Not Your Job: The Art of Defiance User-supplied captions; uncorrected and not audio-verified. [00:00:03.566 --> 00:00:08.287] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Everybody, thanks for coming to this talk. Let me share my screen. [00:00:08.287 --> 00:00:09.766] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Talk over the slides. [00:00:12.246 --> 00:00:12.886] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Um... [00:00:13.726 --> 00:00:14.406] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Where'd it go? [00:00:16.646 --> 00:00:16.806] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Mm. [00:00:18.806 --> 00:00:19.366] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) There it is. [00:00:26.726 --> 00:00:27.126] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Cool. [00:00:28.166 --> 00:00:30.006] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So hello, I am Steven Schrembeck. [00:00:31.086 --> 00:00:36.335] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) A software developer here. And this talk is not your job. Well, no, [00:00:36.335 --> 00:00:36.566] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) no. [00:00:37.846 --> 00:00:40.993] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Hey, listen, there we go. The art of defiance, [00:00:40.993 --> 00:00:43.939] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) defiant PowerPoint presentation. This talk, [00:00:43.939 --> 00:00:47.688] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) like the last talk I did for the Q3 Engineering Summit, [00:00:47.688 --> 00:00:50.969] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) which I was very happy to do, was well received, [00:00:50.969 --> 00:00:54.986] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) so I figured I would do something spiritually similar here. [00:00:54.986 --> 00:00:56.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This is like the last one. [00:00:56.846 --> 00:00:59.993] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) deep meaning at work. This one is half philosophy, [00:00:59.993 --> 00:01:04.990] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) half practical advice on how to change your own behavior, how to change culture, [00:01:00.326 --> 00:01:00.566] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) Yeah. [00:01:04.990 --> 00:01:07.767] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) get what you want at work, do better things. [00:01:07.767 --> 00:01:10.667] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And it's seen through the lens of engineering, [00:01:10.667 --> 00:01:14.060] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but it is not specifically and only about engineering. [00:01:14.060 --> 00:01:17.206] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So that is what I'm assuming this is for, but it's [00:01:17.366 --> 00:01:21.637] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) more broadly applicable. All right, so let's talk about what this is about. [00:01:21.637 --> 00:01:24.896] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Take about 30 minutes, and then we'll leave about 10 plus [00:01:24.896 --> 00:01:28.548] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) minutes for questions at the end. And yeah, we'll leave Q&A. [00:01:28.548 --> 00:01:32.088] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And it's really more of a conversation. If you think I'm dumb, [00:01:32.088 --> 00:01:35.123] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you don't like the ideas, or you have your own ideas, [00:01:35.123 --> 00:01:36.246] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I'd love to hear it. [00:01:36.286 --> 00:01:40.546] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) That's just as valid as a question. But until then, I'm going to talk. [00:01:40.546 --> 00:01:44.206] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So what is this about? This is about how to thoughtfully use [00:01:44.206 --> 00:01:48.406] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Defiance in order to improve our product development, our operations, [00:01:48.406 --> 00:01:53.026] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) anything about how the business works. Improve the quality of life, that is, [00:01:53.026 --> 00:01:56.086] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I mentioned this in the last showing of this talk. [00:01:56.726 --> 00:02:01.096] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Making things like better and making people want to be here is totally valid. [00:02:01.096 --> 00:02:04.738] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) As long as it's not like detracting from other important things, [00:02:04.738 --> 00:02:08.043] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you have a license to do that. So this is also about that, [00:02:08.043 --> 00:02:10.564] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) making it more fun, wanting to come to work, [00:02:10.564 --> 00:02:14.206] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) enjoying what you're doing. In my mind, nobody's measuring that, [00:02:14.206 --> 00:02:15.886] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but it does matter. All right. [00:02:16.086 --> 00:02:21.977] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So beyond the actual process, hey Rick, I think your mic is unmuted just in case [00:02:16.566 --> 00:02:16.726] Wallace, Steve (CAI - Texas) Yes. [00:02:21.977 --> 00:02:24.086] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you sneeze or start coughing. [00:02:25.486 --> 00:02:27.686] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) My bad. Keep going. You're doing great. [00:02:26.326 --> 00:02:27.046] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You're gonna... [00:02:28.326 --> 00:02:29.046] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I would let you know. [00:02:29.286 --> 00:02:29.846] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) Yeah, yeah. [00:02:30.286 --> 00:02:30.486] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Um... [00:02:31.686 --> 00:02:34.778] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Talking about how roles and the definition of roles, [00:02:34.778 --> 00:02:39.154] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) obviously from an engineering perspective, change in a changing landscape. [00:02:39.154 --> 00:02:43.587] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Everything is changing all the time. So this is the last one was more about [00:02:43.587 --> 00:02:48.021] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) how do I enjoy my job and my life? How do I find meaning in what I'm doing, [00:02:48.021 --> 00:02:50.646] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) whatever I'm doing, despite what's going on? [00:02:51.006 --> 00:02:55.858] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This is much more about how am I involved in it? Things are going to change. [00:02:55.858 --> 00:02:59.702] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) What is my place in this? And how should I think about this? [00:02:59.702 --> 00:03:02.978] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) How do I do it? And then we'll sort of take it even [00:03:02.978 --> 00:03:07.830] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) beyond that and more out into the rest of your life, which we'll talk about. [00:03:07.830 --> 00:03:09.846] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And then of course, the last and [00:03:09.926 --> 00:03:13.467] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Fairly important part is, yeah, how not to do this wrong and get fired [00:03:13.467 --> 00:03:16.708] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and actually just make things worse. You know, well-intentioned, [00:03:16.708 --> 00:03:20.399] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but you're actually, you're causing chaos, so you're making things worse. [00:03:20.399 --> 00:03:24.538] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So we're going to talk about some of the strategies and the risks and how to think [00:03:24.538 --> 00:03:26.981] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) about this. So I'm going to give you this formal [00:03:26.981 --> 00:03:28.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) warning. Everybody's an adult here. [00:03:29.126 --> 00:03:33.931] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This is advice. Take it or leave it, but how you apply it is on you. [00:03:33.931 --> 00:03:38.944] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Don't go doing some things that see when I could do this and, you know, [00:03:38.944 --> 00:03:40.406] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) it's not my fault. So [00:03:41.646 --> 00:03:45.759] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) be wise and you know, let's go from there. I'm not going to give you a whole lot [00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:46.926] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) more hedging than that. [00:03:48.166 --> 00:03:48.566] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Cool. [00:03:49.766 --> 00:03:53.526] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So, let's start with a simple scenario. This talk is in two parts. [00:03:55.046 --> 00:03:59.653] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Part one is, this is a terrible idea. And it follows the scenario of you are a [00:03:59.653 --> 00:04:03.384] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) software developer working on an application team of some kind. [00:04:03.384 --> 00:04:05.366] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You have received a piece of work. [00:04:06.806 --> 00:04:12.878] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And in your own head, you think, that's like a really terrible idea. [00:04:12.878 --> 00:04:16.486] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) For some reason, this is not good. And... [00:04:17.726 --> 00:04:21.061] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) When it's on technical grounds, we generally have the domain, [00:04:21.061 --> 00:04:24.610] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) we have