speaker 2 that world with other people. Who wants to do it alone? That's no fun.
01:20:31.768 Speaker 1 Let's all become yogis with yogic superpowers, flying around-
01:20:36.088 Speaker 2 Yeah, whatever your version is, yeah
01:20:36.668 Speaker 1 ... communicating with our mind, and build a world like that. [laughs]
01:20:41.628 Speaker 2 Sure.
01:20:41.648 Speaker 1 That's a fun-
01:20:41.888 Speaker 2 Whatever you want
01:20:42.248 Speaker 1 ... that's a fun world. I, I wanna live it. Cool. Thank you, Steven. Um, we always
01:20:47.328 Speaker 1 like to close with a little offering from the guest, so if you have something,
01:20:51.288 Speaker 1 please share it with us.
01:20:53.568 Speaker 2 Cool. Um, I did select something. I wrote a poem. I don't usually like poetry
01:20:58.788 Speaker 2 because it makes me do too much work, and that stresses me out. Like, did I
01:21:02.328 Speaker 2 understand it correctly? I don't know. So I don't actually enjoy it because it's,
01:21:06.988 Speaker 2 I'm too psyched out about it. But I decided to write one, um, and this happened
01:21:11.668 Speaker 2 after one of, one of many things that I, I never thought could actually be true
01:21:17.588 Speaker 2 ended up being true. So that's the context to know. Uh, it's, the poem itself is
01:21:22.208 Speaker 2 called To Know.
01:21:25.648 Speaker 2 To know that you really are the person you hoped you'd be, that the things you told
01:21:31.388 Speaker 2 yourself you didn't need were fundamental truths from a changed heart and not the
01:21:36.808 Speaker 2 lamentations of a spurned one. When this life offers you opportunity to prove,
01:21:42.828 Speaker 2 you will feel that solitary triumph. No one knows if the tension held so long
01:21:49.348 Speaker 2 even you forgot it was there. It was true. Oh,
01:21:55.388 Speaker 2 it was true all along. This is what it feels like to know they
01:22:01.388 Speaker 2 were not just words.
01:22:02.908 Speaker 1 [outro music] Thank you
01:22:08.768 Speaker 1 again for joining us in this circle of ruptures and roots. These stories remind us
01:22:13.108 Speaker 1 that rupture isn't the end. It's where roots begin to reach once more for life. If
01:22:17.988 Speaker 1 this conversation touched something in you, then I invite you to sit with it, let it
01:22:22.308 Speaker 1 ripple, and maybe share it with someone who might also feel the resonance. This work
01:22:27.568 Speaker 1 is offered in the spirit of the gift. If you feel called to honor the energy and
01:22:31.748 Speaker 1 commitment that goes into creating this podcast, then I invite you to become a paid
01:22:36.008 Speaker 1 subscriber on Substack at
01:22:38.028 Speaker 1 gospelsofrupture.substack.com. Until next time, may you
01:22:43.968 Speaker 1 find nourishment in the roots beneath you and courage in the ruptures that open your
01:22:47.928 Speaker 1 path.
01:22:48.328 Speaker 1 [outro music]