the trump card, right? Everybody's got a trump card. Now, [00:04:24.610 --> 00:04:28.052] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you know, if you're a doctor, you get to pull the trump card on [00:04:28.052 --> 00:04:32.354] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) somebody because it's a medical issue. They're not going to be giving you legal [00:04:32.354 --> 00:04:36.441] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) advice. In the same way, of course, we have a technical expertise and we're [00:04:36.441 --> 00:04:40.366] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) expected to push back for technical things. This talk is not about that. [00:04:40.886 --> 00:04:44.994] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Not that people don't need help with that; these ideas apply there, [00:04:44.994 --> 00:04:50.007] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but what we're talking about is the gray area just beyond a job role, where, okay, [00:04:50.007 --> 00:04:54.235] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you want me to remove this thing, or you want me to add this feature, [00:04:54.235 --> 00:04:58.886] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you want me to make this change beyond just our technical reasons, we are... [00:04:59.486 --> 00:05:03.094] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) full, complete, rich human beings with lots of knowledge, [00:05:03.094 --> 00:05:07.885] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) far beyond you know how to make some software do a thing, according to spec. [00:05:07.885 --> 00:05:13.048] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I'm of the opinion that treating yourself as a cog, a worker on the assembly line, [00:05:13.048 --> 00:05:18.087] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) is a terrible idea as a knowledge worker. There is so much we are leaving on the [00:05:18.087 --> 00:05:19.206] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) table. But anyway. [00:05:19.246 --> 00:05:22.196] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) All right, so you get the work in the hypothetical. [00:05:22.196 --> 00:05:24.691] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) What do you do? Do you keep it to yourself? [00:05:24.691 --> 00:05:28.151] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Do you try to push back, at risk to yourself or your career? [00:05:28.151 --> 00:05:30.646] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Do you make change? How do you go about it? [00:05:31.806 --> 00:05:35.484] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Should you? And the entire purpose of this talk is to [00:05:35.484 --> 00:05:39.774] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) say yes, with multiple asterisks after it, I think you should, [00:05:39.774 --> 00:05:44.813] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and we desperately need you to. At every level, the company, the species, [00:05:44.813 --> 00:05:48.150] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) we all need people who are willing to push back. [00:05:48.150 --> 00:05:51.486] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And this is especially important in engineering. [00:05:51.686 --> 00:05:55.206] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) because we're often the last line of defense. We're the last thing, [00:05:55.206 --> 00:05:59.139] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) we're the last people to see something. And we often have the most context, [00:05:59.139 --> 00:06:02.451] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) not only on how it works, but we spend a lot of time with these [00:06:02.451 --> 00:06:06.539] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) things, literally working with them. So we have a perspective that nobody else [00:06:06.539 --> 00:06:10.058] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) does. If we don't speak up, there's a very good chance nobody will. [00:06:10.058 --> 00:06:10.886] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) We are the last. [00:06:10.966 --> 00:06:16.037] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) line in the immune system. We, I believe, have a moral and greater, [00:06:16.037 --> 00:06:22.375] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) at least to the company or our work ethic, to speak up if we believe something isn't [00:06:22.375 --> 00:06:28.564] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) good for the product, for the customer, for the business goals, whatever. Morally, [00:06:28.564 --> 00:06:30.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) ethically, that's also valid. [00:06:31.966 --> 00:06:35.863] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) All right, so let's get into it. We'll start right away with a pretty [00:06:35.863 --> 00:06:39.258] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) sensational headline. You don't have to do what you're told. [00:06:39.258 --> 00:06:42.765] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Here's a couple questions to think about. Who do you work for? [00:06:42.765 --> 00:06:46.494] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Where does your loyalty belong? Why? And do you feel clear on why? [00:06:46.494 --> 00:06:48.999] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This is not obvious. When there is conflict, [00:06:48.999 --> 00:06:51.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you've received this hypothetical piece of work. [00:06:51.846 --> 00:06:54.995] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This is not hypothetical for most people. It could even just be, [00:06:54.995 --> 00:06:58.048] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) this is a waste of time. We've been doing this stuff for three [00:06:58.048 --> 00:07:01.681] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) months. You're giving me more of this? Like, nobody knows if it's working. [00:07:01.681 --> 00:07:04.685] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Why are we doing this? Whether or not you've said anything is [00:07:04.685 --> 00:07:07.301] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) immaterial at this point. Where does your loyalty go? [00:07:07.301 --> 00:07:09.917] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) That matters A lot. Is it to your product or business [00:07:09.917 --> 00:07:11.806] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) partners who are asking for the change? [00:07:11.926 --> 00:07:15.263] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Is it to the customers? You know, damn the torpedoes. Like, no, [00:07:15.263 --> 00:07:18.861] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I'm here for them. This is what they want. It's clear. Look at this. [00:07:18.861 --> 00:07:21.937] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I'm here for them. And you're willing to push back against [00:07:21.937 --> 00:07:25.899] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) your peers. Is it for, you know, your management, the technical leadership? [00:07:25.899 --> 00:07:29.862] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Are they where your loyalty goes? Do you have loyalty to high level company [00:07:29.862 --> 00:07:31.686] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) goals over low level company goals? [00:07:32.166 --> 00:07:34.838] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Do you have loyalty to your friends and your relationships at the company? [00:07:34.838 --> 00:07:36.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It's not worth burning the bridge. It's not obvious. [00:07:38.166 --> 00:07:42.904] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I can tell you what my answer is. You're welcome to draw from that if you [00:07:42.904 --> 00:07:45.849] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) want to. But it's important that you know why [00:07:45.849 --> 00:07:49.371] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you're here and who you're working for. And my answer, [00:07:49.371 --> 00:07:52.764] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) which I more or less said in this last talk as well, [00:07:52.764 --> 00:07:58.014] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) is I work for myself and what I believe is right. I work for meaning and purpose. [00:07:58.014 --> 00:07:59.166] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I need a paycheck. [00:07:59.406 --> 00:08:02.509] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) A paycheck is necessary, but it's not sufficient. For me, [00:08:02.509 --> 00:08:05.450] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) this is my choice. I choose to do work that I think is [00:08:05.450 --> 00:08:09.141] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) meaningful and valuable. Not always. I know. I got to do stuff that, [00:08:09.141 --> 00:08:11.975] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) at least from a utility perspective, I don't get it. [00:08:11.975 --> 00:08:14.863] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I don't have to get everything. That's not the point. [00:08:14.863 --> 00:08:18.286] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) But when I see something that I really think could be improved, [00:08:18.966 --> 00:08:21.046] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I think is wrong for some reason. [00:08:22.126 --> 00:08:26.217] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Then it gets interesting because my loyalty is to what I think is right and [00:08:26.217 --> 00:08:28.962] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) effective. I have no real love for used cars in my [00:08:28.962 --> 00:08:33.052] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) case in this part of the organization, but I do care about doing good work, [00:08:33.052 --> 00:08:36.120] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I care about people, I care about doing something that's [00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:39.403] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) effective and provides value. All those things matter to me, [00:08:39.403 --> 00:08:41.286] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and that is what I'm of service to. [00:08:41.766 --> 00:08:46.212] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) But you pick your own thing, you know? Choose your own adventure, it's your life. [00:08:46.212 --> 00:08:48.326] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) But you're a human being and not a cog. [00:08:49.446 --> 00:08:53.233] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Just don't forget that. And we need you to not be a cog because [00:08:53.233 --> 00:08:57.731] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) we need to innovate. We need to change. We need what you bring to the table [00:08:57.731 --> 00:09:01.636] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) beyond your technical expertise. We'll get into that in a second. [00:09:01.636 --> 00:09:05.660] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So the art of small defiance. So the dark secret of all engineering [00:09:05.660 --> 00:09:10.453] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) professions is that this is actually kind of a moot point because turns out if a [00:09:10.453 --> 00:09:13.766] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) lot of people think an idea is bad or dumb or wasteful, [00:09:14.406 --> 00:09:14.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Um... [00:09:15.766 --> 00:09:18.677] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Everybody drags their feet. Like, yeah, you estimate wrong. [00:09:18.677 --> 00:09:21.830] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You prioritize one thing over and over. This is a favorite tool. [00:09:21.830 --> 00:09:25.953] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It's not clear which of these four things we should be doing. Well, I guarantee you, [00:09:25.953 --> 00:09:28.766] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) 10 times out of 10, people are going to pick the one that [00:09:28.766 --> 00:09:32.162] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) they think is actually more valuable or will give them some learning, [00:09:32.162 --> 00:09:34.926] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) like some sort of value they're going to derive from it. [00:09:35.446 --> 00:09:38.156] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) every single time. It always comes out somewhere. [00:09:38.156 --> 00:09:42.058] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) If nobody says anything or nobody does anything and it's not effective, [00:09:42.058 --> 00:09:43.846] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) it continues to be not effective. [00:09:45.126 --> 00:09:48.976] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Everybody knows that even if you're an engineer and technically that's not your [00:09:48.976 --> 00:09:51.237] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) job, you have the ability to drag your feet on [00:09:51.237 --> 00:09:54.605] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) anything or make anything poorly or take too long or deprioritize it. [00:09:54.605 --> 00:09:57.299] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And that's always true. That's not a nice thing to say. [00:09:57.299 --> 00:10:00.571] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It's not an easy thing to say, but that's how human beings operate. [00:10:00.571 --> 00:10:04.372] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It doesn't matter what the job role is, by the way. It's not just engineering. [00:10:04.372 --> 00:10:05.286] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) That's always true. [00:10:06.166 --> 00:10:09.852] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) If it's foolish, or it doesn't make sense, or it's not effective, [00:10:09.852 --> 00:10:12.086] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) it's always going to come out somewhere. [00:10:14.006 --> 00:10:17.314] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So you're going to pay one way or another. The only real decision here is whether [00:10:17.314 --> 00:10:18.846] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you're going to do something about it. [00:10:21.366 --> 00:10:24.911] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and address it directly. All right, so now we're going to talk about this [00:10:24.911 --> 00:10:27.115] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) part. I'll keep talking about this throughout [00:10:27.115 --> 00:10:29.126] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and in Q&A as well, or the discussion. [00:10:31.126 --> 00:10:36.886] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Okay, there's a lot of asterisks here. And the couple I want to... [00:10:37.846 --> 00:10:41.195] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) really focus on are one, you need to be somebody who is providing [00:10:41.195 --> 00:10:44.290] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) more value than you're taking away, like significantly more. [00:10:44.290 --> 00:10:47.132] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It's not a good idea to do this, to start pushing back, [00:10:47.132 --> 00:10:48.806] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) especially outside your job role. [00:10:50.086 --> 00:10:53.046] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) If you're not somebody who is already... [00:10:53.926 --> 00:10:57.124] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) being useful, right? You need to be able to do what you're [00:10:57.124 --> 00:11:00.810] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) told well first before you not try to do what you're not told well. [00:11:00.810 --> 00:11:04.658] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) That's just how human beings work. It's also a reasonable expectation. [00:11:04.658 --> 00:11:08.073] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So you need a track record of being competent and being right. [00:11:08.073 --> 00:11:12.246] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I should go without saying that you should at least believe you are right or [00:11:12.246 --> 00:11:13.926] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) at least believe you are right. [00:11:14.246 --> 00:11:18.119] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) likely enough to be right, a size of impact that is worth the risk. [00:11:18.119 --> 00:11:21.194] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And that brings us to the second part, which is data. [00:11:21.194 --> 00:11:24.554] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You want to be able to prove it subjectively, objectively. [00:11:24.554 --> 00:11:28.541] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You need to have something. Generally, it is best to pose a question, [00:11:28.541 --> 00:11:32.015] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) to assume competency in the people that you are questioning. [00:11:32.015 --> 00:11:34.406] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) A question is the best way to get started. [00:11:34.566 --> 00:11:39.063] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Hey, have you thought about this? Or how do we know it's going to have that [00:11:39.063 --> 00:11:41.902] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) result? I was at the grocery store to pick up a [00:11:41.902 --> 00:11:46.162] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) frozen pizza for lunch today, and one of the people at Kroger who stand [00:11:46.162 --> 00:11:48.646] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) around operating the self-checkout things. [00:11:49.886 --> 00:11:52.339] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) She came up to me and started talking to me about SNAP, [00:11:52.339 --> 00:11:55.186] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) like the food stamp program, and asked if I had any relatives or [00:11:55.186 --> 00:11:58.296] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) friends, you used that program. And I said, no. It's like, okay, well, [00:11:58.296 --> 00:12:01.625] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I'm going around telling everybody that Kroger runs the 20% discount on all [00:12:01.625 --> 00:12:04.210] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) produce, fruits and vegetables, if you're in that program. [00:12:04.210 --> 00:12:06.312] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I think it's great. We don't have any signs up. [00:12:06.312 --> 00:12:08.590] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I told my manager, they're not having any signs up. [00:12:08.590 --> 00:12:12.006] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So I'm just walking around telling people now because I think it's important. [00:12:13.246 --> 00:12:14.126] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) What I am talking about. [00:12:15.126 --> 00:12:19.549] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) She gets it. She gets it. Nobody asked her to do that. [00:12:19.549 --> 00:12:25.659] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I thought that that was fantastic, and it was a perfect example of what I'm [00:12:25.659 --> 00:12:31.046] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) trying to indicate here. The last is relationships. And that is... [00:12:32.926 --> 00:12:36.992] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) The point I want to make here is how you say something is more important than what [00:12:36.992 --> 00:12:40.665] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you're saying. That's not obvious, and it will be obvious to everyone else [00:12:40.665 --> 00:12:44.486] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) around you. You can see in their response, especially when you're challenging [00:12:44.486 --> 00:12:46.445] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) somebody, you don't want to trigger the [00:12:46.445 --> 00:12:48.992] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) psychological immune system. If they get emotional, [00:12:48.992 --> 00:12:52.126] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) especially in front of other people, it's not going to go well. [00:12:52.646 --> 00:12:53.126] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So. [00:12:54.566 --> 00:12:58.613] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Talking to people generally, back channels first, trying to get allies, [00:12:58.613 --> 00:13:01.255] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) trying to ask questions, trying to understand, [00:13:01.255 --> 00:13:05.752] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and having the appearance of trying to understand. And not just the appearance, [00:13:05.752 --> 00:13:09.686] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but like genuinely also trying to understand is a great way to start. [00:13:10.726 --> 00:13:13.704] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And I think somebody mentioned this in the Q&A last time, [00:13:13.704 --> 00:13:16.153] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) is that if you just walk people through the logic, [00:13:16.153 --> 00:13:20.138] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you don't even have to tell them they're wrong. Most people are going to go, well, [00:13:20.138 --> 00:13:22.299] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) yeah. And then you're going to find the real [00:13:22.299 --> 00:13:24.940] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) reason that this is happening. And then at that point, [00:13:24.940 --> 00:13:27.485] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you can make a decision. And nobody risked anything. [00:13:27.485 --> 00:13:30.366] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So often things don't even get to a point of real conflict. [00:13:30.566 --> 00:13:33.116] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) However, when it does, it helps to have rapport. [00:13:33.116 --> 00:13:36.965] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It helps to have friends before you need them. Pretty basic stuff, right? [00:13:36.965 --> 00:13:39.046] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You're going to find a lot more success. [00:13:41.766 --> 00:13:44.703] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) There's a lot more to it, but we'll get to it later. [00:13:44.703 --> 00:13:49.246] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Make sure I don't run out of time here. All right. So this is more about culture. [00:13:49.246 --> 00:13:53.401] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) There are no small acts of defiance. When you push back in a thoughtful or [00:13:53.401 --> 00:13:56.060] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) empathetic way, also importantly, you're right. [00:13:56.060 --> 00:13:59.163] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Not so much that you're right, it's that it's affected. [00:13:59.163 --> 00:14:01.046] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) At the very least, the discussion. [00:14:01.606 --> 00:14:05.604] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) what change came out of this. It doesn't even matter that you're right, [00:14:05.604 --> 00:14:08.769] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) that it had a net positive result. When you are defiant, [00:14:08.769 --> 00:14:12.490] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I'm not going to do this, is probably not how you want to go about [00:14:12.490 --> 00:14:16.321] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) this. It's not a good start. I'm not saying that you should never do [00:14:16.321 --> 00:14:18.486] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) this. You should never outright say no. [00:14:20.646 --> 00:14:23.706] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) However, when you push back or you question or you [00:14:23.706 --> 00:14:26.586] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) get involved, especially outside your job role, [00:14:26.586 --> 00:14:31.086] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) no matter how small, pretty recently, somebody wanted to put an icon in an [00:14:31.086 --> 00:14:33.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) application. The icon, it looked like crap. [00:14:33.726 --> 00:14:38.226] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Like you couldn't understand what it was communicating. It was just noise. [00:14:38.226 --> 00:14:38.886] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It was bad. [00:14:40.086 --> 00:14:43.484] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) That's my personal opinion, but I did cite some actual reasons for [00:14:43.484 --> 00:14:45.766] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) why it was unreadable, how it wasn't useful. [00:14:48.086 --> 00:14:51.568] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This had nothing to do with me. I was like barely even involved in this [00:14:51.568 --> 00:14:54.276] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) task, but you know, sort of thoughtfully brought it up, [00:14:54.276 --> 00:14:57.902] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) made some suggestions how it should be changed. That's it. Like it seemed, [00:14:57.902 --> 00:15:01.432] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) why even say anything? It seems dumb. And if it's a total waste of time, [00:15:01.432 --> 00:15:04.140] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) obviously, you know, get your ROI out of this. However, [00:15:04.140 --> 00:15:07.766] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but when you do that kind of thing, you are showing the people around you. [00:15:08.326 --> 00:15:12.335] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) that it's okay to question. It's okay to have doubts about different [00:15:12.335 --> 00:15:15.299] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) parts of the process. How did we get to this idea? [00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:18.378] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) How do we know whether this is going to work or not? [00:15:18.378 --> 00:15:21.922] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Why are we investing so much in this? Help me understand it. [00:15:21.922 --> 00:15:26.105] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) When you do things like that, you're showing the people around you that [00:15:26.105 --> 00:15:26.686] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) it's okay. [00:15:27.926 --> 00:15:30.976] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) to be involved in other areas of the business. [00:15:30.976 --> 00:15:35.129] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It's okay to be involved in things that are just not your lane. [00:15:35.129 --> 00:15:38.893] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And human beings are complex, and we have a lot to offer. [00:15:38.893 --> 00:15:43.759] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) We're much more expressive than our single job role would have us believe. [00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:45.446] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Also, we need to be shown. [00:15:45.566 --> 00:15:47.603] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) We're experiential, so you change the culture, [00:15:47.603 --> 00:15:49.769] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and every time you do, you make it easier, right? [00:15:49.769 --> 00:15:53.234] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So you're making it easier for somebody else to question something big when you [00:15:53.234 --> 00:15:55.834] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) question something small, as long as how you're doing it is [00:15:55.834 --> 00:15:58.086] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) actually, you know, well-intentioned and effective. [00:15:59.286 --> 00:16:03.046] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) We can keep going. This is thinking beyond the job role of [00:16:03.046 --> 00:16:06.423] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) engineering in particular, but also everything else. [00:16:06.423 --> 00:16:10.246] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) How does this sort of behavior change how we work together? [00:16:11.606 --> 00:16:12.646] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) What does it mean for our life? [00:16:14.926 --> 00:16:18.539] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Cool. All right, so we talked about mostly reactive stuff [00:16:18.539 --> 00:16:21.591] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) for now, which is important and most we're going [00:16:21.591 --> 00:16:25.328] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) to face. However, you can do stuff that no one asked you to [00:16:25.328 --> 00:16:29.938] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) do. Spoiler, you're a free person. You don't have to do everything you're [00:16:29.938 --> 00:16:32.678] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) told. You will reap the consequences of not [00:16:32.678 --> 00:16:36.166] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) doing what you're told, so that's also true. However... [00:16:37.766 --> 00:16:39.920] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You can do things that nobody asked you to do. [00:16:39.920 --> 00:16:42.486] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This is easier because nobody's paying attention to it. [00:16:43.766 --> 00:16:46.493] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And I am of the belief that collectively as a society, [00:16:46.493 --> 00:16:49.071] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but also of course that permeates even our culture, [00:16:49.071 --> 00:16:52.739] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) especially in large organizations. We are severely deficient in proactive [00:16:52.739 --> 00:16:55.813] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) enthusiasm. That is, seeing a thing that could change and not [00:16:55.813 --> 00:16:58.540] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) just complaining about it at the water cooler, but no, [00:16:58.540 --> 00:17:02.406] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I'm actually going to take some steps. I'm going to start asking some people. [00:17:02.526 --> 00:17:05.585] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I'm gonna start, you know, putting some allies together, [00:17:05.585 --> 00:17:09.234] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) see what they think about this, making sure my understanding of the [00:17:09.234 --> 00:17:13.044] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) opportunity or problem is right. And then just start putting things in [00:17:13.044 --> 00:17:16.908] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) motion, start talking about it. You don't even necessarily have to act, [00:17:16.908 --> 00:17:17.766] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but you can. And [00:17:19.526 --> 00:17:23.488] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) We are very deficient in this. And a lot of this is just how things work [00:17:23.488 --> 00:17:27.504] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) in terms of a top-down structure and making sure that things are ordered. [00:17:27.504 --> 00:17:31.954] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) But that's very difficult in a changing environment when you can spin up software [00:17:31.954 --> 00:17:34.830] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) or various other products very quickly. AI assisted, [00:17:34.830 --> 00:17:38.086] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) particularly at the prototype and early development stages. [00:17:38.726 --> 00:17:41.553] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Very, very fast. When change happens so rapidly, [00:17:41.553 --> 00:17:44.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and in our industry, culturally, everything is moving. [00:17:45.846 --> 00:17:50.496] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It's difficult to have a very rigid, linear process for development. [00:17:50.496 --> 00:17:55.684] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You need people who are sort of lower on the chains, bottom-up intelligence, [00:17:55.684 --> 00:18:00.940] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) to identify opportunities and challenges and actually feel like they have the [00:18:00.940 --> 00:18:05.926] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) courage and the ability to do something about it. My advice is to just... [00:18:06.086 --> 00:18:08.956] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Try. Now, if you're going to act outside your job [00:18:08.956 --> 00:18:12.744] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) role, which I do many times, make sure you're doing your job well [00:18:12.744 --> 00:18:15.384] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) first. That should be without saying that you [00:18:15.384 --> 00:18:19.516] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) are at least doing your job well, and you're not causing more problems, [00:18:19.516 --> 00:18:23.017] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and you're also not neglecting your actual responsibilities, [00:18:23.017 --> 00:18:24.566] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) your core responsibilities. [00:18:25.446 --> 00:18:27.836] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I do think we have a greater responsibility. [00:18:27.836 --> 00:18:32.137] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And the last thing I'll say about that is my favorite approach is literally just [00:18:32.137 --> 00:18:36.173] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) picking higher level company goals. You know, like we had a goal last year, [00:18:36.173 --> 00:18:38.988] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I think, or whatever, increase marketplace vibrancy. [00:18:38.988 --> 00:18:41.749] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) That's your goal. You're on a specific thing with a [00:18:41.749 --> 00:18:44.192] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) specific task. But if you have free capacity, [00:18:44.192 --> 00:18:47.006] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) or you can just talk to people or get an idea going, [00:18:47.606 --> 00:18:51.339] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) That is your goal. You are responsible to higher level ideas [00:18:51.339 --> 00:18:56.051] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and values and company directives. And that is the easiest way to circumvent [00:18:56.051 --> 00:19:01.007] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) lower level sort of bad ideas or just complacency or nobody wants to take it on. [00:19:01.007 --> 00:19:05.903] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) If you are willing to supply the effort, you're willing to take a little bit of [00:19:05.903 --> 00:19:07.126] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) career capital risk, [00:19:08.326 --> 00:19:13.346] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and you can point to something that is aligned to company values somewhere, [00:19:13.346 --> 00:19:18.102] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) directive somewhere, you can do it. Just go do it. Don't worry so much. [00:19:18.102 --> 00:19:22.659] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) As long as you're being responsible and you're not negligent, again, [00:19:22.659 --> 00:19:25.962] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) don't figure it out. You know what the risks are. [00:19:25.962 --> 00:19:26.886] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Just go do it. [00:19:27.206 --> 00:19:31.668] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Don't worry about the billing codes. Tell your manager if you want to. [00:19:31.668 --> 00:19:35.689] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) But that is my advice. That's where most of the positive change [00:19:35.689 --> 00:19:39.710] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) that I've been able to create has come from. I just didn't ask. [00:19:39.710 --> 00:19:42.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I asked where I was concerned. But beyond that, [00:19:43.926 --> 00:19:48.156] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Just go try things or just make enough to show somebody, to inspire somebody. [00:19:48.156 --> 00:19:51.138] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It seems so simple, but this is just a reminder. Yeah, [00:19:51.138 --> 00:19:55.477] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you can do things that nobody asks you to do. Not only can you, but you should. [00:19:55.477 --> 00:19:56.886] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And I think that you have. [00:19:58.406 --> 00:19:59.526] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Every right to do so. [00:20:00.806 --> 00:20:05.486] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So say what you really mean in the next slide is also pretty related to this. [00:20:05.486 --> 00:20:08.426] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Chances are you know something that is valuable. [00:20:08.426 --> 00:20:13.286] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And do not discount that because it is outside of your lane, essentially. Again, [00:20:13.286 --> 00:20:17.666] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) however, there's always wait to, if you're going to go against the flow, [00:20:17.666 --> 00:20:20.786] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) which is fine, we need people to change the flow of [00:20:20.786 --> 00:20:21.206] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) things, [00:20:21.766 --> 00:20:23.526] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Just, you know, make sure. [00:20:24.566 --> 00:20:27.414] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you're likely to be right. You need to be effective. [00:20:27.414 --> 00:20:31.229] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) But say what you really mean, because if you don't say what you really [00:20:31.229 --> 00:20:34.507] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) mean, just like before, the friction and the pressure in the [00:20:34.507 --> 00:20:38.537] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) system, it always comes out somewhere. Chances are you're not the only one [00:20:38.537 --> 00:20:41.331] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) feeling it. I highly recommend that you are direct, [00:20:41.331 --> 00:20:43.910] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you're transparent, obviously non-inflammatory. [00:20:43.910 --> 00:20:46.166] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) How you say things really, really matters. [00:20:46.646 --> 00:20:51.830] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) As long as all those boxes are checked, I have never regretted speaking my mind. [00:20:51.830 --> 00:20:54.966] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And things almost always get better when you do. [00:20:57.686 --> 00:21:02.339] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Hand in hand with that is the next one. Oh, ask for what you really want. [00:21:02.339 --> 00:21:05.734] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This is a real crazy idea, but you are a free person. [00:21:05.734 --> 00:21:09.695] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And this organization, like every organization at every level, [00:21:09.695 --> 00:21:14.034] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) is just composed of people. And if those people don't say or ask for [00:21:14.034 --> 00:21:18.246] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) what they want in the way that they work, what they're working on, [00:21:18.526 --> 00:21:21.147] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) what they think matters, what they think is effective, [00:21:21.147 --> 00:21:24.243] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) how they think things could be improved, then it doesn't happen. [00:21:24.243 --> 00:21:28.150] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) What you're going to get is you're going to get the people who are willing to ask [00:21:28.150 --> 00:21:30.627] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) what they want, you're going to get what they want. [00:21:30.627 --> 00:21:33.057] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And if those are not aligned, well, that's on you. [00:21:33.057 --> 00:21:37.011] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So hopefully this helps in the sense that I believe there are only two things that [00:21:37.011 --> 00:21:38.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) actually matter here. Effectiveness. [00:21:38.766 --> 00:21:44.108] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and alignment, meaning to company goals, product goals, your role, moral, ethical, [00:21:44.108 --> 00:21:47.969] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) your personal values, as long as it's aligned and it works, [00:21:47.969 --> 00:21:52.796] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) literally everything else is just somebody's opinion. So that in practice, [00:21:52.796 --> 00:21:57.686] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) somebody else's opinion can matter a lot, depending on whose opinion it is. [00:21:57.966 --> 00:22:01.084] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So, you know, but it's important to remember that you [00:22:01.084 --> 00:22:05.702] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) can have what you want and you're only going to get it if you ask for it or you [00:22:05.702 --> 00:22:08.819] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) work for it. So if you feel strongly about something, [00:22:08.819 --> 00:22:13.437] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) whether it's a process change or whether it's a change in investment or product [00:22:13.437 --> 00:22:16.381] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) direction, don't be afraid to start a conversation [00:22:16.381 --> 00:22:17.766] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and start asking for it. [00:22:18.126 --> 00:22:21.186] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) At the very least, get it going. You don't have to come out the gate [00:22:21.186 --> 00:22:23.624] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) demanding stuff. That's probably not going to work out [00:22:23.624 --> 00:22:26.684] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) well. But that's my advice. Don't forget that you can change things. [00:22:26.684 --> 00:22:28.768] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Just a reminder. And every time you do, again, [00:22:28.768 --> 00:22:31.206] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you give everyone else a license to do the same thing. [00:22:32.286 --> 00:22:35.456] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) But even if it doesn't work, you may have inspired somebody. [00:22:35.456 --> 00:22:38.834] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So there's no separation. And I mentioned this last time between [00:22:38.834 --> 00:22:41.849] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) work and life. I don't see it that way. You should bring, [00:22:41.849 --> 00:22:45.798] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you should be getting something out of your work. So selfish, selflessness, [00:22:45.798 --> 00:22:48.708] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) meaning it is for me, but it's also for everybody else. [00:22:48.708 --> 00:22:52.086] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) That's a good way to live. And I think you should bring yourself [00:22:52.246 --> 00:22:54.874] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) into your work as much as you can, because again, [00:22:54.874 --> 00:22:58.711] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you're giving a license to other people around you to do the same thing. [00:22:58.711 --> 00:23:01.286] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This is a different kind of defiance. It is a... [00:23:02.366 --> 00:23:05.817] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This is who I want to be, how I want to act. And of course, [00:23:05.817 --> 00:23:09.325] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) it can cause problems, but you're giving license to everyone [00:23:09.325 --> 00:23:12.890] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) else to do the same. And it's creating more of a culture that [00:23:12.890 --> 00:23:16.973] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you're looking for. Of course, there is a risk. But this is my advice, [00:23:16.973 --> 00:23:19.791] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) which is if you feel things, if you want things, [00:23:19.791 --> 00:23:23.126] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) if you have things you need to say, especially when it is [00:23:23.326 --> 00:23:27.469] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) other people's interests. That's the selflessness part of that. [00:23:27.469 --> 00:23:31.677] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) It's in their interest as well. Just ask for it, just demand it. [00:23:31.677 --> 00:23:36.726] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And I think you'll be surprised by the results. That is my experience anyway. [00:23:38.966 --> 00:23:42.190] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) All right, I think there's one more, right? Here we go. Yeah, [00:23:42.190 --> 00:23:45.777] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I'll leave you with this actual part and then we will go into Q& [00:23:45.777 --> 00:23:48.584] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) A or discussion. Just you can tell me how wrong I am. [00:23:48.584 --> 00:23:51.912] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) All right, so that is, there's a moment coming for each of you. [00:23:51.912 --> 00:23:54.407] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I just, I just know it will happen because that [00:23:54.407 --> 00:23:57.526] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) just seems to be how reality works. Now that you know this, [00:23:58.006 --> 00:24:01.963] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Now that you're aware of this, there's an inflection point where some [00:24:01.963 --> 00:24:06.202] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) work you think is not worth doing or is counter to the actual goals of the [00:24:06.202 --> 00:24:09.706] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) product or the business or what the customer wants. Reactive, [00:24:09.706 --> 00:24:13.041] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) or you're going to see a problem and you're going to know, [00:24:13.041 --> 00:24:17.166] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I could probably do something about that. You're going to have a choice. [00:24:17.246 --> 00:24:20.248] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) This is a moment where you will have to decide, will I? [00:24:20.248 --> 00:24:23.302] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Am I going to do something or not? When I say something, [00:24:23.302 --> 00:24:26.625] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) am I going to ask a question? Am I going to get more context? [00:24:26.625 --> 00:24:30.912] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Assume competency in the other person. However, you're going to just ignore it. [00:24:30.912 --> 00:24:35.360] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You're going to quietly bury it and just move on and pretend that you did not know [00:24:35.360 --> 00:24:36.646] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) that you could have had. [00:24:37.206 --> 00:24:40.203] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) some small act of defiance here and made things better. [00:24:40.203 --> 00:24:44.590] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So it's really your choice in that moment. And I promise if you make that choice, [00:24:44.590 --> 00:24:49.138] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you will not be the same person afterward. And it will affect how you see everything [00:24:49.138 --> 00:24:52.562] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) in life and every challenge, especially the ones with conflict, [00:24:52.562 --> 00:24:53.846] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) especially the ones that [00:24:55.046 --> 00:24:58.721] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) feel right, but are not convenient for you. [00:24:58.721 --> 00:25:04.065] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And you will not regret, at least I have never regretted making [00:25:04.065 --> 00:25:10.162] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) the choice that was not convenient for me, but felt right at some level. [00:25:10.162 --> 00:25:14.086] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So that's the talk. Anyone have any questions? [00:25:14.726 --> 00:25:15.526] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Comments. [00:25:24.886 --> 00:25:26.486] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) We have a Greg. [00:25:30.486 --> 00:25:35.166] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) I love this, Steven. Thank you for doing it. I had a... [00:25:33.406 --> 00:25:33.846] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Okay. [00:25:36.446 --> 00:25:37.286] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) Mentor when I. [00:25:38.326 --> 00:25:39.686] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) I was much younger and had... [00:25:40.886 --> 00:25:43.206] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) First started my career at Cox who taught me that. [00:25:44.286 --> 00:25:47.545] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) If you're gonna wait for permission to do the right thing, [00:25:47.545 --> 00:25:50.086] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) you're probably gonna be waiting for a while. [00:25:51.446 --> 00:25:52.406] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) I love what you were. [00:25:53.446 --> 00:25:57.313] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) Saying about, you know, it's OK to do things that you can do more [00:25:57.313 --> 00:25:57.606] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) than. [00:25:58.926 --> 00:26:00.086] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) What you've been asked to do? [00:26:01.766 --> 00:26:04.566] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) But my question is, you talked a little bit about... [00:26:06.246 --> 00:26:07.126] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) Defiance. [00:26:08.006 --> 00:26:12.646] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) I'm wondering what your thoughts are about compliance. [00:26:14.886 --> 00:26:15.846] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I think that... [00:26:17.206 --> 00:26:20.697] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Most of what we do, as long as things are working, [00:26:20.697 --> 00:26:25.420] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) should be compliant, right? You don't want to introduce noise into a [00:26:25.420 --> 00:26:29.869] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) system, even just, you know, the medicine becomes worse than the [00:26:29.869 --> 00:26:34.250] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) poison. At some point, my thoughts are compliance should be the [00:26:34.250 --> 00:26:36.166] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) norm in a functional system. [00:26:36.486 --> 00:26:40.006] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You shouldn't need this out all that often, however. [00:26:41.286 --> 00:26:45.643] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I think it's important to know that we are individuals and that we should be [00:26:45.643 --> 00:26:49.491] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) able to express a defiance against the status quo or how things are [00:26:49.491 --> 00:26:51.981] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) traditionally done, or against complacency, [00:26:51.981 --> 00:26:55.885] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) just didn't do the research, or didn't put a lot of thought into it, [00:26:55.885 --> 00:26:59.620] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) or it was politically convenient for somebody else. This is easy, [00:26:59.620 --> 00:27:02.166] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) or it's too much work, or it takes too long. [00:27:02.686 --> 00:27:05.300] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Whatever. We should feel like we can be [00:27:05.300 --> 00:27:09.220] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) non-compliant without concern. Again, for the greater good, [00:27:09.220 --> 00:27:14.578] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) should be net positive, well-intentioned, without too much concern for ourselves, [00:27:13.526 --> 00:27:13.686] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) Mm. [00:27:14.578 --> 00:27:18.106] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) even if there is some. It does take a little courage, [00:27:18.106 --> 00:27:21.046] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but it should be compliant most of the time. [00:27:22.246 --> 00:27:27.176] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And a lot, so much of this is in the how, not the what you're doing. Oh, [00:27:27.176 --> 00:27:31.363] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I'm still here. That is my opinion. If you are non-compliant, [00:27:27.526 --> 00:27:28.006] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) Mhm. [00:27:31.363 --> 00:27:34.806] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) how you are non-compliant is very, very important. [00:27:35.846 --> 00:27:42.138] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) Yeah, I didn't want to lead the witness. And we don't have to go any further into [00:27:38.246 --> 00:27:38.646] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Sure. [00:27:42.138 --> 00:27:45.591] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) this, but I do wonder if a healthier system, [00:27:45.591 --> 00:27:48.966] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) if in a healthy system, would we rather see [00:27:52.486 --> 00:27:56.326] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) Active defiance over malicious compliance. [00:27:57.206 --> 00:28:01.143] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I would, personally, but I'm incredibly biased giving this [00:28:01.143 --> 00:28:05.479] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) speech. So I'd say yes, it depends. The more disordered you are, [00:28:04.966 --> 00:28:05.366] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) Okay. [00:28:05.479 --> 00:28:10.283] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) the more important it is that the people are individually competent and [00:28:10.283 --> 00:28:14.886] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) well-intentioned in a distributed system, I think, for most of them. [00:28:15.726 --> 00:28:19.405] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) hierarchy and structure and process make up for a lot of failings, [00:28:19.405 --> 00:28:23.083] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) some of which could be moral failings. That's definitely possible. [00:28:23.083 --> 00:28:26.980] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Whatever you want to call that. Not necessarily doing the wrong thing, [00:28:26.980 --> 00:28:31.482] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but being lazy or just taking a shortcut. You need higher quality people, really, [00:28:31.482 --> 00:28:34.446] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) if you're going to have more disorder, is my opinion. [00:28:36.206 --> 00:28:37.446] MacConnell, Rick (CAI - Atlanta) There, go ahead, Gregori. [00:28:39.686 --> 00:28:43.286] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Happy New Year, everyone. Very good talk. Haddad. [00:28:44.726 --> 00:28:47.731] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) A question, because I always recommend the team to [00:28:47.731 --> 00:28:50.560] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) speak up, but I think that is my personal bias, [00:28:50.560 --> 00:28:53.152] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) and I don't know, based on your experience, [00:28:53.152 --> 00:28:56.923] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) if that comply or it doesn't matter, always advise people like, [00:28:56.923 --> 00:29:01.754] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) it's okay to challenge an idea or person, but you also have to look at the forum. [00:29:01.754 --> 00:29:03.286] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) You know, if it's a 300... [00:29:03.526 --> 00:29:06.710] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) people, teams meeting at the end of a sprint [00:29:06.710 --> 00:29:10.884] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) review, you know, you speaking up or questioning may sound [00:29:10.884 --> 00:29:14.916] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) very different, but if it's like a one-on-one or a small [00:29:14.916 --> 00:29:20.646] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) group, so I always advise people to like, hey, a good question can sound very... [00:29:22.566 --> 00:29:26.552] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) destructive in the different forums. So like, do you have any recommendation? [00:29:26.552 --> 00:29:28.494] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Like, I always recommend start with a [00:29:28.494 --> 00:29:32.582] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) one-on-one or small group before you build up, but is it me being too cautious? [00:29:32.582 --> 00:29:34.166] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Like, what's your take on that? [00:29:36.166 --> 00:29:39.234] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So the delivery matters a lot, but yes, also the forum. [00:29:39.234 --> 00:29:42.467] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Like we are social creatures, right? Our reputation. Yeah, [00:29:41.926 --> 00:29:43.846] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) I know, but those are, yes. [00:29:42.467 --> 00:29:45.206] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) the threats to our reputation, perceived threats. [00:29:45.206 --> 00:29:48.383] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Perception is everything. There's only perception, right? [00:29:48.006 --> 00:29:49.526] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Yeah, yeah. [00:29:48.383 --> 00:29:52.657] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) So that matters. The forum matters. I think I mentioned this in the last talk [00:29:52.657 --> 00:29:56.930] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) that one of my favorite approaches in order to be able to challenge something [00:29:56.930 --> 00:29:59.943] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) that, you know, it doesn't have anything to do with me [00:29:59.686 --> 00:29:59.926] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Who? [00:29:59.943 --> 00:30:00.326] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) really. [00:30:00.646 --> 00:30:05.277] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) is to go talk to people who it is their thing to have something to do with this [00:30:05.277 --> 00:30:08.809] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and get their allegiance beforehand, make sure I understand, [00:30:08.809 --> 00:30:13.208] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) but also literally rope them in. Now it's not Steven. Now it's Steven plus, [00:30:12.046 --> 00:30:12.406] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Teri. [00:30:13.208 --> 00:30:16.103] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you know, the actual people who should care about [00:30:16.103 --> 00:30:19.286] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) this and bringing them to bear on the problem. And now [00:30:20.086 --> 00:30:23.586] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You cannot be written off. It's really not just a you thing. [00:30:23.586 --> 00:30:28.003] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) That is an easy approach that takes a little less individual risk and causes [00:30:28.003 --> 00:30:28.806] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) less problems. [00:30:29.366 --> 00:30:32.661] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Yeah, true, true. I was less concerned about the people [00:30:32.661 --> 00:30:35.956] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) asking the question. It's more the person receiving the [00:30:35.956 --> 00:30:40.545] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) question may feel more attacked if... No, it's just I think the forum kind of [00:30:37.686 --> 00:30:39.926] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) how not to feel attacked, is that what you're asking for? [00:30:40.545 --> 00:30:45.134] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) change people receive your question. You know, if I ask you a question about, [00:30:45.134 --> 00:30:47.782] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) hey, I don't think we're going to make money [00:30:47.782 --> 00:30:51.606] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) on that product at the coffee machine versus a one-on-one versus [00:30:52.326 --> 00:30:56.211] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) A team meeting with 300 people, people tend to react differently to the [00:30:56.211 --> 00:30:56.966] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) same question. [00:30:57.486 --> 00:31:00.299] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Yeah, the social cost is much higher to getting [00:30:59.686 --> 00:31:00.246] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Yeah, I am. [00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:04.693] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) it right. We all act differently in those. The easiest thing I can say is, [00:31:04.693 --> 00:31:08.911] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) it's all culture. Every time, we're all casting a vote with our actions [00:31:08.911 --> 00:31:12.192] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) all the time. So if people always react poorly in these [00:31:10.366 --> 00:31:10.966] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Mhm. [00:31:12.192 --> 00:31:15.649] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) kinds of settings, you better believe no one's going to be [00:31:15.649 --> 00:31:17.406] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) asking hard questions anymore. [00:31:17.606 --> 00:31:18.406] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) To. [00:31:17.766 --> 00:31:20.913] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Is that what you want? Because they're still asking them. [00:31:20.913 --> 00:31:25.199] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) They're just asking them quietly amongst each other and to themselves in their [00:31:25.199 --> 00:31:28.779] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) heads. And there would still be a problem. You've just buried it. [00:31:27.686 --> 00:31:28.246] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) True. [00:31:28.779 --> 00:31:31.871] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) And that's even worse. So what you want is to, you know, [00:31:31.871 --> 00:31:36.048] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you don't want to make things worse by overreacting or disincentivizing that [00:31:36.048 --> 00:31:39.086] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) kind of behavior. It's important to look at the intent. [00:31:39.846 --> 00:31:43.992] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) because there is a cost. Nobody, just like standing up and trying to make [00:31:43.992 --> 00:31:47.354] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) something better. If it works out or it has a good outcome, [00:31:47.354 --> 00:31:52.060] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) you don't have to be right. It has a good, worthwhile outcome, even the discussion, [00:31:48.726 --> 00:31:49.326] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Mm-hmm. [00:31:52.060 --> 00:31:56.542] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) people will be incentivized to do the same. They will feel safe to do the same. [00:31:56.542 --> 00:31:58.166] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) If the opposite happens, then [00:31:58.486 --> 00:32:01.426] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You better believe that people will not feel safe to do the same, [00:32:01.426 --> 00:32:02.406] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and it will get worse. [00:32:02.726 --> 00:32:06.106] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Yes, yes. And on the compliance comment before, [00:32:06.106 --> 00:32:11.669] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) the guideline I normally give my team is like, as long as it's ethical, legal, [00:32:11.669 --> 00:32:17.232] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) and you use the money and the capacity, like it's your own money and business, [00:32:17.232 --> 00:32:19.766] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) like I think most people should have [00:32:21.286 --> 00:32:25.654] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) the room to try. I think it's, I think I'm always concerned when people [00:32:25.654 --> 00:32:28.809] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) tell me they want to stay in their lane, like it's, [00:32:28.809 --> 00:32:31.902] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) because I think people tend to restrict, you know, [00:32:31.902 --> 00:32:36.391] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) make their lane smaller and smaller, and then we don't add as much value. [00:32:36.391 --> 00:32:39.606] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) So I always advise people that, I think if you like. [00:32:40.246 --> 00:32:45.260] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Consider, I think, which is your point, you know, that it's your own business, [00:32:45.260 --> 00:32:48.941] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) your own mission, and you want to make the best decision. [00:32:48.941 --> 00:32:51.606] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) I think we have more leeway than we think. [00:32:52.966 --> 00:32:57.042] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I would agree, especially if it works out, and especially if you're thoughtful [00:32:56.446 --> 00:32:56.886] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Yeah. [00:32:57.042 --> 00:33:01.375] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) enough and not wasteful and you can start to demonstrate that it could work, right? [00:33:00.246 --> 00:33:00.966] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) True, true. [00:33:01.375 --> 00:33:03.851] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) You know, you don't have to just bet everything [00:33:03.851 --> 00:33:06.998] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) immediately. Yeah, I would love to see more of that as well. [00:33:04.566 --> 00:33:05.046] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Yeah. [00:33:06.998 --> 00:33:10.609] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) But I think honestly, you know, just defines at the quality assurance [00:33:10.609 --> 00:33:13.446] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) level and saying, hey guys, this ain't ready. This was [00:33:13.846 --> 00:33:16.768] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) How do you even know this is going to work? It's totally fine, [00:33:14.006 --> 00:33:14.286] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Yeah. [00:33:16.768 --> 00:33:19.644] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) just between you and your four teammates. That is also great, [00:33:19.446 --> 00:33:20.406] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Chu. [00:33:19.644 --> 00:33:23.401] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) and I think we should see more of that. You don't necessarily need to go start a [00:33:23.401 --> 00:33:25.766] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) startup within Cox Auto in order to make a change. [00:33:26.166 --> 00:33:28.806] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Yeah, good point, good point. Thank you. [00:33:28.726 --> 00:33:32.246] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Yeah. Any other questions or comments? [00:33:38.246 --> 00:33:42.696] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Cool. I mentioned this on the last one. If you do any of this and you get [00:33:42.696 --> 00:33:46.063] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) positive results, please send me a message and tell me. [00:33:46.063 --> 00:33:49.310] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I won't share it or anything. I just, I want to know. [00:33:49.310 --> 00:33:54.120] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) I want to know if this worked for you. And hopefully you all found this useful. [00:33:54.120 --> 00:33:57.366] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) If you found it valuable, please let me know as well. [00:33:58.286 --> 00:34:01.732] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Because, you know, it's hard to read a crowd with a bunch of [00:34:01.732 --> 00:34:06.025] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) icons. But yeah, thanks for coming. Feel free to message me if you have any [00:34:06.025 --> 00:34:06.646] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) follow-ups. [00:34:07.126 --> 00:34:08.326] Faroux, Gregori (CAI - Mission) Thank you so much. Take care. [00:34:07.366 --> 00:34:10.720] Porter, Vicki (CAI - Burlington) Not us, and then thank you, Steven, while the translation gets taken care of [00:34:09.046 --> 00:34:09.846] Recce, Rocco (CAI - North Hills) Thank you. [00:34:10.720 --> 00:34:11.286] Porter, Vicki (CAI - Burlington) by some help. [00:34:11.526 --> 00:34:11.766] Schrembeck, Steven (CAI - Atlanta) Bye.